I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

[JonathanNathan]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Look at D3, green/yellow grass, plants, living trees. What do you want? You want those grass to be all dead and blood stained, those plants plants to be dead, those trees to be leafless and toppled over?

Something like that.

1 serious flaw that's in everyone's argument is that D3 should look scary, but D2 was never scary and those people know it damn well in their hearts.

You're right. It's amazing, that skill you have of looking into my soul with such biting accuracy. But no, in reality, I don't agree with you. Act 1 takes place mostly outdoors, and yet retains a very foreboding visual tone and color palette, like Tristram on a bad day. Act 2 takes place in a desert, which is pretty tough to make foreboding, which is probably a big part of the reason that they tainted the sun for most of the Act, and sent you underground as much as possible. Act 3 is in a creepy jungle, intercut with time spent in ruined temples and disgusting sewers, and a fair amount of time in a devastated, demonic, Aztec-style city. Act 4 is literally in Hell. Act 5 is probably the least creepy of all of them, because it's in the mountains and then in a somewhat over-the-top, cartoonish fortress vaguely reminiscent of something I saw in the D1 expansion, Hellfire. But those first four Acts, when compared with the screens we've seen of D3, are much scarier.

By the way, your screenshot is taken from one of the least visually dark segments of D2, and still doesn't really compare in lightness of tone to the D3 images we've seen.

Bashiok responded to the post by saying, "Thank you, that was a perfect feedback post. These are the types of posts I can literally bring directly to the designers." Do you think he was lying?

Of course I do. You should analyze the company line before you buy into it, dude. Of course they're going to say that. Tons of companies, from all different areas of the economy, say things like that. But they don't follow through, and if they do, it's a one-shot gimmick like the re-edit of Snakes on a Plane. No one's influencing the design of Diablo III, and if it looks like they do, it'll either be something Blizzard wanted to do anyway, or it'll be a one-shot gimmick that allows them to say, "Hey, we were listening!"

Cartoony graphics and large inventories are older than WoW, and not remotely WoW-centric. If Blizzard could add new things to Warcraft III like heroes and items, then why can't they add new things to Diablo 3 like a different graphic style and larger inventories?

To me, they're WoW-centric because the same development team is doing the games, and--this is the most important part--they're openly admitting that a lot of their changes are WoW-centric. "Admit" isn't even the right word--it implies that they know it's not a good thing. "Triumphantly proclaiming" might be a better concept for what they're doing.

My point wasn't just that they took it from Diablo 2, but that the elements made Warcraft 3 very different than Warcraft 2. Were you upset about those differences?

No. I've made it very clear that I have no problem with a game changing if it specifically makes the game better. Warcraft III is indisputably better than Warcraft II, by any reasonable evaluation. Unless you like a game to be completely impossibly hard, because some of those Beyond the Dark Portal levels, man, ****in' forget about it.

It's pretty hypocritical to complain about the lack of consistency in D3 when Warcraft III had a much bigger issue of consistency.

I was very skeptical about that change, but grew to accept it. It was actually a very minor component of the game. It seemed to primarily exist so that very specific, pre-set, quest-style items could be picked up. The rest of its uses were just bonuses. I still approached Warcraft III as an RTS. Furthermore, although it had many changes, Warcraft III maintained tonal and visual consistency with Warcraft II, something I'm not sure Diablo III will do, and currently believe it does not do.

As long as the game looks like diablo (the game is unmistakably D3) and plays like diablo (which it seems to do) then they can't go wrong.

If you showed that game to a D2 fan, back when the 1.10 patch came out, and said, "Hey, what do you think this game is about?," I really doubt any of us would have said, "THAT IS UNMISTAKABLY DIABLO THREE."

Face it, you won't be happy unless they re-release D2 as D3 or go back in time and erase WOW.

You guys are just so good at this psychic thing. It's like a whole forum full of Miss Cleo clones. I'm sure you want to be arguing against someone that easily pigeonholed and written off, but that's not who I am.

What's funny about this, the above once again shows you have no idea how a game is developed.

And you, by contrast, are an old ranch hand? Enlighten me about your experience.

And you feel you are entitled to question the professionalism and competence of those involved.

Professionalism? When did I question professionalism? I don't know that I've even questioned their competence. I've questioned their decisionmaking. I've questioned their product. I've questioned their criteria. But I don't know that I've questioned their competence. On the contrary, I think I've repeatedly said things to the effect of, "Blizzard never makes a bad game." So, you know, reading FTW.

I hope you are at least 58-60. Because otherwise it would be quiet impossible to be your son.

Yeah, I was doing that to make a point about the caliber of your attacks on me. I'm 22.

I'm 42, btw.

I figured you were somewhere around there.

Your insistence to call me "son" is just your weak attempt at provoking me. But you really can't. You just don't know that yet.

You've already completely abandoned civility. I haven't. So who's lost his temper?

Your opinions, but especially how you have put them, and your insistence on them, all helped create a sort of shield. You see, I pity you and your attitudes. I actually feel I'm superior to you. You lack juice to be able to have a decent conversation with anyone on this matter. So, you do make people feel better about themselves and look at you with scorn.

Wow. One gigantic slice of armchair pop-psych. If you think you're gonna make me cry or something, you're failing.

Some of us here know the company and their work too from even before you did.

And I'm sure your experience with Rock & Roll Racing was wonderful, but hardly relevant to the discussion of whether I'm a Blizzard-hater.

And you don't see us trying to use that as some form of empowerment. Because it isn't.

I think you need to work on reading my responses and seeing what they responded to. I say things about my history as a Blizzard gamer in response to those who say I just hate Blizzard and seek to discredit everything they do.

Finally, because you will in fact buy this game the day it comes out, no matter what you think about it and all you have been saying about it, is really yet another revealing aspect of your personality. Incredible!

It's "incredible" that I have complex views about a game and a company? It's "incredible" that my views can't be summed up in one simple sentence? It's "incredible" that despite many reservations about the product, my experience with Blizzard has been so strongly positive that I'm willing to give the game a shot on faith? What's "incredible" about that?

Your "nihilism" comparison is just yet another weak attempt and dismissing an argument through absurdity.

What it is, is saying that we can dispense with your dime-store philosophy. Who cares that it's "just a game"? It's the thing we're here to talk about. So your insistence on saying that "it's just a game, it's not important" is out of place, and patently ridiculous. Try going to an Oakland Raiders fansite and saying, "football's just a game!" Or to the DC Comics forums and saying "Comics are just fiction!" Yeah. A little silly.

 

[JonathanNathan]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Imo quotes accomplish this very well.

Problem is, quotes still create a very long post when you are responding to three or four different people. See above.

But usually when I quote people and feel the need to split up the post to avoid huge wall of texts I always make sure each quote has the OP's name in it.

Generally, because I'm lazy, the way I'll do it is have a separate post for each post I'm responding to (or, if some of them are small, I'll group them together), and then have the first quote from each post post being responded to have name/date tags. The ones that follow are then assumed to be from the same post.

I don't think so. I'm almost certain they said this about D3, and IIRC it was mostly aimed at skill icons and such. Although I can imagine it's easier to copy similarities from other games to get it working so they can test different aspects of the game, then to finish off with finding the artistic direction which makes the game unique. We've already seen some pretty big changes, and I doubt it's the last.

They may have said that about the skill icons at one point, but in recent discussions they've been very clear that the skill icon direction is something they're excited about and are keeping. Blizzcast Eight, for example.

There is one thing I fail to see though, why is it such a bad thing that they borrow some stuff from WoW, adapt it to D3 and improve upon it. Just because the borrow from WoW doesn't make D3 a ARPG version of WoW

It's not inherently bad. The Fury thing is apparently straight out of WoW, and I actually think it's the best change that's been made, and most importantly, has a real precedent in Diablo history. It's not as radical of a departure as it might seem. Mana Shield (and a couple other spells that never made it into D1) are somewhat related to the idea, and one of the characters that was supposed to make it into Hellfire, the Blood Mage, has been speculated to possibly have been using this kind of system, or something related to it--well before WoW was even conceptualized.

On another note, if you've followed the production of SC2 you can see the exact same thing.

I haven't followed it much. I think I trust them more implicitly with Starcraft, and the things I have seen look kickass, so I haven't really delved much further.

Yea I think they're claiming that they want to focus more on storry, however I don't find it offensive or arrogant at all.

But to imply that they're focusing "more" on story suggests that the North guys were focusing "less" on story. That's patently ridiculous. The North guys were focusing heavily on story when the Irvine guys were doing Warcraft II.

The Blizzard North devs failed miserably when not working for Blizzard, which says quite a bit about Blizzard as a company.

All the more reason for Blizzard to get those guys back. It'd be best for them, and it'd be best for Blizzard, and it'd be best for the games.

In the case of most of the Diablo novels I think you're misstaken.

That's certainly possible. By the time they came out, I was already far beyond disillusioned with game-based novels, so I never tried them.

 

[AxlStrife]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Please don't buy the game if you have such disgust with the major parts of it. Show Blizzard your discontent in one of the best ways possible, the other being making your own version. I'm not saying you should feel the way you do, but as with anyone's opinions, your views are as important as everyone else's views outside of those that are actually making the game.

One question that I do have: How is questioning the decision-making and the product made from a company not questioning their competence?

 

[akboy]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

You're right. It's amazing, that skill you have of looking into my soul with such biting accuracy. But no, in reality, I don't agree with you. Act 1 takes place mostly outdoors, and yet retains a very foreboding visual tone and color palette, like Tristram on a bad day. Act 2 takes place in a desert, which is pretty tough to make foreboding, which is probably a big part of the reason that they tainted the sun for most of the Act, and sent you underground as much as possible. Act 3 is in a creepy jungle, intercut with time spent in ruined temples and disgusting sewers, and a fair amount of time in a devastated, demonic, Aztec-style city. Act 4 is literally in Hell. Act 5 is probably the least creepy of all of them, because it's in the mountains and then in a somewhat over-the-top, cartoonish fortress vaguely reminiscent of something I saw in the D1 expansion, Hellfire. But those first four Acts, when compared with the screens we've seen of D3, are much scarier.

Did you find that out by looking at screenshots and short gameplay footage of D2? Or did you play it? Can't you play D3 before judging it? Blizzard has already said the game gets much darker in later acts. You don't want the whole game to look like a horror movie. You want the game to build up to that.

I was very skeptical about that change, but grew to accept it. It was actually a very minor component of the game. It seemed to primarily exist so that very specific, pre-set, quest-style items could be picked up. The rest of its uses were just bonuses. I still approached Warcraft III as an RTS. Furthermore, although it had many changes, Warcraft III maintained tonal and visual consistency with Warcraft II, something I'm not sure Diablo III will do, and currently believe it does not do.

Skepticism is fine, but you're going way beyond skepticism here. You're acting like you already know the tone of the entire game and how all the game mechanics will play out. But you have no way of knowing that. Why can't you give the changes a chance before you condemn them as Diablo heresy? It worked with Warcraft 3, couldn't it work with D3?

 

[raveharu]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Seriously guys why continue this pointless redundant argument?

AS IF it will change anything.

/thread epic fail.

 

[visom]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

@JohnathanNathan
I'm not talking about the light I'm talking about the colors. I can take a screenshot of Act2 if you want, it'll also include the lights.

I get your other argument, I disagree, I don't feel any sense of fear act all in act1 (except the graveyard, which is a very short experience). Act2, just because my light radius went down that doesn't mean I'm sweating fear. Act3, I lost respect for fear when I saw those fetishes. Act4, sure its in hell... but how is that supposed to be scary, am I suppose to magically feel a sharp spike of fear go down my spine when I enter the river of flames?

Or maybe is it because I see the Diablo series as more of an action game than a horror game? Or am I not suppose to see Diablo as an action game but instead a horror game, that all this time I experience the Diablo series the wrong way?

 

[Turnip]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EXtMIlfFU8
See 3:08
The fetishes rule Imagine them in 3d, it would rock.
Anyways that is how diablo 3 should be. I've always thought the mummy and indiana jones and stuff is how d2 is compared to WoW. WoW is more like a cartoony version of lord of the rings. Sadly atm d3 is a bit too childish to be comparable. Those fat zombies and stuff are also very WoW, the no light radius is WoWish, the colorfull and overblown armor is WoW, and the environment doesnt contain enough forboding; but dead bodies and stuff should be added hopefully.

Anyways atm it is just too silly, d2 tried to be realistic; now they dont seem to care. Indiana jones 4 is actually a perfect parallel from Diablo 2 to diablo 3.

 

[Krugar]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

You folks arguments are becoming more imaginative everyday. No wonder Blizzard stated already they aren't listening.

Doesn't surprise me either. They went through the exact same nonsense with D2 and WoW. A large group of very vocal, imaginative, and highly opinionated individuals saying all the worst things they could have said during the development stages of these games. "WoW looks too much like D2!", "D2 colors look all wrong!", "Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing!", "I'm never going to stop playing D1!". Yeah... I still remember some of the nonsense.

And then what happened? Right. Blizzard stuck their finger, went ahead regardless and did exactly what they know best how to do. Games.

Indiana Jones and pigmy mummies.. Amazing the stuff you can come up with.

 

[Demetrium]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Seriously guys why continue this pointless redundant argument?

AS IF it will change anything.

/thread epic fail.

I leave this thread alone for a day and it becomes a total mess! It got super derailed.

I guess my biggest question at this point is how someone who never played WoW because they "refuse to play games with monthly fees" is so adept at pointing out how an unfinished game is feeding completely off of it.

 

[Funkopotamus]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

"WoW looks too much like D2!"

I have a hard time fathoming anyone ever putting that combination of words together in voice or text.

Especially since WoW looks exactly like Warcraft 3 but with more detail.

 

[Krugar]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Good call Funkopotamus. But believe it or not, it was said. I seem to recall the issue was with talent trees, some of the game panes, item rarities system and with expansion packs, the socketed items and even sets.

But there was a lot more going on at the time. Those complaints are just a portion of what I remember. There was also a lot of graphics whining going on too. But I can't recall the details anymore so I'm leaving that out, least I say something wrong.

 

[JonathanNathan]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

How is questioning the decision-making and the product made from a company not questioning their competence?

It's questioning their priorities, their understanding of the Diablo concept, and their ability to agree with me.

Blizzard has already said the game gets much darker in later acts. You don't want the whole game to look like a horror movie. You want the game to build up to that.

I shouldn't have to wait until the last third of the game to play Diablo III. With regards to "buildup," a hallmark of the Diablo games has always been that they take place in the denouement. The buildup happened while you weren't playing, before the game started.

Why can't you give the changes a chance before you condemn them as Diablo heresy? It worked with Warcraft 3, couldn't it work with D3?

Because with Warcraft III, the developers weren't giving constant interviews in which they repeatedly said things like, "Oh, this classic element of gameplay is boring and stupid, we're taking it out." "Oh, this thing that worked very well in another game that is only tangentially similar to the one we're supposed to be working on, so we'll put that in."

I get your other argument, I disagree, I don't feel any sense of fear act all in act1 (except the graveyard, which is a very short experience). Act2, just because my light radius went down that doesn't mean I'm sweating fear. Act3, I lost respect for fear when I saw those fetishes. Act4, sure its in hell... but how is that supposed to be scary, am I suppose to magically feel a sharp spike of fear go down my spine when I enter the river of flames?

Well, in terms of actual fear, the only characters that ever made me afraid/tense in D2 were Andariel, Diablo, and Nihlathak. Because when I got to them the first time I played, I was doing just well enough that I had a shot at them, but not nearly well enough to go in certain.

But as a work of art, a piece of interactive fiction, Diablo undoubtedly has a gothic/horror tone to it. If you were watching someone else play rather than playing it yourself, I think you'd probably get more of that, especially from Acts 1, 3, and 4.

You folks...can come up with.

It's like the term "holier than thou" was invented for you. I'm always astonished when I meet people with the level of corporate faith and loyalty that you have. Are you pretty big on cubicle desk jobs?

I guess my biggest question at this point is how someone who never played WoW because they "refuse to play games with monthly fees" is so adept at pointing out how an unfinished game is feeding completely off of it.

Watched a lot of that game. Have a couple good buddies that used to play, one that still does. The entire thing looks more like some mechanical, boring, strenuous chore, rather than a "game." And, you know, money every month.

But believe it or not, it was said. I seem to recall the issue was with talent trees, some of the game panes, item rarities system and with expansion packs, the socketed items and even sets.

But there was a lot more going on at the time. Those complaints are just a portion of what I remember. There was also a lot of graphics whining going on too. But I can't recall the details anymore so I'm leaving that out, least I say something wrong.

Just shameful, those people, not taking what a company spoonfeeds them and just blindly giving in to the corporate line. Just shameful. If only we could all be more like Krugar, and be corporate lackeys that take any attack on their company as if it were a personal assault with a vicious weapon.

Seriously guys why continue this pointless redundant argument?

AS IF it will change anything.

And so, thoroughly chastened by raveharu's blistering logical attack, nobody ever made a thread on the internet again, because threads have to change the world to be viable.

 

[Krugar]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

If only we could all be more like Krugar, and be corporate lackeys that take any attack on their company as if it were a personal assault with a vicious weapon.

*yawn* Your rhetoric doesn't impress me. I told you this before.
You need to try harder... and you'll still fail. :yes:

Your attitude here has been revealing from day 0. You choose to use these forums to vent all that anger inside you, knowing that those that could actually do something about all your complaints wouldn't even look your way were you to come to them with your weak (read, non existing) arguments.

You see, you keep barking at the wrong tree and you just don't get it. I'd think you brighter than that. Not anymore. You are funny now.

 

[AxlStrife]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

It's questioning their priorities, their understanding of the Diablo concept, and their ability to agree with me.

You still haven't differentiated how all that you question about them is not questioning their competence as Diablo III designers.

"Their ability to agree with you"? As much as I can dig someone's sense of self-worth, you are most definitely NOT the end-all-be-all of everything Diablo unless you have something to prove that you are.

 

[akboy]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

I shouldn't have to wait until the last third of the game to play Diablo III. With regards to "buildup," a hallmark of the Diablo games has always been that they take place in the denouement. The buildup happened while you weren't playing, before the game started.

But D2 wasn't a constant horror fest either. It had plenty of well lit, grassy green, sun burnt, lush forest, bright snow areas.

There was build up in D2. You start in grassy fields, and end in a literal fiery hell and a war torn mountain.

Because with Warcraft III, the developers weren't giving constant interviews in which they repeatedly said things like, "Oh, this classic element of gameplay is boring and stupid, we're taking it out." "Oh, this thing that worked very well in another game that is only tangentially similar to the one we're supposed to be working on, so we'll put that in."

Which "classic element" of D2 did they take out?

The devs may not have come out and said it, but they did precisely what you described. They liked how heroes, experience, spells and items worked in RPGs, like Diablo 2, and they decided to use it in WC3, even though the two games are only "tangentially similar" to each other. Except, WoW and D3 are both types of RPGs. WC3 was an RTS, a genre that usually has very little in common with RPGs. So crossing mixing the genres is far more drastic a change than anything in D3.

 

[Ouroboros]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Wow .. this thread fails in basic civility. I don't know why Jonathan feels the need to be so aggresive and combative. This is a fun place where fans of the Diablo franchise discuss the games. Please, we all appreciate rhetorical bluster, but only to a certain degree .. after a while you're just aggravating and provoking people .. for what benefit, God knows.

Guys, seriously .. this thread has been hijacked, turned upside down on its head, and become so redundant, it stinks. Rational people like Krugar, Grug, and others who are posting here .. reconsider please. Its just one guy who revels in verbal combat, nothing else. The legit points he brings up can be discussed in a civil way with other people, not with someone who feels it necessary to snark in a personal attack in between every other good point he makes.

Whatever, I bet Jonathan Nathan will have fun multi-quoting my post, but its truly not directed at him. I hope the rational members of Diii.net read this post and consider this one thing:

Please ... Stop ... Feeding ... The ... Troll.

You guys are way better than that. Leave it alone, the other guy is obviously too in love with himself to quit.

 

[Grug]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Way ahead of you, ouroboros.

 

[Ouroboros]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

Yeah bro .. I was away from the forums for the weekend, came back on and foudn this thread like this. Gave me a headache reading through it.

 

[Krugar]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

You are absolutely right. I had promised myself I would be doing just that. Shame on me I didn't.

 

[Ouroboros]

Re: I feel D3 is too much like WoW because...

All good really Krugar. You shared some great insight through the course of the thread. I guess civility is too much to ask for when people have the anonymity of the internet to hide behind. Anyhow, If people stop responding to him, I doubt he'll hang around for too long.