IMO why in the right context buying from Ebay isn't necessarily bad.

raffster

Diabloii.Net Member
IMO why in the right context buying from Ebay isn't necessarily bad.

One of the most controversial and touchy subjects on Diablo 2 Battle.Net is about buying virtual items from Ebay. In fact this is the subject matter that attracted me the most before I decided joining this RPG forum. Why? Because I have done my own share of buying and selling on Ebay on a per-need basis but before you flame me please read the rest of this post. I have just finished reading another thread that was started today regarding “Newbies†and somewhere in the thread someone mentioned that Ebay is legit. It didn’t take long before the poster got flamed by other forum members.

This post is not to defend that person who said that Ebay is legit. This post is about why I personally think that not all buying and selling from Ebay is bad.

I started a thread last week about “If Buying on Ebay is the reason why there are dupers†and the impression I got is that dupers and cheaters will exist even with or without Ebay. So it seems like (from the perspective of those who responded to that thread) there will be cheaters anyway even if Ebay did not exist. So even from that thread we know that Ebay isn’t the chief cause of cheating in the closed realms.

This is what I personally think about what constitutes cheating, and why under the right circumstances there is nothing wrong with buying virtual items from Ebay.

Cheating constitutes:
1. Anything that tampers with the code: E.g. maphack, pick-it, trade-hack, etc. etc. Anything that gets you ahead of the other players because you are using an “alien†tool to your advantage. (Some of you may contest that Ebay is an alien tool. However, when you buy from Ebay you do not tamper with game code.)
2. Using bugged items. This is another form of tampering with game code, hence it is cheating. (Using duped items? This would be on a separate thread altogether. Why? Who can honestly tell a duped non-bugged item from a non-duped non-bugged item until it vanishes?)
3. Scamming anybody using whatever method for whatever reason. This includes no payback when you promised your forge for a rush.
4. PKing low levels to steal their gold. You need to kill other people to get gold? Shame on you.
5. Stealing somebody’s account via cracking their password. This is the worst of them all.

Ebay (bad)
1. When you steal somebody’s credit card information (like your sister’s VISA) so you can buy stuff from Ebay.
2. When you are a Ebay scammer out to steal people’s money and items.
3. When you use Ebay to further enhance whatever cheating methods you already have.
4. When you use Ebay to sell items found via Pindlebots or acquired through Pick-It.
5. When you use Ebay to take advantage of buying low and selling high on the trade channel. E.g. Buy a duped Zod for five bucks, trade the Zod in the channel for Tal Set + IK Set + Trang Set and then sell the stuff for $15 and buy yourself 3 more Zods to do the same exact thing.

Ebay (good)
1. When you work for your money and you have some extra cash to spend on Diablo items. This is from the premise that for some people time>money hence they would rather spend some money for items that will add fun to their game play and not spend countless hours to MF or trade for an item they may never find or get.
2. When you sell legit items to make a few extra bucks from items you found by you doing MF runs you did (not pindle bot) and buy yourself an item you need or use the money IRL.
3. When you sell items for your poor friends who have no Ebay account and use the money you make to buy them items they will take a very long time to get. (this I have done several times and I have made many of my poor friends happy when they finally got the item that completed a character they are building. E.g. I sold my friend’s mule account of exceptional items for $10 and bought him a low % HOTO. His hammerdin is now complete and he is very happy. Note that none of the items in the mule account, even all of the items combined could get him a HOTO).

This is a subject I was hoping to veer away from but I need to hear your thoughts on why some of you think all Diablo 2 players who buy and/or sell from Ebay are outright cheaters.

Flame me if you must but be detailed and verbose in your explanation. Don’t be silly and just say: “OMFG, you are a cheater because you buy from Ebay and you encourage others to cheat. F****N nOOb†This is not the kind of response I want to read. And if you agree with me you could add what you think I may have left out or forgotten.
 

Gorny

Banned
Buying from Ebay is not bad in itself. However, buying items off of Ebay for D2x violates the EULA, and IS cheating.

That is what makes it wrong , it's that simple.

 

TriggerHappy

Diabloii.Net Member
I sell items on Ebay because I am quiting diablo and might as well get a few dollars from it. You, who buys Ebay items are flat out stupid, you reasons for it are terrible, and you do not have enough common sense to realize it is just a game, and you are buying mere data on a server. You should be embarassed to buy items on Ebay, let alone make a thread on it. And yes, you are the reason duping is so popular.
 

Wuhan_Clan

Diabloii.Net Member
I have no reason to flame anyone for buying off Ebay because after all, its their own money so they can choose to do what ever they want with it. You can't say for sure that its either right or wrong.

This excerpt below was taken from another thread.
wuhan_clan said:
... when people buy items online, they are paying extra money for things they could have obtained simply by playing the game. The reason we play the game in the first place is because we want to have fun. For some people, fun means getting all the good items in the game without actually playing it. This is my personal reason for looking down upon people who buy items online. If you were going to buy a game, you might as well play it. Instead some people decide to pay even more money to play the game for them.

So in my opinion, people who buy D2 items online are cheating themselves of 1.) their money 2.) their fun
So if you can't seem to have enough fun with just the game, by all means spend the money on the items if that means you can have more fun.


Regarding the issue of Ebay and duping: duping will exist whether people buy items online or not. The question is, if there is a monetary demand for duped items, this would make duping desirable for a select few who have means of duping. Without Ebay, people would dupe for fun. With Ebay, people can still dupe for fun, but they can also dupe for a profit. Ask yourself this question: would you dupe for a real life profit if you knew how to dupe? I know I wouldn't only because I respect the game so much. But given any other game, I would do it in an instant.

I don't entirely blame Ebay for duping, but it certainly encourages it.
 

Xenon[XoA]

Banned
raffster said:
but before you flame me please read the rest of this post

Bah, sounds like you just sloughed off at that part Trigger... Its nice to read something relatively balanced once in a while..At least he showed the good/bad.

The Time > Money argument is probably the strongest.

But as Aragorn points out, if its against the EULA, its still cheating. No matter your intentions, raffster, or how "fair" it may seem.
 

Azonian

Diabloii.Net Member
Yeah, the issue is the number of people who will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Getting money from ebay from selling their virtual items is in what i call a "reward" Seeing that by selling more of their items gets them reward..many ebayers will resort to finding loopholes in the games that allow them to do what not... (rune duping episode anyone?) I know in your post you said that not all people sell/buy items are doing so for "bad" reasons. This system encourages those that do abuse gameplay and its flaws to find more means in which get more money and obtain/make more items..this leads to botting, duping, DOS attacks on servers..etc. Personally I would rather ebay went away because of those attraction it builds for money. Its bad enough this game is so damn addictive that people spend 18+ hrs a day playing but to add money into it.... Think about the benefits of an ebay free d2 community. No spam bots advertising sites, people spamming games about items they are selling on ebay, less encouragement for people to dupe (that usually create a DOS attack on the servers), less botting for items and ruining the d2 economy by flooding it with godly items (logic is that people will do it anyway...but they'll tire of the game because they cant improve anymore and sooner or later just go away. If you can make money off of it...well hell..who needs to work...just dl a bot and kill awayand i can laugh all those dumbf***s that actually work. These people will continue "playing" and spamming their wares and continue to create issues).

The only con to not having ebay is not having the item that you want right away. Personally this just seems to veil our inpatient nature and would most likely reflect our life values as well...hence the whole..well i dont have to work..i can selll d2 items.
 

toader

Banned
aragorn_elessar said:
Buying from Ebay is not bad in itself. However, buying items off of Ebay for D2x violates the EULA, and IS cheating.

That is what makes it wrong , it's that simple.


You know...I was thinking that exact same thing when I first read this thread.

The ideas presented are in fact very well thought out and good ideas, but regardless of good ideas, it is not our decision, it is Blizzards. So I searched thru the battle.net terms of agreement. And I couldnt find a damned thing saying anything about selling/buying their items. The only thing that I could remotely find saying anything against Ebaying would be this paragraph:

All title, ownership, and intellectual property rights in and to Battle.net (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into Battle.net, transcripts of the chat rooms, member profile information, recordings of games played on Battle.net, and software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors.
This part states that they own EVERYTHING. I guess by legal definition if they own it...others cant sell it. But its is very vague on the subject.
 

raffster

Diabloii.Net Member
TriggerHappy said:
I sell items on Ebay because I am quiting diablo and might as well get a few dollars from it. You, who buys Ebay items are flat out stupid, you reasons for it are terrible, and you do not have enough common sense to realize it is just a game, and you are buying mere data on a server. You should be embarassed to buy items on Ebay, let alone make a thread on it. And yes, you are the reason duping is so popular.
The bits and buys I am buying translate to entertainment value that I pay for with my own money so it's not just "data" I am paying for. If you cannot "see" beyond bits and bytes then I think we are clearly playing Diablo on different levels so further discussion is not necessary. You are sort of upset that I am buying stuff from Ebay but you yourself started off saying that you are hoping to "get a few dollars" by selling your account when you quit. So why are you angry (I infer that from your using the word "stupid") at people like me (however idiotic we may seem to you for buying Diablo stuff on Ebay) when you are actually going to benefit from us paying real money for your items. If we don't exist who will buy the items you are selling? I don't understand where your rage is coming from.

If you really think that my reasoning was that terrible, stand by your reasoning and don't try to make a profit on Ebay. Let your characters expire, "normally", it's just a game right?

Aragorn, I cannot argue with your point about violating the EULA. From this vantage alone nobody (not even Aristotle) can dispute you. However, the whole point of this thread goes above and beyond the EULA because buying and selling items on Ebay does exist, and we are here trying to determine (EULA aside) if buying/selling on Ebay is either totally inappropriate or appropriate in the context of fair gameplay. Because really, if Blizzard was so keen on enforcing their Battle.Net EULA, then why don't they ask Ebay to ban/prohibit selling and buying Diablo items like what Sony did to Everquest Ebayers? Apparently neither party cares. Hence this discussion. I appreciate your response and because you are a highly respected member in this forum it would be awesome if you could argue along the same lines if you choose to respond to upcoming/future replies.
 

Xenon[XoA]

Banned

The part you mentioned was Para.1 of the EULA, right?
part (v) of Para.3 mentions the dupes, but that boils down to the "are the ebay items duped or not" argument.
EULA said:
(v) utilize "Duplicated Items" on Battle.net including, but not limited to weapons, armor, rings, amulets, stones, staves, etc., which were created by exploiting a slow connection or "lag", programming error, or any other manner that allows You to utilize "duplicated characters" on the Battle.Net service and in the event that Blizzard discovers that you are utilizing such items on Battle.Net, you hereby acknowledge that Blizzard may, at its sole discretion, delete such items from your account on Battle.Net
Doesn't really reference Ebay, but I got this from the back of my Xpac manual. Maybe the classic manual had something different? Guess it wouldnt matter, cause the current one'd stand...

raffster said:
Because really, if Blizzard was so keen on enforcing their Battle.Net EULA, then why don't they ask Ebay to ban/prohibit selling and buying Diablo items like what Sony did to Everquest Ebayers?
Conspiracy!!!
 

Valind

Diabloii.Net Member
toader said:
You know...I was thinking that exact same thing when I first read this thread.

The ideas presented are in fact very well thought out and good ideas, but regardless of good ideas, it is not our decision, it is Blizzards. So I searched thru the battle.net terms of agreement. And I couldnt find a damned thing saying anything about selling/buying their items. The only thing that I could remotely find saying anything against Ebaying would be this paragraph:



This part states that they own EVERYTHING. I guess by legal definition if they own it...others cant sell it. But its is very vague on the subject.
Of course, if I were to be buying something on eBay, I wouldn't actually be buying "items." What the eBay sellers say in their auctions specifically in their disclaimers is that you're paying for their time to acquire the items and then the time to transfer it to you. In fact, all the disclaimers specifically also state "the items are property of Blizzard." It's true you can't sell what belongs to Blizzard (items) but you sure can sell what doesn't (your time).

In this context, no one is violating any EULA, hence it's not cheating.

That's the theory anyway.
 

muteownz

Diabloii.Net Member
i agree on what someone said. if you buy things on ebay and not get them on the game whats the point of playing... thats why i quit playing diablo the first time i had everything all my chars could want or need.. it got boring. i quit playing for 7 months. then i heard about some ladder new items.. new skill system i was like uahhhh. i started playing again. i'm not even near done playing. none of my chars are complete lol. well. i dont think buying ebay stuff is bad but not something a few mf runs couldnt get you... well quite a few :)
 

toader

Banned
Xenon[KoA] said:

The part you mentioned was Para.1 of the EULA, right?
part (v) of Para.3 mentions the dupes, but that boils down to the "are the ebay items duped or not" argument.

Doesn't really reference Ebay, but I got this from the back of my Xpac manual. Maybe the classic manual had something different? Guess it wouldnt matter, cause the current one'd stand...

Conspiracy!!!
[/QUOTE]


I dont think the "duped" or "not duped" is the reason it violates the EULA. As you said, theres no way to tell.

I think the part that does violate is the ownership part. Basically, Blizzard owns EVERYTHING, as you can see from the quote in my previous post. It is illegal to sell things that are owned by someone else. And as a buyer, I would assume that participating in the transaction would put you at fault as well.
 

toader

Banned
Valind said:
Of course, if I were to be buying something on eBay, I wouldn't actually be buying "items." What the eBay sellers say in their auctions specifically in their disclaimers is that you're paying for their time to acquire the items and then the time to transfer it to you. In fact, all the disclaimers specifically also state "the items are property of Blizzard." It's true you can't sell what belongs to Blizzard (items) but you sure can sell what doesn't (your time).

In this context, no one is violating any EULA, hence it's not cheating.

That's the theory anyway.
You know as well as I do, that those "disclaimers" people put up in their auctions would NOT hold up in court IF indeed Blizzard decided to take action to stop it.
 

Gorny

Banned
raffster said:
Aragorn, I cannot argue with your point about violating the EULA. From this vantage alone nobody (not even Aristotle) can dispute you. However, the whole point of this thread goes above and beyond the EULA because buying and selling items on Ebay does exist, and we are here trying to determine (EULA aside) if buying/selling on Ebay is either totally inappropriate or appropriate in the context of fair gameplay. Because really, if Blizzard was so keen on enforcing their Battle.Net EULA, then why don't they ask Ebay to ban/prohibit selling and buying Diablo items like what Sony did to Everquest Ebayers? Apparently neither party cares. Hence this discussion. I appreciate your response and because you are a highly respected member in this forum it would be awesome if you could argue along the same lines if you choose to respond to upcoming/future replies.
Ok, lets put the EULA aside. I do not think Blizzard would get anywhere asking Ebay to stop. More like they would have to resort to legal action - which would be very costly and time consuming for them, considering that some of the sellers are out of the country, this goes for hack selling sites as well but I am speeking more about Ebay here.

I do not think Blizzard has the financial rescources to pull something like that off, as they are already a small company and have had several people jump ship in the past, in addition to what happened with Vivendi.

Since I never had and do not have an interest with Everquest, or Evercrack as some of us here call it, I can't agree or disagree with what you said there.
 

Valind

Diabloii.Net Member
toader said:
You know as well as I do, that those "disclaimers" people put up in their auctions would NOT hold up in court IF indeed Blizzard decided to take action to stop it.
And just how do you know that?

Are you an attorney who has litigated such things before? If so, please point to which section of Article 2 the Uniform Commercial Code that would bear your statement out?
 

TriggerHappy

Diabloii.Net Member
Ok, I see your point. But here is the equation I see:

Money > Diablo

Diablo = Whatever you paid for the game itself.

And

What I am doing with my free time > Playing Diablo
 

LordDrift

Diabloii.Net Member
Ok,

Buying off EBAY doesnt mean its bad, I admit I sold my account off of ebay back then and made 110 bucks. Basically, its all on peoples choice who cares if they do, does it hurt you? if they spend der money the way they want
 

Starseed

Diabloii.Net Member
I didn't go through every last response, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I don't see it as an issue of good vs. bad but simply a matter of why?

I work 40+ very exhausting hours a week for my paycheck, granted 95% of it goes right into the bank for my upcoming move and going back to school but.. with the other 5%, I don't think I could ever spend it on what are otherwise 'free' items in a game.

I just never understood the whole 'buying D2 items off Ebay' thing (though, I've never bought ANYTHING off Ebay or any other online auction site). If I'm going to do anything with that money, it's going to be something that probably requires me to be away from the computer (except for certain things like rare CDs or clothes that I can't find around here).

Like I said, I bust my butt for what I make and to spend it on a game where I can simply find items (and have fun/meet people) doing so.. spending money on them would make me feel like I was a little -too- into the game and probably in need of a serious detox..

But hey, if it works for you, then by all means, have a ball. I'd just personally rather spend my money on things I can enjoy more personally.
 

Zechs_Zechs

Diabloii.Net Member
I dont believe in buying items with reall $$$. Just me. There is just no comparrison to getting an item *(like when I found my gheeds) than buying it.
 
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