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Increasing my efficiency in D2

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by T72on1, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    As the title implies, I want to increase my efficiency. Mainly efficiency in finding stuff, but also some other things, like gaining xp. Problem is, I thought I had it all structured in my head, but now that I'm finally making this post, my head is like complete chaos. Here it goes anyway.

    First a little bit of background, just so you know where I come from, and which bad habits I had and still have to get rid off. Back when I started playing D2, a bit after the game got released, I didn't have any internet at home. So I didn't read anything about build guides, mf guides, game mechanics, ... I just played the game as it was, without muling programs, runeword mod (would have been hard in 1.00 :rolleyes:), ... And I always did full clears, doing all side areas, and often opening all chests and a lot of other poppables. Needless to say that getting through the game took me ages.

    Fast forward to this day, I have gotten rid of most of those very inefficient things. Since getting internet and joining the Basin in 2007, I have been reading a lot about game mechanics, mf, ... and have learnt a lot by reading posts from and playing with a fellow Basin and SPF member I used to do MP games with. Still the completionist in me sometimes has a hard time leaving all those urns, barrels, ... alone, or killing nothing but the bosses in a level when doing mf runs.

    So long story short: inefficiency used to be my middle name, but I'm working on it, and have gotten rid of most really bad habits.

    On to the issue at hand: nothing is perfect, and in my case there is still plenty to improve, I'm sure. I have been reading a lot on mf runs, rune finding runs, build guides, .... but I have a hard time not mixing things up. So I'll ask some questions here, post some statements as I think they are right, in the hope that you guys and girls will correct me if wrong (and I'm aware some of my statements will be terribly wrong :oops:), and hopefully the end result will be a more efficient T72on1 :).

    Like I said, I wanted this to be structured, but for some reason I seem to have forgotten most I wanted to post in the first place :confused:. So expect more questions / statements along the way. Here goes:

    • this (and the following discussion thread) is a fairly comprehensive and accurate list of efficient mf characters; other characters can work, but not nearly as efficient;
    • the list is written for SC, but applies to HC as well, with some tweaks to gear / skills / attributes
    • until you have Enigma, Sorcs are by far the most efficient mf and rune find characters due to teleport; with Enigma the above list applies, but Barbs come out on top most of the time
    • doing areas like AT, cows and the Pits for mf is best done on /p1, as the bosses / champions drop the same on /p1 as on /p8; normal monsters drop better the higher the player setting, but they aren't worth it to kill, except maybe if it's a big pack
    • doing those areas for runes, it's best to tune up the player setting as high as possible (as long as it doesn't mean you lose too much killing speed)
    • for act bosses and superuniques, I generally rely on this mf guide; so Pindle on /p1, Meph on /p3; I don't often run others, but I've read to kill Baal on/p3, Diablo probably the same; this applies to mf, again to find runes it's best to tune up as high as possible, as long as you still kill fast
    • mf (almost) doesn't matter for chest drops
    • the best areas to farm for runes are LK and Travincal, and to a lesser extent cows
    • the best way to get skillers is to get Grand Charms with an ilvl that is high enough to roll +1 skills, but not too high so that the max number of different possibilities gets limited (preferably from NM Flayer Jungle and up, but not beyond Act 3) and to reroll those
    • this is the map I currently have in AT for my Blizzard Sorc, with the route I always follow in red, from the entrance at the top left to the point where my merc and me are in the picture (don't dare to laugh at my mad drawing skill :oops:); as you can see, I always skip the part to the right, because I tend to encounter 5 - 6 boss/champs on my route anyway, and the part to the right usually doesn't have boss/champs; would this be the most efficient, or would it be better to do the right part anyway, for those times when a boss / champ does spawn there?
    • from this thread, I gather that it might be worth it to pop crates, corpses, jugs, logs, boulders, stashes, cocoons, goo piles, dead guards, caskets, beds and sarcophaguses, but not Urns, rock piles, baskets, jars, barrels, if you're not losing too much time doing so; or is this only for dedicated runs on poppables, and shouldn't I bother when running for example AT?

    That's all I can think of for now, although I thought there was much more. I will add questions / statements if I think about them. Again, to be clear, these are all things I think are true, but they might as well be completely wrong. So feel free to correct me, answer me, whatever, and as such increase my efficiency :). I apologize for this post being so chaotic, but I hope it will still be a good start to increase my efficiency, and also general knowledge of the game.

    Thanks in beforehand :).
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  2. RadTang

    RadTang IncGamers Member

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    I have exactly the same approach to the game as You used to have. As far as I remember, had even a 1-2 uniques popped out of the poppables. That was funny. Always at /p1 though. Necro is hard to get him started. Maybe I will try higher setting with a different class. Nice sorceress. About 3x life than mine deleted one. :D Sadly, I can't add anything more on topic You're researching.
     
  3. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    The key at increasing efficiency is determination accompanied with playing. Most of the time while trying to play efficiently, you have to leave some things behind. Most notable thing you leave while MF-ing is to kill whole area (or full clears if you will). Player must resist the urge to kill those 10 monsters in the corner and go for next bosspack straight, then pretty much ignore all non-boss creeps around him once he dies. Player must be determined to develop such playing style, otherwise he won't succeed.

    There are also more boring things to do if you seek efficiency, that is to roll good maps. Obviously without good map you won't achieve your upper efficiency level. Question is how much time are you ready to invest into it and are you satisfied with "good enough" or you want "greatness".

    Experimental nature helps when achieving efficient playing. What is most efficient way for one player might not be for another player due to difference in playing style or preferences. You must test things yourself to determine what is more efficient way to play the game FOR YOU. It could take some time, so again question is what are you after, "good enough" or you want the best you can get for yourself.

    So, first question to ask yourself, when trying to play efficiently is what do you have to leave behind (or what do you lose by it). I'll name some examples.

    One example is given with killing bosspacks to find magic items. You leave behind the urge to kill those creeps around and doing full clears. Also p1 is what you mostly want unless your killing power on p7 is great. As for your AT map, I don't know how it is, but usually if you have rather rare bosspack spawn in some area that takes X seconds to check, you must ask yourself is it worth it from efficiency part, or is faster to have X seconds faster runs and kill bosses there. It depends on the map and playing speed so that is up to you to test/decide. I usually leave those areas behind.

    When hunting for runes, p7 is what you want instead and then creeps are very important. If you want to combine MF and runefinding, you have to find best compromise. Usually killing large portions of creeps even without boss is worth it.

    When hunting for xp, it can be very situational. For example, unless you are slower paced player, when hunting xp at Baal waves, it is simply not worth to kill Baal until level 96. What you lose are ilvl99 charms and essences (what Baal is pretty much about) and higher chance at scoring epic drops. Simply sticking to waves alone will net you bigger xp gain, but question is do you need something else Baal gives (essences, charms) to be the worth target to actually kill despite him slowing your xp gain down.

    Same thing is with CS and Diablo where difference is even bigger. Sticking to seals is xp gaining machine method, while waiting for Diablo to spawn is slow process and you lose xp gain per time invested by it. But, he gives essences... Also obviously depends on the character level. But I think until level 97 you have no reason to consider Diablo as xp target at all, only to farm essences and high level charms.


    One last thing. Efficiency part of playing is still developing and still we constantly discover and test the limits of playing efficiency for characters. Diablo exists for how long, yet only in like last year of playing some things were discovered/proved. Not so long ago it was thought that WW barb is like a god in Travincal, yet last two RFO's it were blizzard sorcs who dominated the scene. Extended testing (at least mathematical part) shows us difference between them is very small and are comparable. Pit singer was proven to be amazing MF character (currently second to pit zerker), and not some slacking nub from lalala land that only has hp which makes him viable for HC. Goldfind barb was considered by far best goldfind character you can have, yet it wasn't long ago that it was shown goldfind sorc could actually be superior in that part, despite not holding goldfind record atm. Poppables are still researched, right before our eyes. Oh yes, Hammerdin was considered best CS character, right? Well, it was shown that blizzard sorc could actually be better for the area and is possibly fastest leveling character in diablo world up until level 97. And right now it is questionable is javazon really best character for killing cows, or is necro her equal or even better.

    Determination, rolling maps, testing, playing to improve gameplay... yes, mostly what efficiency is about. And obviously luck, but we can't affect that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
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  4. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Gripphon, thanks for the very thorough reply. Following your post, some more questions / observations:

    • a good map: good you mention that, because that's indeed key in SP; currenly I like my AT map so much, because I can skip the outer right area (and it seems you agree with me that that would be the most efficient thing to do). With my SC sorc I had the entrance to AT very close to the WP, but I just couldn't run it efficiently due to the map layout. Now the distance WP - entrance is only moderate, but I just love the map itself. Anyway, I agree: a good map is crucial, and I usually take the time to reroll until I have it
    • about good maps: in general, for example for Meph and Countess, it's quite clear what a good map is. However for Travincal, what is called a good map? One where all the Council members are either outside or inside the building? Also, I see you mention Blizz sorc as very good Travincal runner. In SC I have been doing Travincal with a Blizz sorc and WW Barb at some point, but died on a regular base (which obviously isn't an option now in HC). Are there any specific ways to increase survivability there? Fire absorb probably, or something else too? Also, should I run those on /p7 as well? Sounds difficult, but maybe it isn't ...
    • what I sometimes do wrong, is to multitask with certain characters, instead of focusing on what they excel at. I have, for example, been doing Countess runs (to a lesser extent) with my HC Blizz Sorc, just for a change of pace, while she has a terrible map for it (but I didn't want to reroll at the time because of my perfect Meph map) and in general just isn't good at it (low fcr at the time, main target immune to my damage type, .... ; just leveling up for example a lightning sorc wouldn't take much longer, and would be far more efficient in the long run
    • in the same vein, I have a tendency to try and mix things up. For example, trying to run areas both for runes and for items. It's probably often a better way to clearly go for one or the other (unless squeezing in mf doesn't affect killing speed at all)?
    • another thing I didn't mention, but which is important, is fun. After all it's still a game, it's supposed to be fun. You mention determination, and with good reason, but despite the fact that after x amount of runs everything can start to feel like a grind somewhat, it has to be at least still a bit of fun. For me personally that rules out LK runs for example. I realize that place might be the best way to get HRs, but I just can't see myself enjoying that even for 5 minutes. So I think I wouldn't stand to do it for more like let's say 15 minutes at most.
    • you mention not killing creeps for mf runs. I'm not sure what the word 'creeps' means though: everything but the actual boss / champion, or everything but the boss and his minions. So, to get it straight: for mf, do I kill the boss / champ only, or the minions as well?
    • in the same vein, to make sure I understand it right: for rune hunting, and rune hunting only, should I kill everything in areas like AT (well probably not single enemies), so normal enemies as well? I think up till now I think I have been doing what you describe as the compromise
    • as to Baal and Diablo: why does it become worth it to start killing them at high levels, when going for xp? And just to be clear: for xp it's seals and seals only, nothing in the CS for the rest? I assume for general mf or rune finding purposes, the same applies as stated earlier in general for areas like AT and the Pits?
    • last but not least: you mention finding out what works for ME. That's a very good point, as I have noticed that it's often hard to have certain aspects / builds / ... that work for eveyone. For example, I have seen quite a few videos of Berserker Barbs doing Pit runs for mf, and while it looks really efficient to me, I just know it's a build that I won't be able to do properly. In the same vein, I already notice a big difference in efficiency between my first Blizz Sorc, in SC, and now this one in HC. So that's certainly a good sign :)

    Thanks again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  5. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Travincal sorc map:
    that is the hard part about sorc, she depends very much about map. Perfect map is to have minions alltogether outside on balcony and you tele to the right of them preventing them from getting out and spreading around. Having minions alltogether inside is not what sorc wants, they spread around too easily. So yes, it takes time to roll good map for her.
    Regarding survivability, beside having good map you can snipe them down from safe distance, you would also want maxed resistances if possible, or at least having decent lite resist. Hydras can be negated by fire absorb gloves to not waste amulet slot or ring slots. Though in HC that sorc is much harder to play cause she does die more easily than a barb. For a HC I'd go more safety route with good resistances and life. And don't tele into them by mistake...
    CoH and Vipermagi are both good choices for resistances, Vipermagi even more since it gives decent mdr and fcr too, but lacks 1 skill. Also it is pretty much needed to have merc with Infinity to negate immunity of one/two bosses there. Overall, not an easy character to build or play in HC. Stick to barbs there imo.

    p3 Travincal is where its at. Don't know is there any char who is more efficient by running p7 than p3, given the difference in time to kill them. Perhaps sub-optimal Enigmaless paladins who do have longer runtimes can go p7, but otherwise p3 is what you want.

    Whether going for items or runes or both is up to you, can't help you on that choice.

    Creeps = anything not boss or champion. Even minions are creeps, their drop chances are much worse than boss itself, except for the runes and such on p7. For rune hunting you do want to kill dense creep areas on p7. On p7, runewise, killing 1 boss is similar to killing 2.5 random creeps, so... yeah, they are quite strong for runefinding, but at the same time they are like ~30x worse than boss itself regarding dropping uniques...

    Regarding Baal and Diablo, there are two things to consider. One is their level, other is how much xp do they actually give per kill. Baal is more likely to be subject to xp level penalty due to your character being more than 5 levels lower than Baal himself (level 99), so then additional penalty kicks in. That penalty is gone once you hit level 94, and then Baal xp gain per time invested actually starts to rise in comparison to his waves. Diablo you have to wait to kill, you have to open all seals (instead of focusing on only 2 seals left and right for most power leveling completely ignoring north seal and his boss). Bosspacks (bosses AND minions) are what you are after for experience, even championpacks are not worth to kill for it until you are level 92 and lower. In CS you can focus mostly on left and right seal bosspacks + killing some bosspacks along the way. On level 94 you start to get additional penalty on experience from bosspacks which additionally increases for each level up, so then Diablo actually gains more "power" leveling-wise since for him you won't have a penalty at all. But until level 97 penalty for bosspacks is not strong enough for Diablo to be worth the time. Well, I guess it can be 96 too depending on your killing speed. For Baal, level 95 or 96 is where he becomes efficient to hit for xp.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  6. Timinator

    Timinator IncGamers Member

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    Be careful not to burn out. I've seen great runners do one too many mf runs at an mfo then declare they burnt out and will never do a run again. Most of these statements are true over time. Your comment about fun is right. In the past I've tried things to be more efficient it structured. Then some things seem like work and I take a break for 2 years..
     
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  7. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Thanks guys.

    Timinator, I agree with you. Like I said, having fun is an important aspect. After all it's a game. If I feel like doing such repetitive runs is getting boring, I have plenty of other things I want to do in D2. That's probably why I have some 25 characters and 2 Septs in SC, and now started in HC.

    Some more questions / questions still unanswered:

    • why only the left and right seal in CS runs, not the north one (Lord De Seis)?
    • am I right to assume that I shouldn't even bother running any other character than a Sorc until I have Enigma, at least when it comes to S/U and runes and when we are talking about efficiency?
    • what is the best way to get skillers? Is it to get Grand Charms with an ilvl that is high enough to roll +1 skills, but not too high so that the max number of different possibilities gets limited (preferably from NM Flayer Jungle and up, but not beyond Act 3) and to reroll those? Or do you just reroll any grand charm that has an ilvl that is high enough?
    • does mf matter when opening chests?
    • what about poppables outside of LK? Pop them, or leave them?
    • if you'd have to rank different areas as best rune finding places, what would it be? LK, Travincal, Cows, AT/Pits/CS, ... in that order?

    Thanks :).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  8. Fabian

    Fabian IncGamers Member

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    1. Lord De Seis is pretty annoying and dangerous, and the time it takes to kill him safely isn't worth it compared to starting another run.

    2. Efficiency wise, almost everything in almost every circumstance will be less efficient than a sorc if you don't have Enigma. The possible exceptions probably aren't worth thinking about too much.

    3. If you're looking for plain skillers and don't care about sacrificing the possibility of high-end items, NM Flayer Jungle (or why not NM LK runs) seem optimal. The "best" way to get skillers is by doing Hell LK runs and using the gems to reroll Baal GC charms. Travincal is second best.

    4. No.

    5. Leave them if you ask me. I pop stuff sometimes. meh.

    6. Depends hugely on what you're looking for exactly and how well geared your various characters are. Roughly speaking, LK Sorc > Trav Sorc = Trav Barb > p7 Cow Necro = p7 Cow Zon > p7 Pit Poison Necro = p7 CS (Necro/Hammer/Blizzard/etc) > AT sorc, assuming reasonably optimal/normal gear and such. Also the exact order probably is wrong anyway, so take it with a grain of salt. No one has attempted to quantify these things accurately enough to say for sure, especially when it comes to the random a85 areas.
     
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  9. Pb_pal

    Pb_pal IncGamers Member

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    Fabian nailed everything, with one minor discrepancy regarding MF working on chests.

    MF does NOT apply to any Superchests. These include Special Chests (like LK/RoF) and Sparkly Chests (such as Pit lvl 2, AT).

    MF DOES apply to regular chests, barrels, corpses etc etc.

    This isn't a huge deal, as they aren't a great source for farming S/U or anything, but worthy of keeping in consideration I guess.
     
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  10. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    Thanks people !!! Can't get much clearer than this :).

    I have no more questions for now ... how is that possible?
     
  11. Timinator

    Timinator IncGamers Member

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    You have past this point already, but when 1.10 first landed, I had a concentrate barb who did Hell Meph runs by having the level 2 WP around the corner to level 3, then jumping the moat. Very good for picking up TC 75 and below. This was back in 2003 before the new fancy runewords though. Call me old fashioned, but I enjoy Meph, he is quick to get to compared to Diablo/Baal, and having 5/6 regular drops, and regularly gold/green is a nice touch.

    I've also enjoyed running Andariel in the the past for Jewellry etc. I did a fire sorc for that.

    Also, some people (old fashioned) swear by the hell countess for Ist and below. I get bored all those different levels to get to her!
     
  12. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    I agree. I absolutely love Meph. He has been my main target for a long time before moving on to AT and to a lesser extent Pindle, on a map like the one you describe in your post. The only thing he refused to give me this time is a Shako :(. But I don't think I'll go back to him just because of that one. It'll drop eventually ...

    I never did Andariel much. Maybe I should do her more, although iirc the Council is also good for jewelry, so some neat stuff could drop if I finally get around to make an efficient Travincal runner.

    Hell Countess ... I've ran her many times in SC, with mixed results. Haven't really bothered to do so in HC though.
     
  13. Timinator

    Timinator IncGamers Member

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    FYI I just have one "mephable" left, The Redeemer. Although at this point I won't run him for just one item. It should drop while waiting for the other stuff. I have a pally who is waiting on that stick. I think its good for smite pallys?
     
  14. RadTang

    RadTang IncGamers Member

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    <offtopic> My necro's normal map (I'm still at normal) is so cool. The distance between level 2 WP and lvl 3 stairs is not very big, also nothing seriously hard to kill (stygian dolls aren't a problem for me). Though I've switched CG for IG for now (never used IG up to now) because of the wand I have posted and my back-up head adds +3 to golem mastery only. I saw the decrep + CG slow and it was noticeable for me vs Meph. IG has at default (the stats of the skill) 2x more HP than me. Plus, he looks cool ! Kinda fallout-ish :p </offtopic>
     
  15. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss IncGamers Member

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    The only habit I have (and it's a good one I think, one that I learned from when I was at the Basin many many years ago) was to do full clears. Even though I was mping with people, it was fun to walk with others and play the game for PvE and not for some other type of purpose.

    I don't really do poppables, I just kill monsters, and I usually actually only open chests. Barrels and most other poppables are just annoying for me. The chests are usually bigger in terms of game image, and more appealing.
     
  16. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    For a Smiter, use Grief. The +damage on Redeemer is much smaller, the weapon is slower and it's not indestructible.
     
  17. Timinator

    Timinator IncGamers Member

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    Grief may be BiS, however so far I only have one, and that is allocated to a future pit zerker barb. I'll keep in mind for future LO runes, but Grief is now BiS for most builds right?
     
  18. T72on1

    T72on1 IncGamers Member

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    @Timinator Yes, I think it is for a lot of builds.

    I have another question. What do you guys pick up, what do you leave behind? Next to interesting S/Us (either grailer or just good items), I also pick up runes Dol+, sometimes even lower than that (bad habit from the past I can't get rid of), all charms (although I occasionally leave Large Charms), flawless gems, jewels, rare circlets, amulets, rings, gloves, belts, boots, most class-specific items and some weapon types, magic circlets and amulets, most white and socketed class-specific items and white and socketed bases for runewords. In my opinion, all of these can be interesting. Only, it takes a lot of time to pick them up and check if they are actually good or not. Also, I tend to keep way too many items, especially rares, 'because you never know they might be useful for something'.

    O yes, and maybe yet another question: crafting ... which recipes do you use? With a few exceptions, I have never really bothered with crafting. Mainly because I find it cumbersome to remember the right type of magic items (for example Magic Chain Gloves/Heavy Bracers/Vambraces for hit power gloves) and then actually pick them up when they do drop. But this post sparked my interest in gambling again, so I now started doing amulets for a bit. Only to find out that you need a whole lot of low level runes, gems and perfect jewels for it ...

    Thanks again :).
     
  19. RadTang

    RadTang IncGamers Member

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    I pick all runes, gems, charms. I never pick assassin weapons without staffmods (too low price). As I'm using Iron Golem now, I always aim to have 1-2 armors in stash (rare or just magical) to make golem out of them. Never crafted anything.

    I have a lot of **** in my extended stash (ATMA) like goldfind charms or +1 dmg rings :D
     
  20. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    Regarding crafting to give you feeling what can you possibly expect:

    500 caster amulets and blood rings

    4100 crafts of various type

    This pretty much sums up what I craft. Blood amulets are terrible imo and did them just for a test drive. Never again, agreed. Also blood boots are worth to check. Life, lifesteal /mods etc. Not exactly hard to craft good ones. And also blood gloves if someone find those useful for pvm. I usually value Chance Guards/hitpower gloves/LoH/fcr gloves higher.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
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