Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

Ishtor

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

What can't the ranged class be holy? And where is your summoner/shapshifter?

It's a bit more complicated then that.


P.S. I agree with the idea, yet the implementation might be more complicated than that.
i agree, chance i am right is slim. and the range class could be holy i guess, but is a holy ranged person called?

Also there is no garentee there will be a shape shifting class. they already stated the no go on the druid, and what other class do we know that can have shape shifting powers. and the WD is a summoner.

No new class is going to be a duplicate of a past class, so you probally will not see that combo with shape shifting/summoning, unless it come in an expansion.

beside i dont find shape shifting as one of the 5 prime classes.


 

ThomasJ

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

My guess we will see a Dark Knight scythe weilding class that can also cast spells and we will see a rogue that uses ranged holy attacks.
 

LaZeR

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

and the range class could be holy i guess, but is a holy ranged person called?
Demon Slayer.

they already stated the no go on the druid, and what other class do we know that can have shape shifting powers..
Demonic Shapeshifting.

I can elaborate on both of them but I think it's pretty clear.
IMO, the 100% sure Range class could be either a Good Ranger (this way his unique skill tree will be Holy powers) or a Bad Ranger (with a unique skills tree of traps and tricks).
I might be narrow minded, but I just don't see any other way. Suprize me Blzzard


 
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jakotaco

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

A ranger consist of two things. A ranged (bow) side and a mele (dual wielding swords) side. This means that a third side is open for creative ideas.

And don't forget there are even ways to be creative with (cross)bows. Just read some of the ideas proposed here.
That dualwielding thing is just D&D, wouldn't say that is something really ranger specific. Although many fantasy world are of course heavily influenced by D&D. When it comes to a a meleeing woodsman I'd probably see a wooden staff or spear as more befitting, or possibly some hunting knife.



 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

When it comes to a a meleeing woodsman I'd probably see a wooden staff or spear as more befitting, or possibly some hunting knife.

I think dual wielding light sword or daggers gives a better agile impression about the character, specially if there are passive skills made to increase the speed and accuracy of daggers and light swords when duel wielded.

IMO the spears are just feel Amazon to me.


 
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NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

That dualwielding thing is just D&D, wouldn't say that is something really ranger specific. Although many fantasy world are of course heavily influenced by D&D.
True, yet else, what's the difference with an archer? You need something, and that something seems to be dual wielding (swords).



 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

True, yet else, what's the difference with an archer? You need something, and that something seems to be dual wielding (swords).
Indeed .. i can imagine that class having passive skills like "dual wielding daggers mastery" or "dual wielding swords mastery" that increase the speed of attacks and accuracy for single handed swords or daggers when dual wielded, actually a similar mastery could be given to the barb but instead his damage would increase when dual wielding any weapons.

There can also be a passive skill for the ranger/raider/hunter class that allows for a slight chance of blocking when dual wielding swords.


 

Chorkstain

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

Yes it does. that barbarian is designed to jump (almost) mindless into a large group of monsters. Just look at the skills whirlwind an leap attack. Or that stun skill that stun the monsters around him. Or look at the game play video.
However, the character proposed Knight_Wolf does not have the needed defensive features to survive a game play like that. He needs to play more strategic, use certain skills to keep monsters away from him so he can take out the monsters on at a time, rather then all at a time.
This means that a combination strategic skills as well as retrieve tactics have to used without damage your killing speed.

It can be quite different. Just look at the way assassins play in DII. Safe for those with very good gear, often they will try to fight but a few monsters at a time by using mind blast, Cloak of Shadows, freeze from Blades of Ice and a mele merc and shadow master.
A heavy release of phoenix strike however will still result in a multi target skill eventhough the monsters close to them will be limited to just a few in ideal cases. as far as I know, there isn't a chaos pvm assassin, why?
OK, point taken. I'm not entirely sure this is to do with statistics like attack speed, damage and so forth as I was putting it, but rather to do with skill sets. However I see your point. So I have to ask some questions:

Barbarians. You're saying they have a different approach to melee combat, that is, this other class is focussed on taking on foes in as small groups as possible, but then what is the Barbarian strategy? Do they prefer to take on guys in big groups where they are outnumbered? This sounds illogical, however given the fury mechanism in place in addition to his repertoire of area attacks it might be OK. Then again I don't know that it would hold water in D2. So there's a little question mark there.

The raider would actually be a mix between amazons (accuracy and ranged attacks) and assassins (fast melee combat and traps), and assassins like Nase are melee fighters who fight in a completely different way from barbs .. you can't actually be thinking that Barbs are the only way to make a melee fighter !!!
Here a few things are a bit unclear for me.

The last sentence, I wonder. The Barbarian has immense scope, conceivably. You could spread his skills so that he's accurate and fast, or resilient and strong. So there could be other ways of making a melee fighter, but I think it's going to take more than making him faster and weaker and so forth. Also who said the Assassin necessarily defines fast melee combat? The Barbarian was fast too and also had abilities which exemplified this. Another thing, as far as I could tell, the Assassin's traps were just area spells by another name. That's important, because to me it seems that these traps don't so much supplement as replace melee combat.

(OK, now don't discount everything I say here, but just a secret: I never played an Assassin with traps. I'm actually assuming that traps and martial arts were rarely integrated effectively. Do correct me if I'm wrong.)

The most salient concern for me is that maybe some people are citing stats (like attack speed, damage, accuracy) as foundations for a character class who distinguishes himself from another rather than different skill philosophy, which is not convincing to me.

OK, now tell me why I'm wrong again. :thumbup:


 

Chorkstain

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

Sorry for the double post.

i agree, chance i am right is slim. and the range class could be holy i guess, but is a holy ranged person called?
This question I am ALWAYS asking myself, because I think it would be a damn brilliant idea!

beside i dont find shape shifting as one of the 5 prime classes.
'Shapeshifting' is a thematic skin for what I'd call a 'modal playing style'. By which I mean, the class switches between modes to suit different situations. What the Paladin might have been if there was more importance placed on switching between auras.

The point I'm making here is that you could create a class who could be construed as a primary class, but he'd have exactly the same gameplay as a shapeshifter and you wouldn't notice the difference (In mathematics this is similar to the concept of an isomorphism). Same gameplay, different name, different aesthetic. Like, just the other day I posted a class idea called the Channeler, but it was basically a Shapeshifter, but I didn't want to call it that so I switched some words around. You could make a martial arts class that switches between stances. Still a shapeshifter.


 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

'Shapeshifting' is a thematic skin for what I'd call a 'modal playing style'. By which I mean, the class switches between modes to suit different situations. What the Paladin might have been if there was more importance placed on switching between auras.
It doesn't work like that in diablo II. I don't think there is a single build that utilises both werewolf and werebear forms, and very few that use werewolf or werebear in combination with human form. One of the reason is the annoying cast time I believe, something you can't get around.

However, shapeshifting has an other use in diablo II. It introduces elements to mele play that you could in implement on other character, such as the barbarian or paladin (and they are cool too according to some).
Take forinstance rabies. You can put in on the barbarian or paladin. They simply don't have that kind of magic. Or take the leech skills, again, it doesn't work. Heck, even Fire Claws wouldn't really fit any other character.
And in a game where leech won't be on weapons (diablo III), it's interesting to offer limited leech in a mele situation.
A minor thing that it add is a dual function for one skill. Fire claws and hunger function slightly different for the different form. thus, one skills gets a second dimension.

Barbarians. You're saying they have a different approach to melee combat, that is, this other class is focussed on taking on foes in as small groups as possible, but then what is the Barbarian strategy?
Lets have a look at a few different stun skills.
The barbarian has war cry. It's a circle that stuns the monsters, thus it's best used when monsters are surrounding the barbarian as this will result in a higher number of monsters that are stunned.
Next, we have the druids Shock Wave skills. That skill has a direction, making it quite useless when surrounding. Only a small number of monsters will be stunned. that's not what you want.
The last skill is the assassins mind blast. It's designed to not be cast close to the assassin - it would have a mechanism similar to that of the druid or barbarian. It's designed to stun monsters that aren't close to the assassin and convert a percentage of them so monsters certainly won't close in. A surrounded assassin might still make good use of the skill, yet not to the full extend as once the stun is over, monsters will start attacking her (while at range, they would attack the converted monsters).

You see, different approach of very similar skills.


Or look at the multihit skills.
Whirlwind is best used when the monsters are close together. That way, there won't be a piece of the whirlwind radius circle that doesn't cover monsters and your damage output will be as large as possible.
Next, we have the paladin with zeal. This skill only hits 5 monsters tops. So when surrounded with 6 monsters, it's not good as one monster will not be hit. On top of that, zeal can focus all attack on a single target while whirlwind can't.
The we have the druids fury. Similar to the paladin yet with one very nasty downside. It is highly interruptible. So when surrounded, you risk not being able to attack at all.
Then the skills that only hit two monsters tops (and lets take jab with it). These are certainly not aimed at multiple monsters as only one or two will be hit at one time.
However, lets look at the barbarians approach. Frenzy offers huge frw increase. The problem is that it offers to much frw making it (for me) impossible to control the character. So when you don't use this skill in a huge pack, you will often run lost (something that clearly isn't good).

The only skill that doesn't fit is the amazons fend. It greatly benefits from being surrounded while the character clearly isn't made for it.
Yet 5 out of 6 isn't bad.



 

HappyAssassin

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

(OK, now don't discount everything I say here, but just a secret: I never played an Assassin with traps. I'm actually assuming that traps and martial arts were rarely integrated effectively. Do correct me if I'm wrong.)
Yeah, you're wrong, virtually every melee assassin used Death Sentry if they knew what they were doing. The elemental martial arts just sucked for killing speed, but physical martial arts was fun and unique build (whether a pure kicker or a Dtail/TS). Kick one monster down, corpse explosion does the rest. Those characters are a good example of a more complex type of melee character (they were too fragile to tank, you needed the MB/CoS combo and some strategy. Also, Dflight was really cool). Oh just for the record, there were no Chaos based PvM assassins because the claws were indecently expensive to repair and they lost dura quickly. Also, WWsins work by venom and open wounds, which are cool in PvP but not very fast killers in PvM. There's a old "crushing blow" version of the PvM WWsin, but, it sucks.

But, your also right in that the most popular assassin build was basically a caster using lightning sentry, death sentry and fire blast in PvM. It was basically idiot-proof. If you wanted the "best" or "fastest" assassin, you used traps and casting gear.

Now that I think about it, one of the interesting traits of the D2 classes was that half the classes were VERY versatile in terms of caster/melee. The Paladin, Druid and Assassin could be either very effective casters or very effective melee. The Amazon had a choice between strong melee and strong ranged. The ones that weren't were the Barb, Sorceress and Necro (their "versatile" versions, like the singer or dream sorceress, were niche at best). And those 3 are the ones we've seen repeated in D3 so far. Hmm...
 

LaZeR

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

Necro can be either Summoner/Caster, Altought it's difficult to call even a dude with 80 points in Summoning a Summoner if most of his kills are by CE.

Now, Barb- You're right. He can be just melee. But A) That's part of this char, and why many people like it and B) He can be huge-1-hit-damage melee or fast-hitting-everything melee, so there is a diversity.

Wizard- We can easily see that Blizzard is improving the melee espect of D3 Wizard, so let's hope this would be more doable than Dream Sorcs :)

WD- It's hard to say that this guy has not caster/melee diversity when we know only like 10 of his skills.
 

NASE

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

Now, Barb- You're right. He can be just melee. But A) That's part of this char, and why many people like it and B) He can be huge-1-hit-damage melee or fast-hitting-everything melee, so there is a diversity.
There are still different aspects that may have been part of the barbarian.
The DII barbarian has dual throw as a skill. I've just looked over the skills again and I don't find any ranged skill in his arsenal. And a well placed range skill isn't a problem for the barbarian.
I'm not talking about something like strafe or freezing arrow, yet throwing giant axes certainly is barbaric and I wouldn't even say no against a few well chosen crossbow skills. It would greatly increase the versatility of the character (certainly for pvp) without damage the idea of the character.

Same can be said about the war cry tree. I could find a few war cries yet thing like find item or that totem thing aren't found. Again, a few well chosen skills covering this aspect would not damage the character while adding more versatility.



 

trashX

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

i'd like to see a shapeshifting class. however not one that shifts, then uses skills in that form. make the skill be the shift. for example:
3 trees:
head:
various skills that increase crit, mana, life and so on depending on which head you currently have morphed(eagle, bear...)

legs: speed, damage, resist skills again depending on what form you currently have

body:damage, attack forms and so on(bear= high dmg slow melee attack, demon=mid dmg ranged fire attack and so on)

By making the shape shifter like this you could have some very diverse creatures in the game, not like in d2 where all wolfs look the same. You could have an eagle head, demon body, snake leg(tail) type thingy which has great range, fire dmg, and chance to dodge, and a few second later you could be the boar head bear arm goat legged creature which fends off melee attackers
 

Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

By making the shape shifter like this you could have some very diverse creatures in the game, not like in d2 where all wolfs look the same. You could have an eagle head, demon body, snake leg(tail) type thingy which has great range, fire dmg, and chance to dodge, and a few second later you could be the boar head bear arm goat legged creature which fends off melee attackers
That sounds more like a Chimera class .. hmmm .. might not be a bad idea but i think some combinations will look down right bizarre or weird (i.e out of place) ... and i think it will be hard to balance


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For me the best way to do a shapeshifting class is to give the class three forms (each has a tree of its own) ... so players can either specialize in one form or two ... or even spread their point between all three forms for versatility.

The catch here (and what makes it different from normal characters) is taht whenever you are in one form you can't use the skills from the other forms .. and this limitations gives the character a strategic depth .. there could even be some skills that make shifiting from one form to another easier.

As for looks of different form being the same (i.e all werewolves looking the same)

There are two ways to do it.

First:
Let's say the 1st from is a sort of a energy based creature .. let's name it "Avatar" or something, by default this form has a blue tint .. but when certain skills in the Avatar tree are upgraded beyond lv.2 the tint color changes depending on the skills or the avatar even gets a two color tint (with the colors are all kept in the green/blue/purple range).

Second:
Give the form the ability to wear armor and use gear ... it could work with some forms or transformations .. even a werewolf can carry a sword or wear gear ... the difference from the normal form is that physical strength, vitality and speed increase and a whole tree of skills become available for that form.


The only problem with this concept is that the original form becomes obsolete or has no skills ... again that could be solved by making a couple of skills from each form tree available to the player in the normal form but make them cost more mana to use or get cast slower.


 

trashX

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

bizarre? in diablo? come on, you telling me little ratmen with spears that stand on top of each other and blow fire at you isnt bizarre? :p

just kidding btw

but this bizarre is kinda what i was going for.
however the changes dont have to be too extreme.
not like a huge bear body and a tiny eagle head, that would look stupid. more something like a an enlogated face+beak with feathers going back off his head
and a more muscular and hairy body with claws

just taking certain aspects of the animal rather than changing into it

il try to get a pic up later
 
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Knight_Wolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

bizarre? in diablo? come on, you telling me little ratmen with spears that stand on top of each other and blow fire at you isnt bizarre? :p
Ratmen are ok .. but if they suddenly grow duck heads and giraffe legs i'm going to begin worrying about my sanity :crazyeyes: /jk



just taking certain aspects of the animal rather than changing into it
That's more reasonable indeed, i get what you mean.


 

LaZeR

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Ideas for 4th and 5th classes

There are still different aspects that may have been part of the barbarian.
The DII barbarian has dual throw as a skill. I've just looked over the skills again and I don't find any ranged skill in his arsenal. And a well placed range skill isn't a problem for the barbarian.
I'm not talking about something like strafe or freezing arrow, yet throwing giant axes certainly is barbaric and I wouldn't even say no against a few well chosen crossbow skills. It would greatly increase the versatility of the character (certainly for pvp) without damage the idea of the character.

Same can be said about the war cry tree. I could find a few war cries yet thing like find item or that totem thing aren't found. Again, a few well chosen skills covering this aspect would not damage the character while adding more versatility.

The problem with Range skills is that they conflict the whole Fury system Blizzard is trying to achieve.
I you could stay back and shoot from a distance, you wouldn't need to rush into the hit of the fight from battle to battle, hoping your Fury will last.
War Cries can be good, since they more closed ranged (D2-wise)

And about our ShapeShifter:
I like trashX idea. It just opens alot of diversity, and that's good.
And I agree with Knight_Wolf. Making SS chars look different from each other is easy and simple and if they do make a SS char- K_W ideas are the way to go.
The problem however, remains that there are not Shapes (in plural) to Shift other than the Druid's forest animals. And we know the Druid is out.


 
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