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Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

Discussion in 'Monk' started by peasant, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. peasant

    peasant IncGamers Member

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    Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    At Blizzcon, Blizzard stated that they hoped to create unique resources to power each class' abilities. So, I was wondering what would suit the Monk. And then it hit me... why not use the concept of Yin and Yang?

    [​IMG]

    Essentially, the Monk's resource revolves around the concept of balance. His abilities either generate Yin or Yang. The orb could even use the classic Yin and Yang symbol (or a Blizzard-designed one). As more Yin-generating (Yang-depleting) abilities are used, more of the black leaks into the white area. Once completely black, the Monk is unable to generate anymore Yin and so must use more Yang-generating abilities in order to restore balance.

    When out of combat, the orb slowly returns towards neutral. 'Mana orb' drops quicken the speed. In addition, there could be passive abilities in the tech tree to shift the neutral point towards Yin (so you can use more Yang-generating abilities) or Yang; allowing the Monk access to powerful combos from the very start of a fight.

    The benefits of such a system includes:

    1. Suits the Monk's philosophy lore-wise.
    2. The Monk would always be able to use special abilities; thus compensating for his limited range of weapons/items. The restraint would be on what combos you can use.
    3. Beginners would need to spam 2 abilities (one Yang-generating and one Yin-generating) instead of just one as the game progresses. This would then promote the concept of mixing up the Monk's combos.

    Any comments?


    P.S.: For those who didn't quite understand this idea, it essentially means that the Monk's energy meter would be from -100 to +100 with him starting at 0. Certain abilities have a positive cost while others a negative one.
     
  2. Leugi

    Leugi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Actually, it's an interesting idea. It'd be fun to play someone with such a system.. but it probably wouldn't work well with combos, at least not with some, it would reduce the combo possibilities
     
  3. Telzen

    Telzen IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Two problems with this:
    1. Limits builds. Kind of like saying you can't make a pure storm wizard and you have to use skills from other trees just because.
    2. Now the Monk has an unlimited resource. Yeah you have to switch between yin and yang skills but you can never run out.
     
  4. peasant

    peasant IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    I don't think the Yin/Yang-generating abilities should be restricted to separate trees but rather distributed amongst all three trees.

    I actually think this is a good thing. As seen at Blizzcon, Blizzard seems to want this to happen (at least with the Barbarian). Moreover, the Monk's lack of weapon choice would impair his ability to use normal attacks. Plus, constantly dishing out devastating special attacks is very reminiscent of the fighting games the Monk is based on.


    It would mainly limit combo possibilities at higher levels (i.e. cost-heavy abilities) and when at near maximum Yin or Yang. The former is appropriate for the higher player skill level at that point in time as well as from a balance perspective. As for the latter, this is no different than with any finite resource system (not being able to use certain or all abilities because you've exhausted your energy). Moreover, this promotes players to explore other combos of varying complexities (depending on skill) in order to maintain sustainable energy. In other words, I think this actually favors the use of multiple combos (as opposed to spamming just one ability).


     
  5. sunkenfaith

    sunkenfaith IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    nice idea. It would fit the profile a monk.
     
  6. RWHEEZY

    RWHEEZY IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    cool idea but what skills would you designate as yin vs yang. I mean literally, yin represents all that is good while yang represents all that is bad. so are you saying that the monk needs some restorative/defensive "yin" vs pure attack "yang"?

    like other poster stated, the requirement to alternate between different skills can put a quick cap on what the monk can feasibly do at a given time with his skills. sounds cool, lore-wise.
     
  7. peasant

    peasant IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Not to nitpick but yang is actually the light where as yin is the dark. Also, 'yin and yang' represents opposites of all forms; including female/male, winter/summer and of course evil/good. Regarding how the skills are distributed, it can (and would even make sense) if they were arbitrarily distributed evenly between the trees. That said, linking them to lore and aesthetics would work even better.

    As for the comment on how it limits combo options, I disagree. If a person constantly spams the same Yang-generating ability to the point it maxes out, it's no surprise when there comes the time where he would no longer be able to use said ability as well as other Yang-generating abilities (and can only cast Yin-generating abilities). The same goes to a Wizard who constantly spams Disintegrate to the point she reaches zero mana. She can't cast any abilities whatsoever. The difference between them is that unlike the Wizard, the Monk can cast Yin-generating abilities (or one big one) to allow himself to regain his ability to cast Yang-generating abilities. So when you think about it, it actually widens combo options.


     
  8. Lyrs

    Lyrs IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    This is a pretty unique and logical resource for the Monk. Not only does it reference the culture, but it forces the player to think and act according to the balance principle, which is a great way to change pace between different characters.

    Also, as pointed out by peasant, Yang and Yin are not specifically based on good and evil, but rather the idea that opposites are not exclusive of each other and that these opposite forces compliment and work with one and another.
     
  9. Fackelare

    Fackelare IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Does it really?

    Think about it for a second. Nothing in the existing lore (i.e. the small passage from Abd all-Hazir) points to the monk and balance. It depicts someone looking for battle, people fear him so much that they dare not sit with him in a bar. When in a fight he shows no restraint and utterly destroys his opponents (burnt flesh, cracking of bones). He is also clearly enjoying the battle 'the monk was laughing as he fought' and '...rabbed the demon by the neck, grinning as he pulled his free arm back...'. Also 'he went on to describe his intense mental and physical training, his unending quest to hone his mind and body into an instrument of divine justice', he has but one purpose in life, one thing he strives for and that is to tip the balance into the favour of 'devine justice' not to create balance.
    Plus, how do you fit a thousand and one gods into a yin-yang system?

    Yes, the system would fit with ordinary, unoriginal monks. But will it fit into Diablo?

    edit: yin-yang could be described as good-evil or light-dark (would be the most logical in this context?), but they do not wish to balance these, mearly to rid the world of the dark/evil.


     
  10. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    If you read the whole story yes it does.

    Yin and Yang as said before is not about balance and more about opposites.

    Someone that sits at a table and does nothing till attacked doesn't seem much like a person "looking for battle.” Nowhere in the story was the word fear written. "I noted a certain tension in the room" - Abd al-hazir. The only group in the tavern besides the monk where the demons.

    The "people" that attacked him were all demons. This would also lead to how Yin and Yang fit him, because it highlights the opposites in the monks character. He is calm and friendly to Hazir one second and the next second he is breaking demon necks.

    Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it China that came up with the Yin and Yang theory? And is it not China that had/has 154 (or something like that) gods? So if both of these theories came from the same place they must not contradict themselves.

    All of the cultures in the Diablo world are spin offs of cultures in our world, so I don't know why you think the diablo world should have some wieldy different story and culture for their monk.


    So to summarize, a Yin and Yang system fits very well for a monk. It would highlight his already mentioned opposite behavior. How he could be a servant of light but in his actions seem just as vicious as the demons he kills. Looking at the whole story and you will see how a yin and yang style resource fits not only his personality but his skill set, of combo and non combo moves.
    I also just want to say, we may not know many of his skills but one can guess that they won't put all the combo moves in one tree. One wouldn’t have to take skills in every tree just to use the character. I am also sure that Blizzard wouldn’t want someone to just take combo skills.


     
  11. Fackelare

    Fackelare IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Opposites that are in balance, while the monk does not strive for balance.
    "Yin and yang are thought to arise together from an initial quiescence or emptiness (wuji, sometimes symbolized by an empty circle), and to continue moving in tandem until quiescence is reached again."
    The quienscence is balance, a state of ultimate balance.


    "Ah, a soul brave enough to sit with me. Come, friend." -> the rest were not brave enough, i.e. afraid, i.e. fear. You need to read carefully and deduce the meaning of the entire scene, not look for specific words.

    "You don't fool me, demon," -> does not imply that all men were demons, only one (or at least one, if he already killed the rest). The most logical thing to assume is that only one was a demon and the rest were men.

    Not killing old travelling wise-men isn't something that says yin-yang to me..?

    Yin-yang is the balance that always is, good cannot exist without evil, light not without dark. This concept would work in parallel to gods. The monk does not fight to create balance, but to eradicate the dark/evil. I logically assumed that he does not believe his quest to be in vain, since evil cannot die. So the yin-yang has to portray some other balance, for instance the gods, but it wouldn't fit. Perhaps something else, but I haven't really put much thought into that...

    But it is a spin-off, why base it so directly of the real world, where other methods of energy will fit the monk better? Yin-yang just seems like a very cheap option to me...

    You assume that being vicious is 'dark' and not befitting the light. And as for the personality, I'm not the least convinced...


     
  12. peasant

    peasant IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    And who's to say where that balance lies? For instance, it could be philosophized that the presence of demons in Sanctuary is a sign that things are out of balance since demons belong in Hell.

    Well, if you look at Blizzard's inspiration for the Monk, they are derived from polar opposites; polytheistic, 'Asian-style' monks and monotheistic, Christian monks. Moreover, their design and lore were specifically described in terms of their contradictions; that he is a 'killing machine' yet still a holy man and his skills are derived from both, physical martial arts and religious mysticism. In that sense, the Monk is very much about balancing two opposites.


     
  13. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Demons shouldn't be in Sacturary, so by kill them (all of them) is how the monk is returning the balance of the world.
    The balance is not only what monk he is striving for but, the balance is in him as well with his combo moves and non combo moves.

    You say to me to read carefully and deduce the meaning and yet you are the one that overlooks that they directly reveal that they were demons. What more did you need him to do, start the fight by showing they were all demons?

    I couldn't disagree more. The most logical thing is to assume they are all demons.

    I was pointing out how the two sides of his personality is planly shown. Wouldn't you agree, to be violet to one and friendly to another shows an opposite. (aka yin and yang) If he wasn't friendly to Hazir I would agree with you that, by not killing Hazir it wouldn't prove anything to inforce his yin yang character.

    I didn't assume anything. I know what the word vicious means and I used it the way it is meant. Meaning you wouldn't expect a servant of light to be so gruesomely violent (aka vicious) in combat.

    Let me just say, I wouldn't want to see a Yin and Yang symbol as a resource, it would be tacky. I wouldn't mind seeing a system that works in opposites.

    I would like to see a system similar to this where there is a globe split in half and when you use combo moves one side of the globe fills. When you use non combat moves the other half fills. The more you use combo moves the more effective your non combo moves become. and vice-versa.


     
  14. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Technically, evil can die. If / when that happens however, it would be up to the necromancers to ensure evil survives.

    The Monks do not focus on that kind of balance, but would instead turn to an internal balance, if any at all.



    This would only be true if he also kills all angels. ;)

    Even I assume the one left was a leader, and the only demon since only he was called a demon.


    Zealous paladins with fanaticism...;)
     
  15. theeliminator

    theeliminator Well-Known Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    There is only one Angel that has ever showed himself on Sacturary, (not including the one that made the world) and he leaves after the prime evils are defeated. So no need to kill what leaves on its own free will.


    I know your kind of joking but,Fanaticism does not mean one is a vicious fighter just means he is extremely devoted to a set of ideals.


     
  16. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    The worldstone also gave him the boot out of Sanctuary >>


    Yes, I was joking a bit, however, it was an example of how even a holy person dedicated to Light and all can be ... formidable, if need be.

    Similarly, the Monk would be calm, but when the situation calls for it, he's prepared to defend himself.

    The only real gruesome skill of the Monk is probably the exploding palm, but being a holy person doesn't stop you from getting your hands dirty (especially for a monk). And, it's evil he's fighting. If he did it to innocents, big red flag there. Demons? It's actually a necessity to get that violent, or else they get all violent. ;)
     
  17. Atech

    Atech IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    I really like the Chorkstains White mana idea if it is softened a bit.

    Reverse Barbarian rage
    Regenerates very fast naturally, but the regen speed slows down if you are being hit.

    But this does not sound too bad either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  18. LaZeR

    LaZeR IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    This sounds like a very good mechanic, but I can't stop thinking it will resolve a lot of problems I can't see right now.

    One of them I can however:
    A new player with his first Skill Point will be forced to choose a Ying or Yang attack. Which means he'll probably be screwed until he hits the next lvl.
     
  19. konfeta

    konfeta IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    Cutting something something 5-6 times per second with a sword sounds vicious to me.
     
  20. Chorkstain

    Chorkstain IncGamers Member

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    Re: Idea for the Monk's Second Resource

    I'm not sure about this idea. It will force the player to choose a balance of Yin and Yang abilities, hence making reducing the diversity among Monks compared with other classes. Also, I don't see how this system is catering to the Monk's playing style.

    It's not precisely the complexity of this system (it's not that complex) that I object to, it just seems that it would stop many interesting builds from ever being conceived.
     

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