If he was armed would they still be alive?

Dirty_Zulu

Diabloii.Net Member
If he was armed would they still be alive?

NEW SMYRNA BEACH -- "I think they're dead."

With those words, 5-year-old Tia Hernlen described finding the bleeding bodies of her mother and father to a Sheriff's Office dispatcher early Monday morning.

Thirty-one year old Julie Hernlen was dead in the bedroom of the family's Ellison Avenue home. Her 29-year-old husband, Aeneas, was critically wounded. Both had been shot multiple times.

Volusia County sheriff's investigators believe the couple were the victims of David Edward Johnson, 33, whom they had accused of stalking them because he believed they had turned him in for drug activity. The couple had filed complaints against Johnson, accusing him of stalking them because he believed they had turned him in to law enforcement for drug activity, public records show. Investigators said Monday the Hernlens had given them no information on Johnson.

But it was a little girl's taped 911 call at 2:58 a.m., after being awakened by the gunshots, that told the personal story of the tragedy. While her name is omitted from the recordings of the 911 tape released Monday afternoon, deputies at the scene confirmed her name.

"I think there is a bullet on the floor," the youngster told sheriff's 911 dispatcher Donna Choufani. "There is blood coming out of my dad's mouth and he fell off the bed."

"Where is your mommy?" Choufani asked in a soothing voice. "I don't know. I think they're dead," Tia replied. "I said 'mommy and daddy' and they didn't even answer. I didn't see a gun, but I am scared."

The youngster told Choufani she never saw her parents' assailant. Choufani used her voice to keep the youngster calm and on the line until a deputy arrived about four minutes later.

Sheriff Ben Johnson described the recorded conversation as "chilling" during a news conference at the scene Monday afternoon.

"The little girl did a magnificent job," he said. "And the dispatcher did a wonderful job."

Investigators believe Johnson forced his way into the back of the Hernlens' small, single-story yellow house in the 100 block of Ellison Avenue and walked into the couple's bedroom. There, he shot them with an undisclosed type of gun then fled back to his home.

The unemployed New Smyrna Beach resident was accused in court documents of stalking the couple and threatening their family in December and January. Julie Hernlen told deputies Johnson had driven by the house several times and harassed them because he thought she and her husband had informed on him to law enforcement about drug activity at the Swan Avenue residence, Davidson said.

Johnson had been arrested in November on charges of cultivation of marijuana, possession of steroids and possession of drug paraphernalia. He was scheduled for trial May 9, according to court records. The trial on the stalking charge was set for May 2...
This is a slightly older story. I was just reminded of this story because my sister in-law called and want to know if she should get a gun for protection since she moved to a new place.

There're a few things that went wrong in the above story:

- According to an interview, the father asked the grandfather, a retired cop, for a weapon but the grandfather told him to rely on the sherif department. Apparently he thinks civilians shouldn't own guns or rely on themselves for protection.

- The couple apparently feared the suspect and tried to get a court-ordered injunction to keep him away from their family. However, a judge denied the request and now he's going to have to live with his mistakes.

Poor girl had to witness the bloodied bodies of her parents.

That's why I believe everyone should be armed to the teeth. At least I'd die fighting.

Suppose the guy broke the door and woke the parents and if the father had a gun would they still be alive?
 
And suppose he's a heavy sleeper and she sleeps with earplugs because of his snoring. They'd be just as dead.

What makes people think that they're going to be able to wake up, become aware enough, locate their weapon, load it, and have it ready all before something like this could happen? If you can do all of that in a few seconds silently enough, the gun's probably too easy for the 5 year old to get a hold of and set off to begin with.
 

Steel_Avatar

Diabloii.Net Member
Only James Bond sleeps with a gun under his pillow.

I'm not saying I disagree with the right to bear arms, Zulu. I just think that this is a piss-poor example to use to try and illustrate the need for guns.
 

Vae Victus

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm a fence sitter. At one end, in a paranoid propaganda-filled country like America, it seems like accidental deaths and violent crimes dwarf the amount of people who are legitimately better off because of guns. On the other end, banning guns really doesn't solve any problems that cause violence, just an easy means to execute violence.

Of course, I never really defined "crime" the same way rich governments do. When some billionaire is sitting in a hot tub eating thousand-dollar plates while thousands of people starve every day, that's crime to me. Killing people like that, I really don't have a problem with, hah.

I suppose it comes down to a case-by-case basis. I don't know. I try not to really think about stuff like this anymore, because it'll never really make much of a difference most of the time. I'm not a leader, and even if I could, I wouldn't trick the herd into thinking the same way I do (ahem, Rush Limbaugh). I just don't have the time to think of how it should be in a perfect world, and how it should be right now to edge towards that perfect world, etc. Maybe I'm just tired. :p
 
How is this already a referedum on guns in general? Zulu's question was whether or not this family would have managed to survive if they'd had guns. It's not like these people were denied a gun by the law. He asked for a gun from someone else, and I'm assuming that since he was not a gun owner himself, he wasn't licensed to own one.

Handguns aren't toys that should be or can be lent to your neighbors and friends. They're dangerous weapons, and there's a good reason why you can't walk down to Wal Mart and come home with a 9mm. If this guy had wanted a gun, he could have had one, it just would have taken a while for him to go through the application process.
 

Vae Victus

Diabloii.Net Member
Oh, I'm terribly sorry to have wasted your time forcing you to read my post... just kidding.

Okay, then to answer the question, no, they wouldn't.
 

Stoutwood

Diabloii.Net Member
If anything, these forums have made me much more against gun control than I originally was. I used to think that there should be some "reasonable" gun control, and every time this topic comes up, which it does frequently, I pray for one of the proponents of gun control to make a good point and one that I can actually understand and respect. I like to at least see where the other side is coming from. But after that .50 Caliber topic, I saw no reason to have ANY gun control.

I just have one thing that could be used as a good compromise - make everyone take Hunter's Safety. I see no reason why a person who owns a weapon should be against learning how to store and operate it safely. On the plus side, the two day to week-long period that the class takes would be enough of a "cooldown" period for someone considering a crime of passion, which is what most gun control advocates seem to be afraid of.
 

jimmyboy

Diabloii.Net Member
Dirty_Zulu said:
This is a slightly older story. I was just reminded of this story because my sister in-law called and want to know if she should get a gun for protection since she moved to a new place.

There're a few things that went wrong in the above story:

- According to an interview, the father asked the grandfather, a retired cop, for a weapon but the grandfather told him to rely on the sherif department. Apparently he thinks civilians shouldn't own guns or rely on themselves for protection.

- The couple apparently feared the suspect and tried to get a court-ordered injunction to keep him away from their family. However, a judge denied the request and now he's going to have to live with his mistakes.

Poor girl had to witness the bloodied bodies of her parents.

That's why I believe everyone should be armed to the teeth. At least I'd die fighting.

Suppose the guy broke the door and woke the parents and if the father had a gun would they still be alive?
On one hand yes.

But on the other hand, you can argue that stricter gun control could have prevented the shooter from getting the murder weapon.

And at the very least, one can argue that this was a special situation where the victim has demonstrated need for a gun. His life was at risk. He even spent money on a lawyer to seek a restraining order.

But... why didn't he just go buy a shotgun? It's not that difficult to lawfully buy one.
 

Ranger14

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree with Drunk again! :D I am pretty much in line with what he and Steel said.

People press the issue of having a gun for self defense. Many times all that does is give you a false sense of security. I use to teach women's self-defense and one of the things we would stress is that no matter how secure you feel, anyone can freeze in confrontational situation. Also taking a short self-defense program isn't going to teach you the instincts and intuition it takes to handle yourself in that kind of situation. You need to practice and train until it becomes second nature to you.

Going out a purchasing a gun is going to work the same way. Especially if you are surprised and don't have the gun on your person, you are S.O.L. anyway.

A loaded gun and a little girl or kid in the house = not a good situation
An unloaded gun and an aggressor in the house = not a good situation

A gun in the house really isn't going to help that much.
 

Stoutwood

Diabloii.Net Member
jimmyboy said:
But... why didn't he just go buy a shotgun? It's not that difficult to lawfully buy one.
Good question, especially when a shotgun is the most effective self-defense weapon that you can buy.

EDIT: And I've also never understood why people keep their guns loaded, considering it takes less then 2 seconds to slam a clip in, or a little more if you are putting shells into the magazine of a shotgun.
 

theBlackKnight

Diabloii.Net Member
Stoutwood said:
Good question, especially when a shotgun is the most effective self-defense weapon that you can buy.

EDIT: And I've also never understood why people keep their guns loaded, considering it takes less then 2 seconds to slam a clip in, or a little more if you are putting shells into the magazine of a shotgun.

If you leave the breech open, you can just slap in a shell, and, in some states, the pumping of the shotgun can be legally considered a warning shot, so if they dont haul butt outta their, they are legally shootable.

Check your state laws before shooting people though.
 
Riiiight.

I don't know about you folks, but if I fart too loud in the middle of the night and wake up, I don't know what planet I'm on let alone where my gun is and that it needs to be loaded and ready in .2 seconds to kill the guy coming to get me. Someone breaks in to kill me, gun or no, I'm toast.

Now do you honestly expect a guy who's never handled any gun in his life, ever, to suddenly buy a freaking shotgun, have it close by enough to his bed to even stand a chance at getting to it, and not to be shaking so goddamned hard he can't get the shells into the breach? Puhhhleeeze. You're dreaming.

Hell, he'd probably have gotten the kid killed too.

A gun does not automatically=instant safety, sorry folks. A gun in the hands of someone trained to use one, perhaps. I still say someone sound asleep who was caught in their bed as it was wouldn't stand a chance anyway. If they were on the floor by their bed, they might have gotten 2 feet. So he sat up in bed when the bedroom door opened was dead before his feet hit the floor. Same with the wife. Someone please tell me where a gun in the room would have done anything besides make him sleep harder?
 

Necrolestes

Diabloii.Net Member
Guns don't kill people...I do

I'd sleep through my own murder, given my depth of sleep.

I think Ranger14 and DC makes good points: you can't keep a loaded gun in the house with a 5 year old unless it's locked in a gun safe (where it does no one any good because safes take time to open and by the time you have the gun in hand, you're as good as dead). Unless they knew beforehand that the guy was going to make an attempt that night on their lives, having a gun of their own would not have made any real difference. With the exception of military personnel and experienced shooters, it takes a small amount of time to load and ready a gun (the experts can do it in their sleep but the amateurs...) so keeping an unloaded gun out in the open with ammo nearby is just pointless (safer for the kid, because there's a much smaller chance of her shooting herself if the gun's unloaded and she doesn't know how to load it; useless in a combat situation).
 

Anakha1

Banned
Go with alarm systems. Having a gun means they would have been just as likely to shoot a friendly.

Never trust your average civilians with firearms.
 
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