Infinity vs Kelpie Snare Fishymancer

[hackedagainanda]

The slow is great when combined with decrepify but, the conviction aura and huge damage boost are also nice.

What are your thoughts SPF?

 

[endlesscircuit]

Infinity is far far better for almost all gameplay. Key to maintaining the effectiveness of CE at players 8. I only find Kelpie useful for act bosses, but even there it's overkill. Clay + Decrepify is enough to slow them to a crawl already.

 

[Darkthrone]

I agree, Infinity is... infinityly better I would even use Insight over Kelpie Snare for a fishymancer. And if you happen to summon some mages and get cold ones, you can slow down bosses that much more.

 

[Greebo]

The problem with skellies at later stages of Hell is mostly Attack Rating. With insane level of skellies, they barely do enough damage to keep up with monster regeneration, and that's mostly because of the low AR (4.5k). Conviction helps a lot with that - also for the moron, and then there's effects to CE at higher player settings, as well as 40% CB on the moron.

Really, Kelpie is for safety. And it is excellent for that. A bit of an overkill in my opinion and if you learn to use curses well, you really don't need it.

 

[Darkthrone]

If you have sufficient +skills gear skeletons will mow down anything that's not physically immune and cursed.

 

[pharphis]

As some others have said kelpie is useless on a necro because they have the decrepify curse and even clay golem if needed. Better to have a harder hitting weapon or better utility like insight/infinity/pride

 

[krischan]

Clay + Decrepify is enough to slow them to a crawl already.

Only if the clay golem attacks or is attacked. To ensure that, the necro needs Enigma in order to place and sync the minions right before the act boss (or cast TP right before the enemy and go through it back and forth). That would be another 2 HRs in addition to those two for Infinity. However, runes usually aren't as abundant in SP as they are on bnet, so I would hesitate a bit to give that runeword to a skelemancer mercs rather than one of a sorc or javazon.

Besides, the quickest way to kill in hell is to produce 1-3 corpses and then cast CE until everything is dead, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the killing effectivity of the skeletons when not fighting tough monsters, like Diablo and Baal.

 

[nulio]

Recasting the CG on top of the Act Boss should do the trick.

 

[krischan]

Yes, that might work, but I'm not sure. Anyway, a Kelpie Snare slows by 75%, a value which even a L50 clay golem won't reach.

Whatever, the Kelpie Snare effect doesn't stack with both decrep and the clay golem AFAIK. It probably cancels out with the golem, else the necro could cast amp instead and let the golem + Kelpie snare do the slowing.

 

[Darkthrone]

I have never had a problem with placing my clay golems around act bosses without Enigma. Casting it on top of the boss works (at least) most of the time.

No town portal is needed either; when you approach the boss, your army generally lags behind you, so you have plenty of room to cast ahead of your group. Just cast the golem ahead on top of the boss and you'll be fine.

 

[krischan]

I generally agree, as I played a few summon necroes without Enigma, but I made that the experience that versus Baal, it might be a problem that the minions will distribute between him and his tentacles and perhaps his clone. Versus Diablo, it may lead to a couple of them being killed by his breath or firestorm before they reach him.

So well, yeah, it's less dramatic as I described it at first

 

[Darkthrone]

Yeah the tentacles with Baal can be annoying, but they're generally killed pretty easy. Maybe I am just used to having a ton of +skills so I am spoiled . With Battle Command I have a level 40 Raise Skeleton, so they're pretty resilient even against Diablo's lightning. Firestorm is a non-factor. I also find that Diablo tends to concentrate more on the golem and your mercenary.

 

[onderduiker]

However, runes usually aren't as abundant in SP as they are on bnet, so I would hesitate a bit to give that runeword to a skelemancer mercs rather than one of a sorc or javazon.

Since 1.13 this is debateable, because in SP Lower Kurast and Travincal can be run at a speed that would quickly result in temporary bans online. It's also much quicker, easier and more reliable to transfer an item between characters in SP using ATMA or GoMule, so one Infinity polearm could serve multiple characters unless you change between them on too a regular basis.

Besides, the quickest way to kill in hell is to produce 1-3 corpses and then cast CE until everything is dead, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the killing effectivity of the skeletons when not fighting tough monsters, like Diablo and Baal.

True, but Level 12 Conviction Aura When Equipped also applies Fire Resist -85% and Corpse Explosion converts 50% of its damage to fire, so improving Necroskeleton chance to hit certainly isn't the only (or even the main) reason for your mercenary to equip an Infinity polearm. It also has 40% Chance of Crushing Blow to apply to Act bosses, whereas Kelpie Snare's Slows Target 75% is always partially redundant against them, and always redundant if a Clay Golem is summoned...

Yes, that might work, but I'm not sure. Anyway, a Kelpie Snare slows by 75%, a value which even a L50 clay golem won't reach.

Whatever, the Kelpie Snare effect doesn't stack with both decrep and the clay golem AFAIK. It probably cancels out with the golem, else the necro could cast amp instead and let the golem + Kelpie snare do the slowing.

Clay Golem also applies Slows Target, and since it's a separate source it doesn't stack with any applied by your mercenary. ST has a 50% ceiling against Champion, Unique, Super Unique and boss monsters so level > 10 (51%) is redundant against them; in fact, when combined with Decrepify (50%), level > 5 (37%) is usually redundant since attack speed has a 15% (-85%) floor.

 

[krischan]

Hmm, I still don't know enough all about this, so I will try to put an end to that by asking about complete information, even though this might be a bit repetitive.

I think there are the follwing kinds of slowing:

1. "Slows target by x%" (Kelpie, clay golem)
2. Decrep (always 50%)
3. Chilling by cold damage (always 50%)

"Slows target by" stacks if multiple effects like that are on the same character. The cap is 75% for regular monsters, else 50%, correct? Multiple chilling sources don't add up slowing, but the durations of different sources add up.

Freezing enemies in place is a different thing and only regular monsters are affected in full while it counts as chilling by cold damage for bosses etc., right?

To determine speed, the values (1-x/100) of each kind are multiplied. Regular monsters have a 75% cap on "slows target by" and bosses etc. have a 50% cap on each kind plus a 85% cap on the product, correct?

There must be at least 3 kinds of slowing, else the 85% cap for bosses wouldn't be needed in addition.

In which way does it affect attack speed? Is it a separate multipier, is it like reverse fanaticism or is it (unlikely) like negative IAS?

 

[onderduiker]

Players can reduce enemy attack and walk/run speeds in four ways:

• Cold length (0-50%, dependent on enemy chill effectiveness)
• Holy Freeze (0-50%, dependent on enemy chill effectiveness)
• Decrepify (50% unless enemy cannot be cursed)
• Slows Target (90% ceiling against normal and minion monsters, otherwise 50% ceiling)

Attack speed can be reduced to a 15% floor, while walk/run speeds have a floor of 25% walk speed.

Freeze length and Freezes Target chill rather than freeze when applied to all types of bosses, and applying more than one of cold length, freeze length or Freezes Target is no different to applying just one (although each still applies for its own length, with the exception of the freeze lengths of Ice Arrow or Freezing Arrow and any item cold length).

Normally these reductions are simply summed and then subtracted from any speed increases, so for example the net effect of level 11 Fanaticism (+31%) and Decrepify (-50%) is -19%. Increased Attack Speed is normally converted to effective IAS or +% attack speed by a diminishing returns formula, so countering Decrepify at 100% attack speed would normally require 86 IAS (since {120*50 / 120-50} = 86).

 

[krischan]

Thanks !