i hope the fix the bosses

[Visage]

i hope the fix the bosses

yes, if you read the lore especially the book series sin war.. which is based off the lore. the bosses in d2 seemed like they could never be defeated, by no mortal man etc.. etc.. but yet in d2 we can kill meph 30 times in 30 minutes. i mean its such a drag and so boring

i hope in d3. even with the strongest character we can die in 1 hit by the bosses just because of one mistake. like getting ur head bitten off

ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL

id rather the bosses be overpowered then underpowered

/end rant

 

[konfeta]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

Well, there is also the idea that your are playing as an epic hero who is suppose to be capable of challenging these great evils and smacking them down with his/her own might.

What bosses need to be is have unique mechanics to make them more than glorified monsters with new spells, ton of damage, and HP. Diablo is suppose to be the Lord of Terror... yet all he does is run around like a puppy spamming nuke spells. Where is the terror? Where are all the mind tricks he could be playing?

Just imagine how much scarier would Diablo be if he occasionally blotted out the lights for a few seconds of total darkness, or could spawn large horde of illusions of Oblivion Knights with a few real, beefed up knights among them.

 

[Visage]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

your are playing an epic hero yes.. but not so epic that you can kill the boss in 3-4 hits

if i wanted to fight little bunnys and dragons or whatever id go play runescape

 

[Airazor]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

I'd like to see the bosses have some decent tactics that make them harder to fight, not just some gimmick move that freezes you or gives them more HP.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

yes, if you read the lore especially the book series sin war.. which is based off the lore. the bosses in d2 seemed like they could never be defeated, by no mortal man etc.. etc.. but yet in d2 we can kill meph 30 times in 30 minutes. i mean its such a drag and so boring

i hope in d3. even with the strongest character we can die in 1 hit by the bosses just because of one mistake. like getting ur head bitten off

ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL

id rather the bosses be overpowered then underpowered

/end rant

We agree that monsters in D2 are very boring and predictable ... but i completely disagree that the way to make them more powerful is to give them one hit kill skills ... just no ... that's the worst way to make them stronger.

I think Konfeta got it right

Just imagine how much scarier would Diablo be if he occasionally blotted out the lights for a few seconds of total darkness, or could spawn large horde of illusions of Oblivion Knights with a few real, beefed up knights among them.

Now that's how it should be ... in this darkness you would be limited to your on personal glow and would be surrounded by a dozen oblivion knights with some of them being decoys/images .... now that's a very tense and hard situation .... now that's 100X better than giving a boss a one-hit-kill

I'd like to see the bosses have some decent tactics that make them harder to fight, not just some gimmick move that freezes you or gives them more HP.

Agree .. bosses in many modern action games have very impressive battles and are completely different from normal monsters not just glorified versions of them with extra HP and damage .... D2 was way outdated when it came to its boss designs .. very outdated.

 

[PReP]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

What bosses need to be is have unique mechanics to make them more than glorified monsters with new spells, ton of damage, and HP. .

Have you watched any of the game content from the e3-demo and gameplay-videos?

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

Have you watched any of the game content from the e3-demo and gameplay-videos?

I guess he did, but i can tell it was meant in general for what we haven't seen yet ... the rest of the bosses in the game.

But i wouldn't worry .. the D3 dev team is thankfully open minded and are drawing inspiration from various sources and action games ... and they are bent on making the boss battle in D3 on a whole new level and epic.

 

[NASE]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

That head bite from the video wasn't a one hit kill IIRC. It was just a random dead animation.
However, I do agree that a well placed one hit kill can be interesting (for instance, when making a huge mistake). The main question is how to implement it so that it works and enhanced the game. Cause diablo II didn't really get this correct.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

However, I do agree that a well placed one hit kill can be interesting (for instance, when making a huge mistake). The main question is how to implement it so that it works and enhanced the game. Cause diablo II didn't really get this correct.

Hmmm .. one hit kills can only work if there is a warning or some animation indicating they will happen few seconds before the actual attack so people can react .. and if you screw up you die ... but what people are talking about is surprise-one-hit-kill-attacks .. which is a big NO NO.

Besides those special attacks don't have to be an instant-kill-attack ... they could do tons of damage but have the property to leave the player with 1 HP if the damage exceeds the player total HP.. so it is much more exciting and way less frustrating that way .... and since potions aren't very easy to get in D3 this could actually work.

 

[NASE]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

Besides those special attacks don't have to be an instant-kill-attack ... they could do tons of damage but have the property to leave the player with 1 HP if the damage exceeds the player total HP.. so it is much more exciting and way less frustrating that way .... and since potions aren't very easy to get in D3 this could actually work.

Oh, how interesting.
Yes that was sarcasm.


This is still diablo. A big attack *should* kill, not leave you at one point. That's just completely wrong.
And about those warnings, you don't need seconds. My glass cannon bowazon with just 350 life doesn't die against diablo anymore. And that's totally because of the animation that precedes his lighting hose of dead. That's more then enough warning for a skilled player.


P.S. Things like being knocked of the edge into the depth are perfect examples of how it can be done. Just give the player a warning at the start of the battle by making the boss throw some barrels/minions of the edge.

 

[stillman]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

One hit kills at end level is taking it too far. See, you may as well not even wear any life gear. But yeah, just making them freeze you and giving them big hit points is pretty cheap.

I think Diablo in d2 did have a few 'terror' combos, like when he uses his bone prison on you, then roasts you and you can't get away. Or, when you make a tp and he bone prisons it so you can't go in. Or, you sneak off the screen and he suddenly uses a firewall just when you thought you were out of range. Or, he chills you with his melee hit and then you can't outrun the hose. But he still needs more than the little handful of predictable tricks.

 

[NASE]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

One hit kills at end level is taking it too far. See, you may as well not even wear any life gear. But yeah, just making them freeze you and giving them big hit points is pretty cheap.

You can see it the other way too. If you don't wear any life gear, why should you survive?

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

Oh, how interesting.
Yes that was sarcasm.


This is still diablo. A big attack *should* kill, not leave you at one point. That's just completely wrong.

Completely worng !!! .. really ... well it isn't wrong at all ... the attack could be magical in nature with that property .. it doesn't have to be a normal physical attack.

Besides .. which is more fun (which is games are all about) .. dying from a stupid one hit attack you had no chance of dodging or being left with 1 HP wihle surrounded by boss minions and the boss is just preparing to charge at you ... the 2nd example is far more tense, fun and exciting without being stupidly frustrating .. you can still act but the situation is tight and feels hopeless ... that's how it should be done IMO.

And about those warnings, you don't need seconds. My glass cannon bowazon with just 350 life doesn't die against diablo anymore. And that's totally because of the animation that precedes his lighting hose of dead. That's more then enough warning for a skilled player.

D2 example is invalid ... we don't know how boss battles will be like in D3 at all or what skills will D3 bosses use ... it appears most battles will involve tactics .. environmental traps and boss minions .. and if all these distractions are around you flinching for few seconds is more than enough for a boss to land a powerful attack on you.

P.S. Things like being knocked of the edge into the depth are perfect examples of how it can be done. Just give the player a warning at the start of the battle by making the boss throw some barrels/minions of the edge.

Still it is stupid if you find yourself carried in the boss hand without any prior warning animation or effect because you couldn't calculate or fathom in centimeter what is the exact range for the skill effect ... that's just ridiculous ... and such extreme mechanics are prone to bugs like the then ones in D2 .. bad food is bad food no matter how much garnish you put on it.

I hope D3 devs aren't lazy and will come up with challenging boss battles without resorting to cheap lazy design mechanics like one-hit-kills ... complex situations with multiple threats that require tactics and good reflexes are far better and satisfying ... but alas .. only good designers can make them .. they aren't for the lazy ones to make.

 

[Bad Ash]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

puh-lease. Go ahead. play single player, or on lan starting new with no items. you WILL struggle. you WILL have a hard time beating the regular bosses. just because the D2 community is flawed doesnt mean the game is. Keep trying to make a char with 0% influence from the community and play off of what you have found. You will struggle from one hell boss to the next

D2 is 10 years old. people should know how to exploit the game. Why wouldnt they after so long?

Show me a game t hat all its secrets are still private and there are 0 cheat codes after 10 years. I'll wait cause you wont find one

 

[Visage]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

lol bad ash please..

last ladder season me and my team of 7 went through the whole game in 2 and half days

norm-hell

yes its easy to glitch stuff like we glitch the andy quest so she has a better chance of dropping uniques glitching her on nm is such an easy way to get sojs.

but in no way is it a struggle or a challenge

 

[Nihilas]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

lol bad ash please..

last ladder season me and my team of 7 went through the whole game in 2 and half days

norm-hell

yes its easy to glitch stuff like we glitch the andy quest so she has a better chance of dropping uniques glitching her on nm is such an easy way to get sojs.

but in no way is it a struggle or a challenge

Haha Visage please.

He said single game, it's WAY harder than playing 8 people in one game. And every boss is hard if you play SINGLE player. Seems like you haven't.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

It isn't just about being hard or easy .. that's just one third of the problem of designing good bosses.

They can be made actually very hard .. it's very easy to do .. but in a stupid way (Duriel is one example) ... just make them kill all players with a ton of one-hit-kills, dodge all attacks and have tons and tons of HP .. that's awful and stupid design and can easily be done if you are lazy and can't design a good boss battle ... it feels like a boss designed by a 10 years old kid with 60 IQ .. and most of D2 bosses came close to that.

Boss design should never be done in this silly way (just add a bigger model more HP and few one hit kills .. TADA .. boss is ready) .. if anyone played action or other RPGs out there they will surely understand how good challenging well thought boss battle can be made ... and i was very glad to hear that the D3 Devs are looking to upgrade the boss battles and make them epic and challenging like modern action games.


A given is that having minions fight the player during the boss battle itself help to both make the battle feel more epic and put stress on the player .. specially if the minions are strong or come in different types that require differernt strategies (which was never done in D2 .. even in Baal you had to battle the minions on their own first then boss) ... and also allows for implementing various ways to make the battle more balanced (like some minions dropping Healing globes .. since potions will be rare) ... not to mention bosses using the environment against you (crashing the place down on you or throwing boulders at you .... or the environment itself having some hazards or traps during the boss battle .. there are already tons of ideas to make boss battles interesting and challenging with some thought and effort.

Long story short ... D3 Devs are bent on making the battles really meaningful and interesting this time and those who experienced boss battles in other modern action or RPG games will really appreciate it ... simply because the Bosses in D2 regardless of being hard or easy were very boring, badly designed and extremely outdated.

 

[SlechtWeerBeer]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

This is still diablo. A big attack *should* kill, not leave you at one point. That's just completely wrong.
And about those warnings, you don't need seconds. My glass cannon bowazon with just 350 life doesn't die against diablo anymore. And that's totally because of the animation that precedes his lighting hose of dead. That's more then enough warning for a skilled player.

So every demon should instakill, then? Any ranged attacker should cripple you, disable limbs and in general be a total ***** to hit in melee because they have feet and they'd just shoot yours off with their magical exploding arrows of doom? You're playing a hero, not a mere human.

One-on-one fights are just way too easy because you can see everything coming right at you, as you already stated by using the Red Lightning Hose example. Have you tried Median XL? Mephisto with /p8 is hell on Normal if you play untwinked, because he summons a lot of minions, has a larger variety of attacks, and an actual brain. There's no need for OHKO's if you make the fight harder by diverting the focus of the player. The enviroment can play a good role in this, too.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

One-on-one fights are just way too easy because you can see everything coming right at you, as you already stated by using the Red Lightning Hose example. Have you tried Median XL? Mephisto with /p8 is hell on Normal if you play untwinked, because he summons a lot of minions, has a larger variety of attacks, and an actual brain. There's no need for OHKO's if you make the fight harder by diverting the focus of the player. The enviroment can play a good role in this, too.

I couldn't have said it better .... good thing we already have an example in Median XL mod, if that's going to be the design philosophy in D3 for boss battles (and it apparently is) then we are in for a treat.

And those parts One-on-one fights are just way too easy because you can see everything coming right at you and "There's no need for OHKO's if you make the fight harder by diverting the focus of the player. The enviroment can play a good role in this, too." ... it sums up the whole problem pretty well.

 

[NASE]

Re: i hope the fix the bosses

There is a difference between. "There is no need for ohko's" and "ohko's can have there place in the game" and "my 350 life bowazon should be one hitted" and "my 7 k wolfbarb should be one hitted".

Clearly, you refuse to except this.