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Input needed on anti-caster pvp kicker build (Mageslayer)

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by chaos9, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Input needed on anti-caster pvp kicker build (Mageslayer)

    I am trying to develop a new variant of the popular pvp kicker build, and I could use some input. The following information is not intended as a guide but as a starting point to get some feedback from those of you with way more pvp experience than I have.

    Introduction
    The primary goal of this build is to make a pvp sin that will specialize in fighting casters. Initially, the build will be focused on sorceresses, but I hope to make it viable against all types of casters. I do not plan to fight melee chars with this build, so I am not concerned about weaknesses in that area. Given this focus, the build will be c/c. The ability to block magic attacks, especially while running, is simply too good to pass up.

    An important constraint in designing this build is that I do not want more than 1 point in any particular trap skill. I am not interested in building a trapper or a hybrid. Trappers are great but involve an entirely different build. IMO, hybrids are too weak to be effective against players used to dueling trappers. The sacrifices one must make in a hybrid result in underpowered traps or a lack of important shadow skills. Thus, if traps are used in this build, it is only for stun-lock.

    Skills
    My tentative plan for skills can be divided into core skills and secondary skills. As I see it, the core skills are absolutely essential and cannot be modified. On the other hand, the secondary skills involve much more flexibility (and also less certainty on my part).

    Core Skills
    The core skills for this build are:

    Dtalon - 20 points
    This is the main attack just like in all pvp kicker builds.

    Weapon Block - 8 to 15 points
    The goal is to reach slvl 26 after all +skill items, giving 60% block.

    Mind Blast - 1point+
    Everyone agrees that MB is one of the most important strengths of playing a sin. If my plan was to make a well-rounded pvp sin who could duel melee chars too, I would put as many points as possible here and not doubt its utility for a second. With this anti-caster build, I have not yet figured out how many points are necessary here.

    Dflight - 1 point (or 20)
    Having 1 point in Dflight is essential, but maxing this skill may be useful. Honestly, I haven’t made up my mind here yet and need to do more testing. Clearly, pumping Dflight gives you a large increase in damage and offers the potential to drain a significant amount of life on your fist hit. The difficulty is that if you max this, you are giving up a secondary skill that may end up being more useful.

    Shadow Master - 1 point
    Little more than a distraction in 1.10, but still useful enough for 1 point.

    Secondary Skills
    Secondary skills include:

    BoS - 1 point
    One point here should be plenty with +skills. Although it seems obvious that one should use fade instead of BoS when fighting a sorc, it actually seems to depend on where you are fighting. In norm, r/w speed seems more important because your resists will already be maxed. If you are fast enough, it becomes very difficult for the sorc to even hit you. Once you get to nightmare and hell, fade will become much more necessary.

    Fade - 1 point+
    Assuming that duels will take place in hell or nightmare, having at least 1 point in fade is necessary for the added resistances. However, it is not yet clear to me how many points will ultimately be needed here. Since the build is designed to go against casters, it seems that fade is a potential skill to max. Tentatively, my plan is to put enough points in fade to bring my resistances to a reasonable level with all my gear on. Since I am still collecting resist charms, I haven’t yet figured out what that number will be.

    Venom - 0 or 20 points
    This one is a big controversy, not just for me but for this entire forum. I have been following the discussions here on venom for a couple months, and it is clear that there is no agreement. Some people swear by it and would put it under the core skills for any kicker. Others view it as worthless because of the pvp penalty and poison resist. Although I have been convinced by the many threads in this forum that maxing venom makes more sense than say maxing LS (without any synergies), I haven’t put any points in it yet.

    Lightning Sentry or Wake of Fire - 1 point in one or the other
    Putting one point in either LS or WoF for the stun-lock seems wise. In general, WoF is preferred, but I wonder if LS might be a better choice for this particular build.

    Potential Builds
    Looking over the various skill possibilities, it seems that there are a few options to consider (probably some I haven’t thought of yet).

    Option #1
    In addition to the core skills above, max dflight and venom. This build would be about using dflight, venom, and a malice claw to make the most of that initial hit. Without a high investment in fade, it seems that this would have to be more of a hit-and-run style of play. My concern here is that the sorc would just keep casting blizzard or meteor on herself, making those dflights dangerous.

    Option #2
    In addition to the core skills above, max fade and either dflight or venom. This would maximize resistances, permitting the sin to take some hits. With the dflight version, the focus is on the initial hit. With the venom version, you dflight in and dtalon while using fade as defense.

    Option #3
    In addition to the core skills above, put 10-20 in MB and max venom or dflight. This would involve a different style of play that would be all about stun-locking the target first and then dflighting in for the attack. The concern here is that I am not sure how easy it would be to stun-lock a decent sorc.

    Gear
    The only specific recommendations I’ll give so far would be to use malice and jade claws. The resists from jade will help a lot, and malice gives you the open wounds. Otherwise, you are looking for resists, cannot be frozen, and absorb. I really don’t see the gear being very different from what is recommended in the other guides except that resists become your most important concern.
     
  2. Anidem

    Anidem Banned

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    If this is gonna be a sorc killer id rely on the defensive capabilities against elements. Jade are nice but you might be betteroff looking for items that either give you absorb or raise max resist. unlike melee were the Dr is capped with sorcs you can pretty much nullify any damage capability with cheapo gear like Ithras set (+10 max all res.) light saber ravenfrost. a 3 um shield if your lucky it alread is purple as a bonus.
    As a bonus you really only have to worry about lightning and cold cuz if you need help beating a fire sorc PvP then....Well....Mabye you can find a Druid Built on raven to Play war with.
     
  3. C-Beat

    C-Beat IncGamers Member

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    I'm planing a similar build, though allround. For casters you basicly want 3 things:
    1) A good dmg DFlight. This is the attack you will use with some sort of fast-in-fast-out tactic. You dont wanna be close to a nec or sorc when they attack.
    2) Venom. This upps your Dflight dmg alot.
    3) Open Wounds. This is a real killer. At high levels this will deal massive amounts of damage over a few seconds. By the way, is OW effected by pdr?

    C-Beat
     
  4. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    If your goal is to kill CASTERS, and not necessarily other char types, you need to consider a few things.

    1. The good ones will have teleport; sorcs by nature, everyone else via enigma.
    2. You need fast cast on your mind blast. You need at least 65 fast cast on your MB. Otherwise the MB animation takes too long.
    3. WoF is the only trap you can use to hold an enigma teleporter. LS might drain a sorc's mana, but not an enigma user. They will be long gone. WoF + MB is by far the best choice.
    4. You need a fairly high level MB in order to keep the swirlies on them a long time. You will lay traps and try to snag them as they teleport past. Your best bet is to have the traps out and firing and get a hit in with MB. At this point they will have momentary stun from the WoF+MB combo. You then have to spam traps around them, MB a couple more times and DF (or teleport) in to kick them.

    Last: Consider getting enigma. Teleporting necs with decent command of bone prison wil **** you if you don't have an escape route. If not enigma, then get an ammy with teleport charges. You have to be able to escape from BP and DF will rarely do the trick. They are either spamming BS off the screen or teleporting around you and spamming BS. In either case, you will die 90% of the time.

    Maxing DF is a mistake. 1 point is enough. They will block it 75% of the time and you will rarely get an opportunity to use it enough in a dual to make a huge diff. Back when you could dragon flight two screens away with name-lock it was worth it, now, it's not. At all.
     
  5. Anidem

    Anidem Banned

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    the best way to utilize Df is as a tool to close the range for Dtalon. Hit Df and during the dely scroll to DTalon and get the mouse back to the middle of screen to be ready to let the kicks fly. And if DF hits I all the better!
     
  6. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    Which is why only 1 point is needed. We are in agreement.
     
  7. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Your arguments about dflight make sense. Sounds like more than 1 point here is a waste. Now that we have agreed on that, what do you think about venom, mind blast, and fade? If I had to pick 2 to go with WB and dtalon, which would you suggest?
     
  8. Crazy Person

    Crazy Person Banned

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    IMO a WW sin gets the job done much better and saves you more points to try new and unique builds.
     
  9. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    What type of gloves would you recommend for this build? I think I have all the rest of my gear, but I can't decide which gloves to use.
     
  10. Pit_Spawn

    Pit_Spawn IncGamers Member

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    Re:

    Trang Ouls 1.10 gloves if your using Venom.
     
  11. belth

    belth IncGamers Member

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    But if you go with Chaos claws, you are a WW-sin... :xflash:
     
  12. belth

    belth IncGamers Member

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    Go with Fade and Guardian Angel as armor, 90% resist all is a must against those elemental casters. 75% resists suck, with 90% you can take hits from Black Souls for all day long and propably everyone knows how annoying those are...
     
  13. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    I guess the bonus on these gloves must be hidden. I have two pairs, and neither says anything about enhancing poison damage.
     
  14. Crazy Person

    Crazy Person Banned

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    1.10 trang gloves (as in not 1.09 trang gloves) give +25% poison dmg. thats a huge bonus.
     
  15. chaos9

    chaos9 IncGamers Member

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    Mageslayer v1.5

    Based on feedback here (and from many other threads), I have made some decisions about this build and resolved some of the issues I originally raised.

    Introduction
    The primary goal of this build is to make a pvp kicksin that will specialize in fighting casters. My primary target is the sorceress, but the build should be viable against other casters with various gear modifications. I do not plan to fight melee chars with this build, so I am not concerned about weaknesses in that area. However, as I will note below, I have been impressed with how well this build handles melee chars in my early testing.

    Given the focus on casters, the build will be c/c. The ability to block magic attacks, especially while running, is simply too good to pass up. Trappers and hybrid (kick + trap) builds are viable alternatives, but this build uses traps only for stun-lock.

    Skills
    Even without traps, this build is fairly flexible. Thus, I am presenting the skill section in two parts: core skills and secondary skills. The core skills are what makes this build, and the secondary skills are where the flexibility comes in.

    Core Skills

    Dtalon - 20 points
    This is the main attack just like in all pvp kicker builds. It should be the first skill maxed.

    Weapon Block - 8 to 15 points
    WB is your primary defensive skill and source of blocking. The goal is to reach slvl 26 after all +skill items, giving 60% block. Figure out how many +skill items you will have, and determine the exact point investment accordingly. Maxing this skill is going to be a waste of points unless you have no +skill items.

    Mind Blast - 1point+
    MB is one of the most important strengths of playing a sin. For the mageslayer build, I suggest 1 point here as soon as you obtain the skill. If you decide to add additional points, you should do so only after all other skills are developed. The more likely it is that you will duel melee chars, the more points you will probably want here. However, like WB, you will probably be getting a tremendous boost from +skill items.

    Dflight - 1 point+
    Having 1 point in Dflight is essential. This is the only way you are going to be able to reach most casters, and it is a great skill for hitting moving targets. 1 point is enough if you plan to use dflight only as a means of transportation. However, maxing dflight results in a considerable boost to its damage. Assuming you can hit your target, maxed dflight (especially with maxed venom and open wounds) will put s serious dent in the opponents life. The problem is that even with dflight maxed, you are only going to hit 25% of the time against someone with max block who is standing still. Of course, the second your target is running, everything changes, and your odds of hitting with dflight go way up. Thus, dflight is a great skill for killing those opponents who realize they underestimated you and try to make a run for it. My recommendation is to start with 1 point and hold off on any more until your other skills and gear are complete. At that point, it should be more clear to you whether more points here will help.

    Shadow Master - 1 point
    Little more than a distraction in 1.10, but still useful enough for 1 point.

    Secondary Skills
    Secondary skills include:

    BoS - 1 point
    One point here should be plenty with +skills. Although it seems obvious that one should use fade instead of BoS when fighting a sorc, it actually seems to depend on where you are fighting. In norm, r/w speed seems more important because your resists will already be maxed. If you are fast enough, it becomes very difficult for the opponent to even hit you. Once you get to nightmare and hell, fade will become much more necessary.

    Fade - 1 point+
    Assuming that duels will take place in hell or nightmare, having at least 1 point in fade is necessary for the added resistances and shorter curse duration. How many points to put here beyond 1 will depend on what your resists look like in whatever difficulty level you plan to duel. While some may benefit from maxing this skill, others will have good enough resists and/or +skill items that this won’t be necessary. Thus, I suggest waiting on fade until your gear is finished and you have a sense of how much you will need. Of course, if you want to start dueling earlier, it will not hurt to put 5-10 in fade.

    Venom - 0 or 20 points
    This is the most controversial sin skill, and you have probably already many debates about the pros and cons of venom for pvp. I too have been following these discussions, and it seems clear that the majority recommend it for pvp kicksins. My recommendation is to max venom.

    Wake of Fire - 1 point
    WoF is superior to LS for stun-lock, and this is the only reason you are using it.
     

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