Important Pure WWSin Claw Question

[TraderJoes]

Important Pure WWSin Claw Question

Hi, the assassin im making is a pure wwsin assassin, based on venom and claw dmg.

i've been doing some thinking and reading up on guides and most of them suggest that the chaos/fury should be in a +3venom runic/feral/greater talons. But i think otherwise. I think a +3venom suwayyah would be better.

My reasoning is that since in a runic/feral/greater talon you already have max ww speed, then what use is the +35ias from chaos or 40 from fury when you're not laying down traps? In a suwayyah, the claw does, on average, more damage even though it has a base wep speed of 0. The wep speed really doesnt matter, because as i have read, all you need in a base speed wep of 0 is 14 more ias to reach the fastest ww breakpoint.

Oh and one more point, a runic/feral requires 113-115 str/dex while a suwayyah only requires 99.

Clear anything im missing up please =) and leave some suggestions. THanks!

 

[wizAdept]

So when you say "pure" wwsin you mean you aren't going to use traps just whirl? Thats going to limit the success of your assassin by far.
The reason guides mention fast claws is because 9fpa trap speed is essential for any pvp assassin. If it doesn't have trap speed and its in pvp its going to suck. Stun is how assassins win at pvp.

On a side note you can reach -45 wsm by wsm bugging a runic/suwayyah equip. Suwayyah being the chaos since you want the fools claw or fury primary and hence the runic.

 

[mephiztophelez]

If it doesn't have trap speed and its in pvp its going to suck. Stun is how assassins win at pvp.

word.

On a side note you can reach -45 wsm by wsm bugging a runic/suwayyah equip. Suwayyah being the chaos since you want the fools claw or fury primary and hence the runic.

this is a pita tho. every time you weapon switch, you need to re-equip your claws to re-bug 'em.

 

[TraderJoes]

i mean, i have mindblast to work my stunlocking, and if i do correct stun/quick switch to tele/triwhirl then im sure pure wwsins arent going to suck that bad is it...

and again my question is, IF i were to do pure wwsin, which claw would be best, it would be suwayyah right? or am i missing something here.

 

[mephiztophelez]

and again my question is, IF i were to do pure wwsin, which claw would be best, it would be suwayyah right? or am i missing something here.

dropping traps to aid stunlock is a staple of successful ww-sinning. mindblast gieb swirlies which means that any damage taken will result in your opponent going into hit recovery. it would be very hard to win consistently without good stunlocking technique.

2 x WoF + 3 x LS + MB swirlies = lockdown.

you need to get those traps down quickly is what we're saying.

 

[TraderJoes]

okay, i sort of get what you guys are saying now. I have a few questions for you guys still:

1) Will wake of fire/mb/tele/ww be good enough for a combo?
2) If using traps, then what is the highest dmg claw that can also reach a decent trap laying speed. I have heard, runic or feral? Not sure which to pick. (right now i have a +3venom feral chaos) <---is there a need to switch this
3) With a fury, what claw should i assign to it? Runics?
4) how does offhand claw and other hand claw affect trap laying speeds?

Thanks and much appreciated =)

 

[TienJe]

okay, i sort of get what you guys are saying now. I have a few questions for you guys still:

1) Will wake of fire/mb/tele/ww be good enough for a combo?
2) If using traps, then what is the highest dmg claw that can also reach a decent trap laying speed. I have heard, runic or feral? Not sure which to pick. (right now i have a +3venom feral chaos) <---is there a need to switch this
3) With a fury, what claw should i assign to it? Runics?
4) how does offhand claw and other hand claw affect trap laying speeds?

Thanks and much appreciated =)

1) yes. thats the bread and butter of most ghost play.
2) if you pair a feral with a runic, you'll have -25 average WSM, meaning you need 52% IAS (not counting your secondary claw) for the 9 frame BP. if you slap on a highlords or a 15 IAS jewel in your helm and put your fury as primary, you'll be trapping at 9 frames.
3) put the lower damage of the 2 claws you're using as the fury, as it has less ED% on the runeword.
4) offhand WSM gets averaged with the primary WSM to find the average WSM of both your claws, which is then used to calculate how much IAS% you need. The only IAS counted is your primary claw + rest of your non weapon eqiup (everything but your offhand claw's IAS is counted).

-30 AWSM = 42% IAS
-25 AWSM = 52% IAS
-20 AWSM = 63% IAS

anything slower than -20 AWSM isn't really efficient, so try and stay above that. even -20 AWSM is already pushing it.

 

[TraderJoes]

1) yes. thats the bread and butter of most ghost play.
2) if you pair a feral with a runic, you'll have -25 average WSM, meaning you need 52% IAS (not counting your secondary claw) for the 9 frame BP. if you slap on a highlords or a 15 IAS jewel in your helm and put your fury as primary, you'll be trapping at 9 frames.
3) put the lower damage of the 2 claws you're using as the fury, as it has less ED% on the runeword.
4) offhand WSM gets averaged with the primary WSM to find the average WSM of both your claws, which is then used to calculate how much IAS% you need. The only IAS counted is your primary claw + rest of your non weapon eqiup (everything but your offhand claw's IAS is counted).

-30 AWSM = 42% IAS
-25 AWSM = 52% IAS
-20 AWSM = 63% IAS

anything slower than -20 AWSM isn't really efficient, so try and stay above that. even -20 AWSM is already pushing it.

Alrite, thanks. I pretty much get the main idea now. So now i've settled for a Feral chaos on the offhand, and a Runic Fury for my onhand claw.

Just to make sure, the 9frame bp is ideal for trap laying right? Like it's not efficient to get faster speeds for trap-laying?

...and for my -25awsm i need 52ias, 40 from my fury and, 15 more from a jewel in my helm. What i'm wondering is which jewel is better? (a 15ias/15max or a 15ias/15res jewel or a jewel i havent yet thought of)

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the help!

 

[TraderJoes]

1) yes. thats the bread and butter of most ghost play.
2) if you pair a feral with a runic, you'll have -25 average WSM, meaning you need 52% IAS (not counting your secondary claw) for the 9 frame BP. if you slap on a highlords or a 15 IAS jewel in your helm and put your fury as primary, you'll be trapping at 9 frames.
3) put the lower damage of the 2 claws you're using as the fury, as it has less ED% on the runeword.
4) offhand WSM gets averaged with the primary WSM to find the average WSM of both your claws, which is then used to calculate how much IAS% you need. The only IAS counted is your primary claw + rest of your non weapon eqiup (everything but your offhand claw's IAS is counted).

-30 AWSM = 42% IAS
-25 AWSM = 52% IAS
-20 AWSM = 63% IAS

anything slower than -20 AWSM isn't really efficient, so try and stay above that. even -20 AWSM is already pushing it.

Alrite, thanks. I pretty much get the main idea now. So now i've settled for a Feral chaos on the offhand, and a Runic Fury for my onhand claw.

Just to make sure, the 9frame bp is ideal for trap laying right? Like it's not efficient to get faster speeds for trap-laying?

...and for my -25awsm i need 52ias, 40 from my fury and, 15 more from a jewel in my helm. What i'm wondering is which jewel is better? (a 15ias/15max or a 15ias/15res jewel or a jewel i havent yet thought of)

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the help!

 

[mephiztophelez]

15res/15ias jool. pure physical damage isn't a big part of a ww-sins make-up (except for the previously alluded too, very rare phys damage model, but they NEED some kind of 300ed/fools/eth-repair elite claw to work)

be warned if your speedbugging, you'll have to keep re-equipping your claws. i'd go for having both claws as runics (or greater talons) if possible

 

[wizAdept]

Alrite, thanks. I pretty much get the main idea now. So now i've settled for a Feral chaos on the offhand, and a Runic Fury for my onhand claw.

Seeing that feral/runic is -25 wsm and runic/feral is -25 wsm, why would you not want the fury in the higher average damage base claw?

Just to make sure, the 9frame bp is ideal for trap laying right? Like it's not efficient to get faster speeds for trap-laying?

9 frame trap laying is the fastest trap laying speed. However keep in mind that with 55 ias total, you'll lose that 52% ias bp if someone with arach hits you. This can be a problem in wwsin duels or other stuff that can slow. runic/runic will hit it's 42ias bp with that 55ias even if you are slowed. For other duels where slow doesn't matter, of course feral is nicer with its higher average damage.

 

[TienJe]

Seeing that feral/runic is -25 wsm and runic/feral is -25 wsm, why would you not want the fury in the higher average damage base claw?

because chaos has higher ed%, so it makes sense that the chaos is in the higher average damage claw.

 

[TraderJoes]

aite, thx a bunch you guys, i learned a lot from this thread about the ww assassin.

One question tho, some of you mentioned speedbugging or whatnot. What is that specifically? and is it necessary for the ww/ghostsin to work properly?

 

[wizAdept]

because chaos has higher ed%, so it makes sense that the chaos is in the higher average damage claw.

oh right. for some reason I thought the ds on fury would make the adjusted average damage higher. After running the numbers through a damage calculator I find myself wrong. <.<

I haven't looked at this in a while just cause of how much tweaked out rare claws outshine fury in hero edited char builds. Guess I got too used to seeing chaos in the runic when a runic/feral combo is used with a rare claw.

 

[wizAdept]

aite, thx a bunch you guys, i learned a lot from this thread about the ww assassin.

One question tho, some of you mentioned speedbugging or whatnot. What is that specifically? and is it necessary for the ww/ghostsin to work properly?

Taken from jrichard's ias tables thread on page 3:

This bug occurs with figuring your WSM for a dual wield setup. If the inventory-claw is equipped first, your WSM for figuring your EIAS will be the average of the WSMs of the two weapons. For example, when using a claw with a WSM of -30 and equipping it first in the inventory-left position and using a 10 WSM claw and equipping it second in the inventory-right position, the WSM you would use for figuring you EIAS would be -10 (the average of -30 and 10). If you take those same two claws and equip the -30 WSM claw first and in the inventory-right position with the 10 WSM claw second and in the inventory-left position, the WSM for figuring your EIAS would be -50, much faster! Why? Well, when equipping the inventory-right claw first, the WSMs are not just averaged, instead they are averaged and then the difference between the two is added to that average. The equation looks like this:

(inventory_right_WSM + inventory_left_WSM)/2 + (inventory_right_WSM – inventory_left_WSM)

Getting messy, isn't it? Here's the numbers ran through that equation:

(-30 + 10)/2 +(-30 – 10)
(-20)/2 + (-40)
(-10) + (-40)
-50

Just for kicks, let's run the numbers once again, but this time we'll equip the 10 WSM claw first and in the inventory-right position and the -30 WSM claw second and in the inventory_left position.

(inventory_right_WSM + inventory_left_WSM)/2 + (inventory_right_WSM – inventory_left_WSM)
(10+ (-30)) / 2 + (10 - (-30))
(-20) / 2 + (40)
(-10) + 40
30

Wow, much slower than the average. So, we can state a couple of things about equipping the inventory- right claw first:

1.If you equip a lower WSM claw first, you will end up with lower WSM than the average.
2.If you equip a higher WSM claw first, you will end up with a higher WSM than the average.
3.The greater the difference between the WSMs of the two claws, the larger the effect of this bug.
4.If you weapon switch, you will have to open the inventory screen up and reset your claws in order to retain the benefits of using this bug.

It is completely up to you if you want to take advantage of this bug, personally I think it's too much of a hassle to deal with for the results.

So with suwayyah/runic wsm bugged, you reach -45 wsm, faster than 2x runic, and more damaging.

So you can use these combos:
warfist/runic = -50wsm
warfist/feral = -45 wsm
warfist/wristsword = -35 wsm
suwayyah/runic = -45 wsm
suwayyah/feral = -30 wsm
(you can use scissor suwayyah in place of suwayyah for any of these since they are both 0 wsm base speed)

note that warfist spawns 2 soc at most so it can not be a chaos, note the slower claw has to be offhand for wsm bugging to work, hence you can not use a fools warfist for this.

Suwayyah/runic is the prefered combo because:
-it frees up any requirement of offweapon ias on gear
-chaos can be made in the offhand claw for this combo so the primary can be a fools rare claw
-east has eth glitch suwayyahs, west (from what I heard, someone confirm) has eth glitched scissor suwayyahs, so in a physical damage wwsin build, where base weapon damage matters more than a ow/venom damage over time build, this combo helps get the most damage out of the claws you can obtain on the realms (given you have no qualms about using eth glitched claws which are obviously duped)

However about wsm bugging:

this is a pita tho. every time you weapon switch, you need to re-equip your claws to re-bug 'em.

this is true.

It's annoying to do, and in a fast paced duel can mean you can't re-bo yourself unless you can space yourself from your opponent long enough to rebug yourself. It also means you can't use wsg to get out of stun if you build around wsm bug claw equipping. However I still use the wsm bug on my wwsin, more damage, less ias problems, frees helm socket for ed% jewel, removes 1.10 highlord requirement and allows 08 highlords to be used with max trap speed, ect ect.

For a damage over time build (focusing on venom/ow%) it's probably not worth the trouble to wsm bug, build around standard claw equipping. For physical damage builds it makes a difference.

 

[Nazdakka]

note that warfist spawns 2 soc at most so it can not be a chaos, note the slower claw has to be offhand for wsm bugging to work, hence you can not use a fools warfist for this.

Eh? I thought I had the WSM bug down pat.

Tell me where I'm going wrong here:

Using Fool's War Fist(+10)/Runic Chaos(-30). Fool's is inventory-left, Chaos is inventory-right.

(inventory_right_WSM + inventory_left_WSM)/2 + (inventory_right_WSM – inventory_left_WSM)

= (-30 + 10) /2 + (-30 -10)
= -50

Left-hand claw, the Fool's War Fist, is always primary, yes? Is that where I'm going wrong? IIRC the AR from a Fool's mod on an offhand claw is ignored, so if when using the bug the inventory-left claw is treated as being the secondary, I can see how this makes sense.

So if the inventory-left claw is treated as secondary when WSM bugging, to use the bug with an offhand Chaos I'd need to make Chaos in a Suwayyah and use a fast Fool's, then equip the Fool's inventory-right and the Chaos inventory left.

PS: How does the thing where you don't get the AR from an offhand fool's work? Is there anything else that doesn't work with an offhand fool's?

 

[wizAdept]

Gloveside claw is by default primary, when you wsm bug your equip, you lift and equip the gloveside claw, then the bootside claw becomes primary since it is the first equipped claw, which overrides the default until you swap to cta or something else that resets it.

So by using warfist/runic, the warfist has to be gloveside, and thus the offhand claw when you wsm bug.

PS: How does the thing where you don't get the AR from an offhand fool's work? Is there anything else that doesn't work with an offhand fool's?

Fools just interacts in an odd way with ww, only one ar value is used for both claws attacks with ww, the displayed ar on your character screen is false.
Primary hand fools = both claws get ar bonus, however the ar is not as high as the character screen states
Offhand fools = neither claw gets any ar bonus

You can read about the testing I did on this here:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=532804

reupload of the test I did since old link died:
http://media.putfile.com/fools-claw-ar-on-ww

If anyone sees any loopholes in my testing please point them out, but Im fairly sure this is how fools works with ww.

So yeah.. warfist = offhand = fools is pointless.

 

[Nazdakka]

That seems authoritative. Thanks for that information, this means a pretty fundamental switch in the gear for my current project, and I'd have had to do a complete rebuild if I'd found that out much later.

 

[TraderJoes]

ah okay, the wsm speedbugging thing i get now, but seems too inefficient for me if im building a heavy poison-based dueler that needs to be running around and stunlocking people the whole time.

In the midst of all this "higher talk," i'd just like to ask if 60% claw block is the highest it can go and is there a need to put any more points in that category once 60% is reached? thanks!

 

[TienJe]

wsm bugging takes literally 1-2 seconds. you just lift and then replace your glove-side claw, like a double click. i think its worth it for every sin thats concious about trap laying speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4P911TzuE

i wsm bug in the beginning of the duel right there, and even with fraps going and poor latency, it takes me about 1.5 seconds. i know that at least personally, its definitely worth the trouble.