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I think women's rights to privacy just died on the operating table o

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Anakha1, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    I think women's rights to privacy just died on the operating table

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/20/****.victims.records.ap/index.html

    So whom then does a **** victim talk to without fear of her words and feelings getting spread out all over the public awareness? This is so typical of revictimization.
     
  2. Yaboosh

    Yaboosh IncGamers Member

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    We live in a world focused almost totally on the criminal, be it prosecuting them or protecting their rights. Victims have always fallen to the wayside, and will continue to do so.
     
  3. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    I know, but I still find that tragic.
     
  4. Yaboosh

    Yaboosh IncGamers Member

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    Well, I imagine the same standing isnt given to a "**** counselor" or other victim facilitators as is given to Doctors, psychiatrists, lawyers, and other priviledged people. Should it be? Possibly, but the line does have to be drawn.
     
  5. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    I think it should be. After all, these victims are going to them to talk about deeply scarring emotional and physical damage. No one can talk openly when they're worried about whatever they say being dogged over in a court room by lawyers and dragged around in front of the person that perpetrated it in the first place. Since talking about it is a foremost method of healing for such an injury, this kind of thing seriously detracts from their ability to heal. That's unacceptable, IMO.
     
  6. Nastie_Bowie

    Nastie_Bowie Banned

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    This is why the majority of rapes go unreported.

    Sad, but, true.

    edit: The wordfilter doesn't recognise the plural.
     
  7. IDupedInMyPants

    IDupedInMyPants Banned

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    Well, first of all, this has nothing to do with women's rights. There are about a million other situations in which the right to privacy and the right to a fair trial conflict and not a single one is gender specific, including ****.

    I don't see what the problem is. One person going through a shrink's notes to determine if anything is relevant to the prosecution of a crime and then sharing only the relevant parts isn't that big of an invasion of privacy. Charging someone with **** involves a tacit consent to the fact that you were *****. Everyone in the court room is pretty much already aware of the most intimate and painful detail of the case.

    Bottom line is no crime can be prosecuted without evidence, and likewise no defense can be effective without evidence. I think these days most cases hinge on the testimony of hospital **** test procedures which are largely irrefutable. The vast majority of **** cases won't ever necessitate any psychiatrist's testimony.
     
  8. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    The problem is that these women are deserving of some bloody privacy after what they've gone through. Do you really think they'll be able to open up if they know whatever they say can be dragged through the mud in a court room? They need to be allowed to heal and talking about the incident without worry of her thoughts and feelings becoming public knowledge is crucial.
     
  9. MixedVariety

    MixedVariety Banned

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    I happen to feel the same way you do, but the problem is that trials aren't usually about feelings as much as facts.
    How many times was a purported *%$# actually consensual sex gone wrong? Or sex that never actually happened at all, but was an invention of a vengeful woman's mind? Often enough, I'll wager, to be questionable in a great deal of cases. And, if the defense has nothing with which to defend itself except what might be potentially ambiguous 'evidence' given under therapy or similarly confidential circumstances, and they are allowed access to it, why shouldn't they?
    It might enable an innocent man to go free. Or it might put an actual rapist back on the street.
    As usual, no easy answer.
     
  10. IDupedInMyPants

    IDupedInMyPants Banned

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    Trust me, you don't want to give everyone on earth the ability to say you ***** them and you get put away with no evidence and no possibility of defense.

    If she goes to a hospital and they break out the **** kit, you're screwed. There is no arguing against those results.

    If the foundation of the case against you is more shaky, you deserve to be able to defend yourself. If you really ***** her there will be no damning evidence against her testimony in whatever she says to her shrink and none of it will make it to court.

    And, again, this isn't anything that effects only women by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure why we're getting all feminist movement about it.
     
  11. Lostprophet

    Lostprophet IncGamers Member

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    This one hits kind of close to home for me, so forgive me if I offend anyone.

    A good friend of mine who was on our school's hockey team recently was transferred by his parents to a private school in the wake of a scandal wherein two girls separately accused him of raping them. Their stories did not start out as **** accusations, but turned into such as they realized that they hadn't really wanted to have sex with the guy in the first place. It was consensual at the time, but quickly turned to **** because the girls didn't want to deal with the consequences of their own actions. When the administration was told, nearly three months after one purported incident and nearly six after the other, they told the girls there was nothing that could be done, as there was no evidence. Unfortunately, annonymous phone calls and death threats were made to my friend and his parents, and they were essentially forced to transfer him to a military academy (especially considering his parents didn't believe him).

    Friends of the girls have admitted to me and various other people in private that the girls' stories changed from consensual to ****, and anyone who was paying any amount of attention knows this for him or herself. These selfish girls have essentially ruined my friend's life, for their own personal self-esteem and conscience.

    I find the vast majority of **** shield laws to be simply ridiculous. How can a defense attorney possibly expect to defend an accused rapist without seeing the evidence, especially with the stigma already surrounding the case? Reports I've been hearing about the questions the Kobe Bryant attorneys are not allowed to ask sicken me; stuff like questions about the victim's prior injuries and conditions, which seems pretty key to me.

    The bottom line is, in America, a **** accusation is as good as a conviction. And that sucks. And withholding vital evidence in the name of "victim's rights" is just ridiculous.
     
  12. Anakha1

    Anakha1 Banned

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    This is where innocent until proven guilty comes in. She has to prove that you ***** her, not the other way around. They can't convict you without evidence and they can't convict you on someone's word. She has to prove that it was forced and non-consensual. The onus is on her, not you.

    As for the no damning evidence, you'd be surprised how lawyers can twist someone's words around and drag her through the mud. They can be absolutely cruel in their interpretation and cross examination of the victim.

    It's getting all feminist movementy because **** victims are primarily female. About 97% are, in fact. And of those women who really were *****, the should have the right to speak to a counsellor confidentially and without fear of having her deepest feelings and thoughts spread out all over the public.

    It's my belief that the justice system should be equally about protecting the victims and his/her healing process as it is about protecting the accused. To do that the victim in this case needs privacy. Take away her ability to talk to people privately about the incident and she won't do it at all. It's hard enough to get a **** victim to recount the events because they're so painful. Believe me, I know from personal experience.
     
  13. Anyee

    Anyee IncGamers Member

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    Lost: Did you ever think, though, that "not wanting to have sex with the guy in the first place" and then having sex with him could actually be ****? A guy on a hockey team...must be pretty big, pretty imposing. How do you say no in a situation like that, to someone who could easily hurt you? You are going to believe your friend, but excuse me if I'm more skeptical.

    Here are some friendly stats, if you stick around to read them, from RAINN:
    Where is that guaranteed conviction you're talking about? I see only slightly more than a 50/50 chance, and that out of only 35% of all crimes. Looks like the rapists are doing pretty damn well at getting off scott free without any changes to the laws. What is this about all your experience with ****?

    And poor Kobe Bryant is on trial. Is he receiving death threats, like his accuser is? Nah. Is HIS previous sexual history being dragged out in court? Nope. Is his mental history, plus the fact that he's committed adultery, being factored in at all? Of course not! Poor Kobe Bryant is the victim; the woman he strangled and ***** deserved it because she was a lying tramp.

    The almighty ****ing **** kit is hardly foolproof. Consensual sex and **** can look very similar, since all vaginal intercourse involves some bruising and trauma to the vaginal area. Fluid transmission is also common in both, especially if the perp didn't use a condom. So, you have proof that the woman had sex, but not that she was *****.

    Then there's the believability issue. Unfortunately, most of you are of the opinion that if a woman was sexually promiscuous in the past, she couldn't have been ***** or that she, surprise surprise, deserved it! How many people "deserve" to get murdered? I'd say that anyone in the army or police "deserves" to get killed, since obviously they expose themselves to violence every day. :rolleyes:

    Bottom line: rapists are still winning. Victims need as much help as they can get. The continuing mentality that most women are false accusers (about 10%, actually...hardly most), that being mentally ill or promiscuous excuses a ****, and that basically women deserve it mean that there should be more shields in place, not less.
     
  14. Lostprophet

    Lostprophet IncGamers Member

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    First of all, sick of the stereotypes. Not a big guy. Actually shorter than the girls he supposedly ***** (and certainly weighed less than at least one of them).

    Also, the girls did not start out "'not wanting to have sex with the guy in the first place' and then having sex with him." Quite the other way around. They wanted to, but then after the fact decided they didn't want the baggage associated with it/whatever.

    Wasn't defending Kobe Bryant. In fact I think it's terrible the trauma that the girl has to go through because this is a celebrity case (the death threats, public eye, etc.) but that is not a ****-case issue.

    Your statistics do little to prove anything. If there's no conviction, how can you count that as a ****? For all you know, no **** took place, with is simply justice being served (you know, protection of the innocent and all that junk). I'd also love to know how this organization found out that 61% of rapes are unreported, considered they are unreported. Did they interview every woman in America and ask them if they'd been *****/if they'd reported it?

    Yes, because I was definitely saying that women who get ***** deserve it. Believe I used those exact words, actually. Not to mention the whole thing about promiscuity. I'd put promiscuity right up there with homosexuality on the sin list, since I'm such a bigot and all.

    Couldn't just be that I have a dissenting opinion now, could it?

    Bottom line: Being mentally ill or promiscuous does NOT excuse a ****. Nothing excuses a ****. Period. But on the same note nothing excuses withholding evidence from a trial that could potentially result in massive jail time, especially if there's a lot of circumstantial evidence.
     
  15. Anyee

    Anyee IncGamers Member

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    RAINN is a counseling network. Let's say they counsel 100,000 women in a year who say they have been *****. Of that number, 35,000 actually press charges. Pressing charges = reported. Going to counseling, but not doing anything about it = unreported. Tada.

    Considering, also, that as I said, the rate of false reports for women being ***** is only at about 10%, shouldn't there be a much higher incidence of convictions? Most rapes, contrary to popular belief, are done by someone in the family or a friend. Men randomly picked up on the street and charged are the vast minority of cases. Usually, those are the ones that aren't convicted: wrong guy, cleared by DNA. When the guy you're on a date with rapes you, you're damn sure it's him. So why isn't he convicted?

    The promiscuity was for Duped, not you, though it seemed that the target got left off in one of the edits.

    I'm still failing to see what the defense of a rapist hopes to get from a woman's therapy session, other than humiliation of the victim. The victim may feel guilty after the ****. Does that mean it wasn't ****? Most people feel some guilt after a tragic event, even if they had nothing to do with it. If you've already said that a woman's sexual history has nothing to do with her deserving a ****, how is it pertinant to perform a long and drawn out inquest into all her past lovers? Tell me, since you have so much experience with **** and **** counseling, what are you fishing for?
     
  16. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    Well, if the accused rapists mental and sexual history were pertinent to the case I would have no problem with allowing them to be discussed.

    I'm not paying any attention to the kobe case. i'm a little sick of hearing about it. i think he'll get off...but then i don't know many details...i just know that famous black people have an edge if they can get a black jury.

    but that tangent we'll just drop for now.

    the purpose of the court is not to make the victims feel better, but to seperate criminals from the non-criminals. They are searching for truth, and anything that is pertinent to the case should be allowed.

    I think judges should quash any attempt to portray victims as loose or easy. just for the sake of painting them that way...but if for whatever reason that had some bearing in the case it would be fine to bring that in. i can't think of a reason it would be important, so i would guess most of the time it would not be admissable.

    i also don't think this image of some guy looming over a girl being a reason that she would submit to him...If she's really afraid of her boyfriend then their relationshipo would have other signs and that would come out.

    I think it's very common for young girls to wish they could have that first time back...or wish they hadn't done that thrid boy. there's this expectation that people's first time is going to be great owonderful and all that...and that a girl should have three or less guys in her life...or only one guy in her life or whatever number her group of friends thinks is best, and once she hits that she's done...now she's a slut. I think you see a lot of regret over what they did the night before or earlier that evening. and it's a shame when they decide to call it ****. that's more common han the situation where some big looming guy makes her feel like he's going to hurt her if she doesn't.

    Daterape is such a messy thing. Young men should be scared to death of some chic changing her mind...I've seen it happen..its a mess. it ruins a man's reputation, and that should be just as illegal as ****.

    My issue with these cases is they detract from the real horror of true ****. **** is a terrible crime and all this mess does is belittle it.
     
  17. Anyee

    Anyee IncGamers Member

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    Pathological liar? Okay. Hisotry of suicide attempts...how the heck is that relevant?

    So it is and it isn't okay? Huh? Come on, pick a side. I can't think of a reason right now.

    You ever been in fear, Steve? Ever been in an abusive relationship? Go talk to a few girls who have. They can tell you that they would have to submit to sex that they didn't want, aka ****, to avoid beatings, to avoid their children getting beaten, and so on. Or maybe it's control in more subtle ways: he takes her car keys, he takes her salary, he keeps track of her day and night. That's hard to get away from. The notion of a battered woman staying there because she likes it is hopelessly simplified.

    But fear is a big part. If you're faced with someone physically larger than you who could hurt you with ease, wouldn't you just go along with something that would in theory hurt less than having your ribs broken? Just a thought.

    Really? Give me stats. How many **** cases are really women just wishing they hadn't done it. As I keep saying, only ten ****ing percent of cases turn out to be a woman lying. So, show me all these common cases you're talking about.

    I've seen actual **** happen. I'd beg to differ.

    This mess? Tell me: how is some man beating up his wife then raping her different from some guy attacking her and raping her? How is a boy pinning down his girlfriend and shoving his cock down her throat different than a random guy doing it? How is lying there and having someone slam into you as you kick and push and demand that the person stop, but they don't stop, not ****? How is it less "real" or "true?"
     
  18. Lostprophet

    Lostprophet IncGamers Member

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    Awesome reply Steve. Agreed on all counts. Especially the last line.
     
  19. Sergeant

    Sergeant IncGamers Member

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    Ok, here's my thoughts. If a woman is *****, someone better damn well be going to prison for it, for a very long time. Perhaps share a cell with a very large, very aggressive inmate.

    If a woman is *****, goes and sees a **** counselor and then presses charges, she better expect that the tiniest details of the whole event will be brought out. If she wants to bring her rapist down, she has every right to and, because of our justice system, he has every right to defend himself.

    If there are details in the **** counselors notes or session recordings, the defense ought to have access to it. Justice is just that, justice. It's about punishing crime and making wrongs right, so far as it's possible. I mean, if a woman goes to a **** counselor and the session reveals it wasn't ****, why shouldn't the defense have access to that?

    Anyee, you said only 10% of reported rapes are made up. Can you cite some information on that? I mean, I'm sure you nailed the stat right but I'm curious as to how they come up with that number.

    Don't get me wrong, **** is about as vile a crime and violation as it gets and I'm all for very harsh punishments for the rapist and protection and justice for the victim. However, in that pursuit, we can't just toss all avenues of defense away from the accused because it might hurt the accusers feelings.

    I think if she wants to prosecute her rapist, she gets access to all the info, testimony and evidence her case needs. The accused should have the same made available to him. If she wants justice, she will have to give up a little personal privacy since the nature of the crime is a very personal violation. I don't see how prosecuting a **** can't be privacy invading, given the nature of the crime.
     
  20. Anyee

    Anyee IncGamers Member

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    Sarge, according to the FBI, only 2% of all **** cases are falsified. Some other crime organizations say 2-5%. I put it at 10% because I've heard that number as well, and it seems more accurate. I'm guessing the investigators know because under questioning, the women admitted they were lying. Records need to be kept because of these kinds of things.

    My problem is this: you have the **** kit, you have the testimony of the woman. Bring in things such as previous false accusations, history of pathological lying, things that could affect actual credibility. But how does a victim's history of past, unreported sexual assault help the defendent, other than to use the excuse that the woman must have been unconsciously seeking out some sort of sex...

    Things said in a **** counseling session include a LOT of the woman's trying to deal with the trauma and saying a lot of emotional things (it's all my fault, I want to kill him, I want to die) that will help her get through the trauma. Things said in privacy, I might add, with no real basis (you can tell usually in person when someone is just venting and when someone means an actual threat) in reality. But a defense attorney would seize upon a woman's blaming herself and say "AHA! She is making this up! It IS her fault."

    Sarge, I blamed myself for that guy getting stabbed and I still do. That's ont rational, but it is human nature. Could you see how knowing that everything you say in confidence will be held against you would decrease the successful prosecution of cases? Again, I keep asking, but I don't get an answer: what is it you're fishing for in her confidential discussion?
     

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