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I thought this drop couldn't happen?

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by Fluffballer, May 19, 2005.

  1. Fluffballer

    Fluffballer IncGamers Member

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    I thought this drop couldn't happen?

    [​IMG]

    I know a monster has a chance to drop the same item twice, but I didn't realize two different monsters could drop the same item. The super unique bone mage dropped the first. Then literally 10 seconds later a unique lightning demon dropped the second. I guess it IS possible, but the odds must be one in a million.
     
  2. jrlafrance

    jrlafrance IncGamers Member

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    Two uniques can't drop in the same game, but multiple set items can. Lucky you! :D
     
  3. 380 Realm

    380 Realm IncGamers Member

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    That type of drop is indeed very rare. Last week or so, I found the Aldur set weapon in Act 5 nightmare (Arreat Plateau, I think) then 5-10 minutes later, another one drops in the same area.

    :D
     
  4. Fluffballer

    Fluffballer IncGamers Member

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    Good thing I used up my 1 in a million drop getting two Berserker hatchets within seconds of each other. Now I don't have to worry about getting that damned Tyreal's. :clap:
     
  5. cotton

    cotton IncGamers Member

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    Just a theory here, but it seems to me that the game's random generator that creates items sometimes gets "stuck." I don't have specific numbers, but it isn't that unusual to have a couple of fairly unusual base items drop back to back, such as thundermaul + thundermaul falling in the pit. It happens often enough that I think the engine that chooses items "randomly" sometimes repeats the last roll.

    In this case, it hit double axe twice, and your mf roll turned them both green. Again, just a theory.
     
  6. LorveN

    LorveN D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    wrong, I've gotten two unique large shields in the same mephisto drop. i also have friends experienced the same...
     
  7. FreezerBurn

    FreezerBurn Banned

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    i've had meph drop the same set item twice in one drop. don't remember exactly what it was, but it was crap
     
  8. slappy sam

    slappy sam IncGamers Member

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    @ Both people above me: This person is talking about one set item from one monster then getting ANOTHER EXACTLY THE SAME set item from ANOTHER monster. That is possible, but not possible with uniques. However you can get multiple uniques dropped from the same monster, but once a unique is dropped in a game it is NOT dropping again. Sets can though.
     
  9. FodderCannoned

    FodderCannoned IncGamers Member

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    I have also gotten 2 talrashas helm in the same baal drop........ to bad it wasn;t armor or amulet
     
  10. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    That's a 1.09 bug as far as I know. Had 2 pairs of unique chain boots from baal at some time in 1.09. However, hell meph tried to drop me THREE unique burnt wands in 1.10 (what's the odds of THAT??) but only one became the "suicide branch", the two others became triple durability ones.
     
  11. kanuks

    kanuks IncGamers Member

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    I have a ss of baal dropping me 2x set item spired helm at the same time...
     
  12. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    People like to toss out the "randomgenerator get stuck" whenever they see something they feel is odd. So how do you propose the random number generator gets "stuck"? it really can't stuck in any such way at all (By the way, an item recalls a whole bunch of random numbers so getting stuck would hardly help). In this case, it was even for two different monsters, meaning the starting paramteres were probably different meaning if there was something that got stuck, it would actually generate DIFFERENT items, not identical.

    As for seeing the same item, that is not strange at all but rather something that happens with randomly generated stuff. it is supposed to be like that. IF it did not occur, THEN you should get worried about a bad random number generator. The thing is that there are so many, many possible sequences of items to be created, that the chance that two items after each other (or with just a few inbetween) to never (or hardly ever) be the same is very small. Sure, for each specific item, the chance is small, but then multiply it by all the possible "odd" combinations and it the chance turns out to be quite high for odd drops. Add to it that you see a LOT of items drop in a few weeks play. Finally, the human being is a specialist in trying to find pattern and order in chaos or randomness. So you tend to note it a lot more than all those many, many more times when it doesn't apear to be strange drops.
     
  13. SeDnA

    SeDnA IncGamers Member

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    Mephy dropped 3 green breast plates for me a few days ago...
     
  14. cotton

    cotton IncGamers Member

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    As far as I know, there is no such thing as a perfect random number generator. All I'm suggesting is that the rng in DII does not always give perfectly random results. And when you events that are astronomically unlikely occur--such as back to back drops of an uncommon item--multiple times over the course of a small sample, you begin to question the "perfect" randomness involved. I don't know why it drops back-to-back sometimes, but from my experience, I am far more likely to find 2 thundermauls (an example, the same is true for other uncommon items) in one run that I am to find one in each of 2 runs, and this happens on consecutive drops more often than is statistically likely. My guess is simply that for some reason the game repeats a roll.
     
  15. Ax2Grind

    Ax2Grind IncGamers Member

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    Hmmm...

    Do I remember reading somewhere that when a more common 'original' roll is received from a monster capable of dropping exceptional and/or elite (more so if elite) then the odds of the item being unique, then set, then rare, etc go up? In other words, it's more likely to get a set roll on a breast plate than it is on a cuirass if the monster can drop both, or did I imagine all of that?
     
  16. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    You guys are imagining things... What Jarulf said was (basically) "if you never got the same item twice in a row, best bet is it ISN'T random. Imagine a deck of 1,000,000,000 cards. All different. Now, you have two decks of these cards, and you keep drawing one card from each deck, and afterwards, you put the card back in the same deck, shuffle, and repeat. This is (in a way) what happens when running a superunique. There is a slight chance of drawing the same card from both decks, however, it is 1:1,000,000,000. Now, if it NEVER happened, you'd suspect the draws were not random, see?
     
  17. RTB

    RTB IncGamers Member

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    Lower Qlvl items dropped by high Mlvl monsters do have a bigger chance for a higher rarity. The base chance for unique/set/etc is reduced by (Ilvl - Qlvl), but this is divided by 3 for class-specific uniques, for example.
     
  18. TheJarulf

    TheJarulf Banned

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    The point is, you don't need one, you just need one that is good enough and there are many excellent random number generators out there and the one used in D2 is definately good enough for its purpose.



    You missed the point, you focus on ONE specific case with small chance and claim you saw THAT specific case multiple times. That is wrong. What you saw was one, of MANY possible, small chance happening. The chance for that is not small. Basically, take the small chance of a strange drop, multiply it by the total number of strange drops you can think of (there are many, I can assure you), the result is actually a very high probability (well, at least not extremely small. Next, realise that even in the "small sample time", there is many drops. You can't just multiply the number of drops here, but it will increase the chances a LOT. Basically, the chances to see such things is not at all as small as people think.




    You do realise that an item is not just "a roll"? Apart from various starting parameters that differes (like the level of monsters) which makes even the exact same sequence of random numbers to occur will generate completely different items, a single item is actually a very large ammount of different random rolls, and the source of those random numbers is actually two (in most cases) different streams of random numbers, who thus both need to be reset and put back to were it was. And if it is not in two items right after each other, the game has to somehow remember all old seeds to be able to reset to a specific one used. Recall that only a select few are used to "start" and item, most are used in the middle of an item. On top of that, the same random seed sequence is used for a lot of other things, like when new monsters pop up as you move arround in the world. With that in mind, are you saying that the game through out the cause of playing a single game, keep track of old seeds, and later, in a different place, make sure that if levels, TC (main one) and all such are similar, it resets to the same old seed?
     
  19. pncwd

    pncwd IncGamers Member

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    I know that someone said in this post that two of the same uniques will not drop in the same game.
    Well I had meph drop me two nagles in the same drop in NM lvl. And I also found 2 noko ammys in the same game, I think one was andy and the other one was either pindle or eldritch., (not sure there but I know that I got 2 in the same game.
    The only difference is they were in a single player games and not on bnet. As far as sets go, I have seen double some times triple item drops of the same item from the same monster.
     
  20. Myrakh-2

    Myrakh-2 IncGamers Member

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    Did the drop take longer than usual? I mean, imagine mephisto desperately searching through his item collection, looking for that stupid suicide branch he decided to give you... but he just can't find it, because being almost dead he forgot that he just gave it to you... so he decides to give you a great triple durability rare (as if anyone cares...), but then realizes that maybe you'd much rather have a suicide branch, so he goes looking for it...
     

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