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Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by Borje, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Hi!

    I have been doing some thinking... How about a 105 FCR sorc using spirit with GA+crafted safety amu to get a decent shield blocking?

    The idea of gear setup would be like this:

    Shako
    HOTO
    Guardian Angel
    Spirit Monarch 35fcr
    crafted safety amu with 2/10/10/mana or something
    2*soj
    arach
    Treks boots or crafted

    A kinda cool thing sould be getting the repl. life up kinda high. It comes from hoto and it can come from crafted boots/amus and it would help regaining that small piece of life that slipps through my block and ES, what do you think?

    I haven't found any guides to a 105 fcr fire ball sorcs so my first real question shouuld perhaps be are 200 fcr sorcs allways better than 105 sorcs? I see a few advantages with this build: more +skills and more +max mana to get a bigger mana pool. Max block. What do you think...?

    thx in adv..
     
  2. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    I like the originality of the idea, but there are a few points that I think make it a little bit of a stretch:

    Assuming you have Anni, Torch, and all the good stuff, you're still spending these stat points:
    ~100 in Strength
    ~150 in Dexterity

    ... combined, that will leave you 150-200 to spend in Energy & Vit. You could go base-vit and get your mana up fairly decently high - but then every time you encounter poison, it's going to really tear you up (the same for Open Wounds in PvP) because of your low life. From my own experience with ES sorcs, I still like to throw a few points in Vitality (around 100) to help when encountering those (or manaburn)... leaving you a very small Energy investment (although you do seem to have a lot of +mana... so maybe this concern is unfounded).

    Next up, the replenish from equipment provides roughly +1 life per ~11 points from equipment. So, it'll take a ton of replenish to be moderately effective - and it's still always going to be overridden by Poison and Open Wounds every time you get hit with those. Having replenish obviously never hurts, but I wouldn't count on this mod for anything significant, and therefore I wouldn't actively pursue it.

    Looking at this setup, most of your resists seem kindof low. Sure ES makes up for that quite a bit, but having decent resists is certainly never a bad thing. I know you loose on the +skills, but I'd consider a Wizardspike instead. It'll allow you to skip FCR on the amulet (which probably will make a good crafted amulet a ton easier to find), improve your resists by 35-45 points, and the +mana on it blows HotO out of the water.

    Also, since you probably won't be taking advantage of the +max resists on Guardian Angel, then a Twitchthroe (unique Studded Leather) might actually be a better fit... a little extra +blocking, and some FHR and +stats. You would loose the FBR though, and sorcs are a little slow in their blocking, so maybe the GA is still a better choice (read: in PvP where an 8-frame block is very slow).

    A nitpick: I don't really see this having more +skills than a 200 FCR sorc. What you gain on the extra SoJ, you loose on the armour. :p

    Another nitpick: You didn't mention gloves, but it looks like Frostburn is a great fit if you don't need FCR from that slot (and if the PvP crowd thinks your damage is reasonable enough without Magefists - which I'd like to see an educated opinion on).


    I don't play PvP enough to tell you a serious opinion of 105-vs-200 FCR, but I have tried max-block/105 for a few builds in PvM (and no-block/200). My personal preferrence is definitely in favour of no-block/200. It's simply more fun for PvM.


    *****
    I'd be curious to see this idea tried in-game though - the further I've gotten into typing up this response, the more I've thought your ideas could work with the right plan and good equipment wealth... :scratch:

    ... great job!



    PS. By the way, are you thinking of this for PvP? Or pure PvM? Or both? With the single-element attack and max-block, it seems like a natural PvP build to me - but then I'd be a little concerned if your damage is sufficient (I don't know enough PvP to judge).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2008
  3. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Indeed looks like pvp but I'll wait for him to confirm :p
     
  4. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Sorry for the double post - I just realized sorcs have 9-frame block without anything boosting Faster Block Rate. (Correction from the 8-frames previously mentioned). With that speed, I'd suspect block-lock could be a big problem in PvP.

    The Guardian Angel would lower you down to 6-frame block recovery, which sounds a lot more reasonable (again, I lack enough experience in PvP to offer a complete opinion).


    FYI, here are the FBR breakpoints for sorcs (I think):

    0 = 9 frame recovery
    7 = 8 frames
    15 = 7 frames
    27 = 6 frames
    48 = 5 frames
    86 = 4 frames
    200 = impossible = 3 frames


    Edit: Another small correction from above: +11 replenish life (from equipment) = +1 life per second... roughly.
     
  5. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Hi!

    Thx for the answers. This was indeed ment to be a PvP char..

    Poop, you are right about the res being low.. I wanted to use HOTO over Wizzy to get those extra skills and that bit of repl. life. But perhaps I could change to wizzy to not need the FCR from the amu. This would leave me with enough FCR from just wiz, shield and arach. However, not using magies could be bad since I'd loose another skillpoint towards my dmg... even though frosties could help my ES quite a bit..

    Also, I do not think that a 9 frame block will suffice so I'll stick to GA and a safety amu, I think..

    You are right about the skillpoints, I was mainly thinking about using hoto instead of wizzy as a 200 fcr sorc, but it can be done with hoto too. However, I'd be gaining the max block, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, pretty much impossible on a 200 fcr build..

    what are your thoughts?

    EDIT: My plan is not to put any points in ES but to use a 9 es memory staff to prebuff, if my calculations are right I'd have a lvl 21 ES which only gives a 75% absorb. Will this be enough or do I need to loose even more dmg to get my ES up? a low ES will leave me with more dmg going to life so I have another idea.. howabout using GA+safety amu with Stormshield whenever I need blocking (since DR% often will help in those moment too), this would give me a shieldblocking of 87+(1-10 depending on amu-roll) which is higher than whistans! Wouldn't this save me quite some stats? (yeah, sure, I can do the math myself but I'm to tired now :p)

    oh, no, thats right, just realized stormshield would lower my casting speed, strike that :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2008
  6. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    pretty much - it may be technically possible to attain, but in my opinion, 200FCR and max-block really isn't feasible.

    I agree with all of your points.

    The +3 on HotO is a definite asset, and possibly outweighs the other benefits of Wizardspike. Likewise, if your damage is reasonably high with Wizardspike, then it's other benefits might outweigh the +3 on HotO... this might require "a little math" to figure out, or it might simply be close enough of a difference to be a personal preference matter.

    Likewise, I agree with pursuing the benefits of Magefists (if you don't NEED the mana on the Frostburns). If Magefists are your gloves, then it removes the need for FCR on the amulet (which removes one advantage of Wizardspike over HotO).

    Finally, I also agree with GA over Twitchthroe for PvP too. Part of the reason I prefer no-block on most of my PvM sorcs is because block-lock feels frustratingly slow (and getting enough life to avoid hit recovery most times, as well as boosting FHR reasonably high, is fairly easy). If I played more PvP, I'd probably learn to tolerate sorc's slow blocking speeds though - but I think some FBR would still be a good asset.



    I'd like to hear some educated opinions from the PvP crowd though. My guess is your possibly low mana (relative to other ES PvP sorcs) and/or the (possibly) low damage are the bigger drawbacks.

    I'd also like to see this idea actually tried in-game. For example, I was convinced by general consensus that Frost Nova wasn't very good (for PvM), then I tried it, and was pleasantly surprised that it can actually be a very solid skill (with good equipment and skill investment)...

    This idea might be like that too - where the initial reaction is skeptical, but objective usage proves it's actually a very viable idea. :thumbsup:



    ****
    Didn't see your edit. Someone else more experienced in PvP and/or ES-sorcs should probably tackle those points.



     
  7. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    thx again for the answers and ideas, poop!

    Atm I am very stressed and can't write much of a long answer, because I am going away for a few days to party ^^. But I would really like to hear some ideas from fireball pvp experts. What would be the dmg I would need from my fire ball to make this sorc work?

    thx fo rall the help!
     
  8. mephiztophelez

    mephiztophelez IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    200fcr max block IS possible, just rather difficult

    use a Wizknife/suicide branch and a lidless wall

    helm: 20
    ammy: 20
    belt: 20
    glubs: 20
    rings: 20
    shield: 20
    armor: 30
    wep: 50
    =
    200 yuh?

    the "problem" here is that a lidless is a rather ugly candidate for blocking, it will need a fair bit of dex to achieve. less than with a spirit, but still a reasonable investment.

    as for damage, 14-15k+ and you're good to go.

    if you're planning on ES as well, i'd be wanting some seriously impressive fire/lifer gc's and life/mana sc's......

    honestly, if you're planning on max-block, i rekon a 105fcr build with a whistans or similar is probably a better all-round bet. doubly so if you're contemplating ES.
     
  9. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Well, I am not interrested in max block with a lidless. The dex req would be too high. But what do you think about my idea for a max block with spirit? Would it work?

    14-15k fire ball dmg would work for a 200 fcr sorc? what would the dmg need to be for it work on a 105 fcr?

    thx for the help!
     
  10. mephiztophelez

    mephiztophelez IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    err, i think it's a really, really bad idea. your block-rate will be rather low and you'll still need a significant dex investmet for block, not to mention the 156 str req on the damn shield in the first place.

    but thats just me.

    14-15k is what i reccomend as a "minimum" to get started with in PvP in my fire guide. the higher the better, obviously.

    105%fcr FB sorcs can crack 25k+ damage without too much hassle.



     
  11. sirpoopsalot

    sirpoopsalot IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    14-15k is easily attainable with this build (with equipment that'll be less "hassle" than a 25k+ fireball). Using the skills calc, I got 18.6k average at level85, and 20.3k average at level90.

    <--- (that was with no hard points in ES, Static or Cold Armours, not counting any +damage like on socketed facets, and counting on 9 skillers, torch&anni, and CtA prebuff in addition to Borje's equipment).

    ...but on top of that you'd have ~75% ES and max-block. If you can get the life & mana up high enough (possibly a very big IF)... couldn't this work?



    Also, Borje, maybe if the life & mana stats turn out "too low"... consider going with ~60% block on the Spirit? (just an idea)



     
  12. Noite Escura

    Noite Escura IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Blocking is 42% with Monarch and 40% with Lidless, I don't see much of a difference. With Lidless you would have much more stat points available due to low str req and you can also Shael it for 7 frame block rate. I still think it wouldn't work though...



     
  13. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Well, I thank you for your opinion, but the whole point of my question was: would it be viable using Guardian Angel + crafted Safety amulet to get up to +30% shield blocking and 30 FBR from GA?



    Well, getting to lvl 90 would be like a minimum, I think. And I guess I will do enough dmg with that setup, I think. But I feel like the +3 from hoto will be needed.. I am not ready to start buildning this char, I have just been getting my BvC ready to start training dueling strategy =) This will be my next char, however! =)


     
  14. Noite Escura

    Noite Escura IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    I guess it would be viable. Not optimal though.
     
  15. VoX Dei

    VoX Dei IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc


    I don't pvp and rather go vita/no ES over block/ES pvm-wise anytime, but still i do like to optimize things.

    So, my 2 cents,

    IMHO, both 200fcr max block (vmagi + lidless "eld") and 105fcr max block (ga + spirit) setups will cost roughly the same statwise (i.e., ~300 points) independently of where (dex or str) you put them. The "real" differences are the damage (200fcr gains by 1 fpc) and the block rate (105fcr gains by 3 fpb). I consider fpb>fpc for a max block settup so my preference here is 105fcr max block too.

    @ Borje,

    I like your idea.

    In fact i liked it so much that i did some math. A Clvl 90 sorc using Spirit would require 337 dex for 75% blocking vs. using only GA + Spirit, 233 dex (GA = 104 dex saved!!!) vs. using GA + Spirit + 10% ICB safety amulet, 203 dex. So with this settup, a 10% ICB safety amulet will translate into 30 dex which in turn translate into 30 str, 60 life, etc etc. Meaning, you have a much broader selection of amulets to choose from than you originally thought.



     
  16. Borje

    Borje Banned

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Vox dei: thx for your ideas, and thx for taking the time to do some caculations! I kinda thought that might be the case (that the block-amu isn't that much needed). I extended the calculations some: using a whistan's guard would need 170 dex. So a few possibilities:

    Whistans
    dex needed: 170
    stats: 40% FBR, a socket
    freeing up armour slot for, for example, Vipermagi, CoH or something else that is cool =)

    Spirit Monarch+GA
    dex needed: 233
    stats: 35% FCR, +2skills, ~100 mana, 55%FHR, some res, +22 vitality
    armour: 30% FBR, +15% max res

    The way I see it, you kinda have to make a coise: do I want a really PIMP shield, or a really PIMP armour =) 63 stat points is kind of a lot, but still: save the stat points, can I get all the cool things of a spirit on the armour? It's quite a hassle, and I'm not sure it's better - but I like the idea ;)
     
  17. VoX Dei

    VoX Dei IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    Thank you for kind words, Borje. No trouble at all, a pleasure. I've been toying around a little more with the possibilities you came up with and have additional suggestions.

    Suggestions:

    - caster belt with 10fcr/24fhr (mandatory) ideally with high +str and/or life/resists, for this particular build > arach;

    - definitely treks; 20% fhr is 80 life in terms of sc's and 30 stats is 60 life statwise, so +140 life and +70 Pres which is conveniently a type of damage ES doesn't cover make this boots #1;

    - magefists; the 20fcr on it are needed plus it also has +1 fire skills;

    - shako and GA both socketed shael;

    - mara's/rare/crafted amulet; no fcr needed here, just the +2 skills, resists, and the more stats the merrier.

    Summary of the assets provided by the above gear selection:

    - solid 8fpc
    - solid 12 skills excluding any charm in inventory
    - solid 6fpb
    - excellent (for a sorc!) and easily attainable 6fph (just 1 sc with fhr is required)
    - all resists in the positives; very high poison resist, less than optimal fire res, but all can easily be worked out with sc's

    Concerning Whitstan's + VMagi/CoH, i've got to the conclusion that they are somewhat inferior. the major drawback, is the huge difficulty to get decent FHR%. That being said, although they are less expensive builds stat-wise, ironically they end up providing less useful stats (life/mana) by relying too much on charms to achieve decent FHR (7fph bp at 86%fhr), which is still less than what GA/Spirit can offer.



     
  18. shanelee

    shanelee IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    my es 105fcr mb setup:
    hoto (40)
    vmage[30)
    circlet(20)
    arachi(20)
    for 110fcr

    shield: Whista/eld.
    Anny: 2sorc 10%block mana craft ammy (cheap)

    I believe I max'd block at lvl 90 with only 130dex.
    The best part with wistan also has +40% Fast block rate


    You are looking at around 80 more dex in order to mb with spirit.
    With ZERO Fast block rate. Unless you sacrifice the armor slot for
    GA, compromising skill/fcr which kind make using spirit pointless.


    edit: my setup is made around 10x 5fhr/17mana scs and 9x skillers in mind, I always prefer fhr on charms and stat/life on gears.

    simply because 5fhr/17mana = 1-2 hr, 20life/17mana = lol 15-20 hrs and mana > life for an es build anyway if you have already hit around 1k life after BO. I rather save stat and put them in energy (1 energy = 4 mana) than invest stats and get more than neccesary lifes ( only true on es build).


    I
     
  19. shanelee

    shanelee IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    No one mentioned this BIG problem using spirit with GA in the thread.
    156 str req for the spirit without Enigma. Ouch.

    assuming perfect anni and torch, you will still need 100+ str from other gears.

    You can say 2x 10fcr 20str rings etc but then you are also losing 2skills and massive mana from sojs which is essential for ES build.
     
  20. VoX Dei

    VoX Dei IncGamers Member

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    Re: Ideas on a 105 FCR FB ES/max block SPIRIT sorc

    @ Shanelee,

    First, seems like i've upset you, so I would like to apologize. Again, i have no experience pvp whatsoever, and this build certainly is not meant for use pvm. So take my words as a grain of salt, they come from a purely theoretical viewpoint. I was just discussing how to make Borje's idea viable, and perhaps got overexcited defending it (i.e., saying that it was bettter than this or that setup, but the thing is it's hard to tell without making comparisons).

    I believe you have max block at Clvl 90 with 130 in dex + other bonuses from gear like the +10 dex from Hoto. Spirit + GA provide 30% FBR. Both 30% and 40% FBR correspond to 6fpb, so no real difference here.

    The dexterity req for spirit to achieve max block even with GA is considerable superior to a whistan's setup, i give you that. Using Spirit + GA doesn't compromise skills/fcr imho. Actually, Spirit + GA 2/35 > Whitstan+Vmagi 1/30.

    You are absolutely right. I did not take any prices into consideration when i suggested that the 55%FHR on spirit coud be translated into useful stats (life) in order to overcome spirit's high dex investment issue by using mana/life sc's instead of mana/fhr sc's. I don't have much awareness of prices as i play sp selffound exclusively. Taking into consideration that we are talking about an ES build, perhaps you are right that spirit+ga will give way too much life and not enough mana. If that's the case a possible solution to balance life/mana would be +2/10fcr amulet + frosties + arach instead of amu +2 + magefist + 10/24/extras caster belt. On a sidenote, 1 energy = 2 mana, not 4.

    If you take into consideration Spirit's bonuses, specifically the +vita/mana, the steep 156 str req in fact ranges from 78 str to 90 str depending on how much +mana your Spirit has (89-112 mana), so it's not that big of a problem (cf. an upped vmagi for instance still requires 84 str). There is no need to swap the SoJs over 10fcr+str rings. The suggested spirit+ga setup provides the required 105fcr.

    In summary, from a theoretical viewpoint, i believe Borje's idea is a good/viable one, but can't really tell if it fairs any better than other already proved to work setups. Only ingame experimentation can tell that.



     

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