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Instant deed monsters.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by MoUsE_WiZ, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Instant deed monsters.

    Do allegedly bugged monsters improve on HC, or detract from it?
    Things like tomb vipers, nm fele, old msle.

    How about loading screen deaths from Durry back in the day?

    Yeah they're buggy, and if coded correctly likely wouldn't be nearly as threating, but does that mean they're a bad thing? You can still build/play correctly to avoid dying to them, and without them what would there be left to worry about?


    Do you want to see threats like these in D3?
    Preferably without the buggyness, but still with the same danger level.
     
  2. prion

    prion Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    no to the loading screen deaths. thats a technology issue and has no roleplaying element.
     
  3. 5zigen

    5zigen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I hope there are not these situations.

    Here's why.

    Games aren't fun when you aren't in control. See every gripe in wow about fear and stuns and CC. If you don't have control the game ceases to be fun.

    In HC, that effect is multiplied many times. If you aren't in control of whether your character lives or dies, it's a bad thing.

    Furthermore, let's take the example of Tomb Vipers. Enemies like this detract from the game experience. Why? Because for most people, it becomes insane to even approach nihilthak (even more insane than it was before tomb vipers). So essentially you are cutting a lot of the game out just so players can control if they live or die.

    So, I think these things are bad and generally detract from the game. Yes there should be dangerous enemies, but things that can kill you virtually unaware that you can do nothing to protect against aren't fun and don't add to the game in SC or HC.
     
  4. Hcorp

    Hcorp Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I totally agree with their decision to not fix Tomb Vipers. It makes running Nihlathak that much more of a challenge. All you need to do to circumvent it by getting pdr, and really, if you can't get pdr, you shouldn't be running Nihl. End of story.

    What I don't agree with is the Nightmare FE bug, because it's utterly ridiculous. You can have 75 FR, 4k life, and still die to NM council.
     
  5. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Agreed there.

    I was thinking something more like if durry's charge did enough damage to instantly kill anyone below gear level x when they enter, just without the loading screen.

    Eg a level 12 with like 6 rubies in their gear, and reasonable stam/level could expect to live through it, a level 24 in gear a level 24 would likely find questing could expect to live through it, but a level 18 in gear a level 18 could expect to find questing could expect to die instantly and with no chance.

    The thing with Tomb Vipers is that they're quite tame so long as you have the knowledge about how they're bugged. If the way they did damage was more widely known, they wouldn't scare so many people away, it just happens that it's not at all intuitive that their clouds work as they do.

    Say instead of their poison clouds being buggy, they just were set to a very high value over a short period of time... people without PR would be toast, but people with 75% would be sitting pretty, do you still think nihl runs would be intimidating?

    Another example, conviction gloams.
    I'm aware gloam damage is supposedly bugged higher than it should be, but it's not THAT high, it's still at a point where it could have conceivably been set there. But throw in conviction, make a lovely double or triple boss pack spawn, and it's instadeeds for anyone who isn't built with some stacked LR or absorb or both.

    People are afraid of gloams because they are a very dangerous monster, but despite being almost as dangerous as tomb vipers, they don't really slow down baal runs, because negating their damage is intuitive.



    Also - I would argue you are in control of your character.
    You are in control of building it in such away as to avoid being taken out of control.



     
  6. YSM

    YSM Banned

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I liked MSLE monsters because of the excitment and difficulty it brought to the table. You had to double-check every enchanted monster before whailing on them, or risk losing your character in an instant.

    It'd be cool if Blizzard incorporated extremely rare, but powerful monsters in Diablo III like the old MSLEs, to keep Hardcore players on their toes.


     
  7. 5zigen

    5zigen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Not really. a pack of extra strong fe le gloams with a convic boss near you can have you dead before you even see the mobs that will have killed you.

    Sorry, but mobs killing you when you cant even see them isn't you being in control.

    Same thing can happen with FELE mobs, or at least it could with the last patch but you didn't include them with your list of deadly mobs.

    You can build your character in such a way that you can avoid dying in some situations situations, but you cant avoid having that control taken away from you.

    Furthermore, requiring some gear to do parts of the game is really poor design, regardless of whether it's HC or SC. Why? Because again it is taking the control away from the player. You are no longer free to gear your character how you want, because now you're required to either use one of the two lit absorb items, or put sol in a bunch of sockets, or whatever the case may be.

    See, there's a difference between optimizing for a situation, and having a situation that requires a certain gear set. And in the case of things like old MSLE's, ESFE's, Tomb Vipers etc. It isn't a matter of OPTIMIZING to kill them, it's a matter of if you're geared wrong (and generally in a counterintuitive way) you're dead.

    It's simply poor design, and aside from that it really punishes people for being first to try something.



     
  8. jamesisbest

    jamesisbest Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I think instead of having bugged monsters that can one shot you the game should just occassionally have some really challenging areas/traps/scripted events so that when you are playing hardcore you will always be on edge and excited. Especially if you know a major challenge can pop out of nowhere at any time.
     
  9. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Sure it is, you built poorly, and played poorly.

    I did include FELE, actually. Just the NM ones which are still bugged, not the hell ones which were only bugged for a month or so. And even if I hadn't you can't expect me to list every dangerous circumstance.

    And the thing with them is, they're even simpler than the vipers or gloams to avoid dying to. It doesn't take long to figure out "don't stand next to things that explode when they die". As YSM mentioned with MSLE, it's just a matter of reading the mods on the monster and responding appropriately.

    You're not free to gear your character how you want ever. If you were you'd see a lot more naked pure curse necros trying to solo the game than just the one guy.

    However to avoid death to gloams you have more than 1 option. Stacking LR works fine. GA will do the trick. As will Los in gear. Walking the throne with a necro spamming DV off the screen turns them into jokes. You're forgetting the existence of Lightsabre. Stacked MDR helps too... Tgods or Wisp are just the optimal ways to do it.

    That's entirely untrue.
    Tomb Viper poison clouds don't do damage to you if you don't walk in them, by the way. I learned that trick before I learned about PDR, and I was soloing Nihl with that knowledge in mind without any PDR gear.

    Things that explode on death (or when they're hit) are 100% on the player to avoid.

    It also really rewards people for being the first to figure it out.



     
  10. nicro tower

    nicro tower Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    There's a reason you have to beat softcore once to get to hardcore. You figure out the basics of what to avoid (eg. explodey thingys and things that take out half your life in 1 hit), and you use what you learned to stay alive in hardcore. :p
     
  11. Morannon

    Morannon Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I think the berserker in the game play video at least indicate that Blizz are considering such monsters. It's good as long as those monsters make up for it by some weakness.

    Generally speaking I think it's pretty safe to say that the monsters in D3 will be a lot more diverse than before. Extremely hard hitting foes are surly a part of that.
     
  12. 5zigen

    5zigen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    I'll just adress this, while I disagree with a lot of the other stuff you posted. This 'sentiment' essentially destroys melee characters and really gets back to the fact that it's poor design choices to have things like this.

    Here's why it's bad design:

    In D2, it's hard to die. Thus, the only way to have the game have any danger at all in HC is to have monsters that will instadeeds your character whether it is or isn't in your control. This is acceptable, because if you could essentially avoid death just by playing well the game would lose a lot of it's risk and HC would lose a lot of the prestige.

    The thing is though, the only reason these mobs are needed are because it's so easy to avoid death for any character in any "normal" situation. Everyone has a skill on their skill bar at all times that can save them from all damage: It's called town portal and it casts nearly instantly.

    There's another way to avoid death entirely. S&Q. This isn't even cheating unless you're having a macro do it for you. But save and quit isn't even really a GAME mechanic (it's more of a UI mechanic).

    Why do these things work together? Because in D2 if you're always in control of your character and have a functioning brain you can avoid death in almost every 'normal situation' where you are in control. Thus, the only way to add any risk to the game is to take the control away from the player in the form of Dolls, Tomb Vipers FELE, ESFE (ancient), MSLE etc. The problem with these though are that they aren't garunteed deaths in most situations, and in particular they favor ranged characters greatly over melee characters.

    And in fact, we see that. Every melee character skips CS, Almost every character skips Durance, and almost everyone skills Nihilthak and WSK. So what's the result of adding these instagib monsters? Fewer people taking part in the content. And while it's neat to have stuff for elitists, this is basic content. And if there's anything that screams design flaw its stuff (basic stuff) that people refuse to play.

    Now, I have a feeling they're trying to amend the issues with melee characters simply not being able to deal with certain mobs, as it looked like in the demo there were several ranged barbarian skills.

    Additionally, they have the ability to solve the aforementioned design flaw: Giving every character 2 unlimited get out of jail free cards. If they take these away, there will generally be no need for the instadeeds monsters. Why? Because you're putting back into the game the danger that Diablo 2 was missing without any instadeeds monsters.


    P.S. The 'maulers'(?) seem cool. I hope they aren't plain old 1 hit kills if they are bosses in the hardest difficulty, but even if they were that type of thing is fine, because it's not excluding the game for any characters or builds and also wont require any specific items.



     
  13. TheDarkSide

    TheDarkSide Clan Officer - US East Hardcore

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    The question still begs to be answered ?? Will all the above mentioned Pally aura's even be in the game ? Will the Paladin and all his glorified methods of death even return ? Gloams without Conviction = meh , MSLE without Fanat = meh , the Paladin aura's made them all deadly one hit killers ..

    I vote for NO Paladin Character in D3 ....

    :whistling:
     
  14. coldsong

    coldsong Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    hhmm new thread time
     
  15. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Don't disagree.
    Maybe I'll make another thread about this seperately, but here's the thing, although the two mechanics change the way they game is played, they don't necessarily make it easier.
    If, say, you couldn't exit outside of town, and portals took 7 seconds to cast (interruptable or not, whatever), you wouldn't be able to rush through everything and have a gaurenteed escape path for yourself.
    Solution?
    Just don't rush through everything quite as quickly, make sure it's still always clear behind you, you'll still be able to just turn and run. If they were suddenly to implement a change like that in D2 it'd take some getting used to, and I'm sure it'd get people killed, but if it had been there from the start, given how long the game's been out, we'd all have the concept down to a science and still nobody would die to regular boring monsters.

    In other words - making the game slower is not making the game harder.

    Vipers and gloams both favour melee over ranged, actually. Gloams have this habit of emptying mana pools very quickly, and melee has more room to keep res/hp up while stacking PDR to survive poison clouds. Without PDR then vipers favour ranged as ranged doesn't have to move in the clouds to kill them, with PDR, baba all the way.
    Dolls are fast enough that they'll equally surround and kill anyone who pops a few at once.
    FE (in NM, hell it's not so scary) does favour range, but the number of monsters that are going to make a large pop is small enough that mercs can tank them and you can play through with reasonable time.

    There's a reason I haven't listed IM yet for a reason, it's terrible.
    And it's the reason melee skips CS and sits in a corner in the throne.
    It's not insurmountable, but it's much more limiting to melee in general than anything I've listed so far, which wouldn't be so bad except there's no equivalent for casters. They tried with blood mana, but even when it's cast it's a joke beside IM, and even if it weren't, it's too easy to ensure it's never cast.

    As for content skipping? That's not so much because it's tough as because it's profitable.
    Why does nobody run meph on anything that isn't a sorc? Because it takes a couple days to build a sorc, then you can run it 100xs faster. It's not because of dolls. People used to run it on anything back before they made durance 2 giant.
    CS would be skipped by most people as well because it's less exp than baal runs unless you're 97-98 and most of your exp comes from Diablo/Baal.
    People skip the WSK because it's the throne that gives exp/drops.

    Gameplay flaw? Arguably. I hate having to kill things that don't drop loot and I'd argue against it. Fault of monsters? Not at all... just their drops.


    I think that's more to add more variety to the gameplay than anything else, but I could be wrong.

    Disagree, as mentioned, making the game more dangerous to madly rushing through packs of monsters isn't making the game more dangerous, just changing the way it's played.



     
  16. Tai.

    Tai. Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Personally I'd argue that Dolls are worse for Ranged than melee. Javazons (my class of choice) tend to chuck javs and have them off 4 dolls right as they close in on yourself or another player, it's worse for Hammerdins. True Sorcs can Glacial Spike them or tele back, but often you have to tele multiple times to get enough space to be safe. Melee characters like, for example, a Conc Barb can tank their basic attack and only kill one at a time. On top of this they tend to have higher life/DR and I don't often see barbs go down to Dolls, rather FELE owns them.
     
  17. MoUsE_WiZ

    MoUsE_WiZ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    There's more melee out there than just barbies though, dolls are a bit trickier for, say, a zealot than a conc barb, as there's less survivability and less ability to kill one at a time.



     
  18. MYK

    MYK Diablo: IncGamers Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    As much as I'd like to agree that the Instant deeds monsters suck... They're not all that bad.

    Gloams are mean because they do a TON of damage if you're used to wearing Thundergod's Vigor. If you haven't a proper skill to avoid/decrease the damage from these, then party up. I almost dislike TGod's because of how impervious it makes you to one of the scarier monsters in the game.

    Bugged Vipers suck, but as MoUsE points out, the trick is standing still for a few seconds. PDR gear in this case is super powerful - You're, again, negating an attack that would normally wtfpwn your character.

    Dolls are tough if you have low vitality and a powerful attack (Think Sorcs and Bowazons), but partying up solves that, or using your defensive abilities better. Obviously you might not want to zeal around them, or whirlwind/LF/Strafe while they're on your toes. Running Sanctuary, Concentrate, using decoy+Valk for distance.

    Point is, almost every WTFpwnd monster can be defused. It's not always easy, but if we wanted easy we'd stick to normal mode for eternity...Most classes have abilities to defuse such situations, just a lot of people don't use them or don't know how.

    The problem, I think, is that there aren't enough powerful monsters. There's way too many that just fold over when looked at, and that makes the ones that are tough really tough.
     
  19. 5zigen

    5zigen Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    Mouse, I think you made some good points there and we agree on some stuff. It seems you do think things like IM are over the edge, which I agree with.

    I don't think this is the case. While it looks like it adds more variety to the game, it does more to inhibit the game than anything.

    Let's imagine a world where characters couldn't be "rushed" through places (I know that situation requires it's own debate). In that case, there are several places where melee characters become useless, most notably in the CS and WSK.

    Now, if there was no way to rush past them, you would have no choice but to leech while someone else does the work and you watch, or die repeatedly trying to go through it because your character only has melee skills and in HC with permanent death that means you can only watch someone else play the area for you.

    Sure it adds variety, but in general it detracts from the experience of a player who is playing a pure melee character. It's fine if it's harder for melee characters, yes, that adds a good kind of variety as long as some areas are easier for them. But to make areas that are essentially impossible for melee detracts from the game experience.

    While I agree with this sort of, there would still be the frantic feeling of the game. It would really make monsters who were Extra Fast, and Teleporting actually dangerous.

    And admittedly, a change like this would also require a change in the mob AI, but this wouldnt be that bad, as D1 had great monster AI. If they cant even match the AI from D1 (where mobs try and surround you) then they should be sort of ashamed heh.


    I'm glad you made the post MYK. I think you're right on things a bit.


    If defusing the instadeeds monsters was doable for every class based on skills, not gear, then I would think it's a non issue. But having it based on gear almost entirely is what really bothers me.

    I agree with this too. The big problem with things like fele's msle's et al is that they slow the game down in a way that's not really intutitive. Everything else simply dies when you shoot it, it would make sense to do the same thing to these bosses, but they dont work the same way, which makes them more hazardous, simply because they catch people off guard and you have to be looking for something specific in a pack of monsters to catch it.

    If all the monsters were a little more threatening I think it wouldn't be as necessary to have these randomly placed instant deaths.

    The real trick is how do you make monsters more threatening without making them all instant kill you monsters.



     
  20. Arkansaw

    Arkansaw Banned

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    Re: Instant deed monsters.

    A lot of the instant death monsters pple are talking about here are actually unintended bugs that were deemed as not worthy of a complete fix
     

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