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I feel as if we are standing on the thresh hold...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Shug_Ninx, Apr 8, 2004.

  1. Shug_Ninx

    Shug_Ninx IncGamers Member

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    I feel as if we are standing on the thresh hold...

    With the insurrection in Iraq, it seems that things are only getting worse and worse over there. I dont know if we will pull out of Iraq on our given date and leave the country in whatever situation it is but I do think that there will be lasting consequences because of it. Does anyone get the feeling - besides just me - that this is the beginning of the end for US dominance/influence in the world?

    Take for example: because of Iraq, we have become divided with our allies. Because of our new "focus" on the middle-east we are closing off bases in Germany and Western Europe and moving them to less powerful former soviet satallites and volatile dictatorships in Asia. Does this translate to us having less influence in those countries?

    Economically, we are also losing our strength. The dollar is now weaker then the Euro. Since the 80's, we also spend more then we produce and that translates to increasing debt. One question I've asked some ecnomists at our school is, "how high do we have to go in debt until the floor breaks?" What is the breaking point here? We are 7 trillion dollars in debt right now; thats getting close to the amount of combined GDP the American economy makes each year. None of them were able to answer this question for me. I think its foolish for some people out there to assume that we can continue to keep going in debt like this since we are treading new ground here.

    I know that some forum conservatives will say that this is some doom-and-gloom thread that I'm just putting out thats overexaggerating our situation, but I'm not so sure. I consider myself pretty modorate when it comes social and economic issues, and I cant shake the feeling that we're hurting right now, and its only going to get worse. I dont blame Bush all for it, I think this problem was a long-time coming. The cold war ended, and we simply failed to see that. We failed to see that the world is not going to tolorate us using the same tactics and blunt influence we've used during the cold war. Back then there was a rival [USSR] we all were opposed to [it was tolorated]. Now things are different.

    I wonder what our future holds for us...
     
  2. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    Nope. I reckon things will be peachy.
     
  3. MinasMorgul

    MinasMorgul IncGamers Member

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    If they keep going on the road they are going on, it will probably end USA dominance/influence in the world, someday...
     
  4. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    As long as we got the nukes...

    My political science prof used about 3 weeks to explain to us all about nukes, their influence, use, which countries have them...

    US still has the capability to launch the most nukes out of any country. (Russia has more nukes, but it can't launch as many as the US can).

    So US will be dominant for a long time to come.

    And here's a fun fact that i learned. Each trident (name, sp?) submarine carries as much explosive power as 8xWWII. Overkill?
     
  5. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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  6. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    Each boomer has 24 missles. Each missle has 8-12 MIRVs. Each MIRV is up to a 200 kiloton nuke.

    24 x 8 x 200,000 tonnes = 38,400,000 tonnes of bang.
    24 x 12 x 200,000 tonees = 57,600,000 tonnes of bang.

    The more important thing is that each MIRV is accurate to within 500 yards from 20,000 miles away. That 500 yard accuracy is the smallest number I've ever seen declassfied. I'm sure it's closer to 50 yards.
     
  7. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    Try again. My parents as well as all their friends are getting or have already gotten laid off. (Computer programming).

    Many many big companies are moving out of the US and going to places like India.
     
  8. bigD72

    bigD72 IncGamers Member

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    I have been thinking the same thing for a good bit, but I think simply because we have the military might and we are isolated enough from the rest of the world (with those two pretty oceans to either side.) We will always have some influence and won't have the an attack on American lands (from a country) for a good long time. Simply because we can probably destroy the attack before it reaches us, I doubt any country could mount an air attack or naval attack we couldn't put out before it got to home.

    But, now we are more of a bully in the class and everyone knows that one kid that gets picked on will take some karate lessons and get bigger and stronger than the bully and put him in his place along with the rest of the class.
    Nice little metaphor for comparison.
     
  9. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    Don't give me that crap. 10 months steady job growth, manufacturing up, profits up, home starts up, everything is up.

    Even outsourcing is up. But in reverse
    Nothing anybody can tell me will change the fact that every single figure for nearly a year shows the economy has been growing and now booming.
     
  10. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Really? Only France and Germany?

    Why don't you try that again.

    Out of all the traditional NATO countries, how many are in our "coalition of the bribed" in Iraq? Let's see, there' Brittain and... uhm... and... oh yeah, Poland! Poland isn't exactly a traditional NATO ally (the Warsaw Pact was named after one of their cities after all), but they are technically a NATO ally.

    Also there's... uhm... Spain. No wait, they pulled out.

    There's... uhm... Australia. Wait, they're not in NATO at all and were relatively insignificant to the Cold War effort.

    Do you really think it's just Germany and France? Dream on. Britain and Poland are the only NATO countries in our "coalition" and both of them are taking heat from their respective populations for being involved in Iraq.

    Sorry Smeg, the only liar I see here is you.

    Have you paid any attention to what's been going on in the E.U.? Lost influence with whom? The only people they've lost influence with is American conservatives, but only after conservatives caused us to lose what influence we had with them.

    That's why only two Eastern European nations are even remotely involved in our coalition and even they are involved to a fairly limited extent.

    Try not to get sand in your ears.

    This is the only time in history anyone has ever cut taxes durring a war. War causes expenses to go up. Tax cuts cause revenues to go down. What do you suppose the net result of this will be?

    Republicans can talk all they want about "fiscal responsibility" but actions speak louder than words: Republicans consistently run much higher deficits whenever they're in power.

    I'm not sure "optimism" is the word I would choose, but if that euphemism works for you then go for it.
     
  11. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    Srry bud, i don't buy it.

    My parents and their friends are much closer to home than some facts that create so little amount of jobs compared to the population of the US.

    Every1 who my my parents know that had computer programming jobs got laid off.

    And the jobs that are being created majorily are the lower-skill jobs. Factory, manufacturing, assembly line, not high-skilled ones like programming.
     
  12. Shug_Ninx

    Shug_Ninx IncGamers Member

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    Freemason, I think there is a few points I like to disagree with you on.
    1. A few hundred thousand is a lot for a country [like Iraq]. And it cannot be considered minor when 7 cities have already fallen to them. Even if we do reclaim victory, remember that the Tet Offensive ultimately ended in victory for us. But, the political ramifications were an entirely different matter.
    2. Spain is going to pull out of Iraq after their tour of duty ends. The polish prime ministers has expressed "regrets" over the probability of being misled by America in the Iraq conflict. Our staunchest allies are Pakistan and the other 'Stans in Asia.. We dont know what kind of Strength Romania or many of the other soviet block countries will bring. Its too early to tell.
    3. I could be wrong about the national debt but there is some merit to what I'm saying in that our dollar is falling compared to other currencies, and that our debt is approaching the amount we produce each year. I am not as much worried about outsourcing: that is a natural part of the capitolist system and we may just have to suck it up and accept.

    EDIT: and one last thing: I dont believe in taxing the rich as much as cutting the governments excessive spending. Right now, I am more or less leaning to smaller government/fewer benefits to stave off our increasing debt.
     
  13. Kitana

    Kitana IncGamers Member

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    Actually, I'm not really sure that I agree with that one, DPH.

    The boyfriend is just graduating from college, and he's been on... well a LOT of interviews. All of them for computer programming, and they are all over the east coast. Cleveland, Boston, Fairfax, New York, Philly... they are all hiring. And it wasn't just one job here, or one job there, these were companies that were hiring anywhere from 5 - 300 people at a time, and all the job offers he has gotten so far have all been over 50k/year... just coming out of college.
     
  14. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    My parents get several calls form people every day. Some even end up in interviews. They are all dead ends.

    I remember overhearing my mom saying about a requirement for a job opening:

    java
    C++
    C-sharp
    oracle object-oreinted
    delphi
    power-builder
    and some other stuff to the list


    You have to be the most elite of the most elite to know so many things.
     
  15. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    War is Peace. Ignorance is Strength ... George Orwell
     
  16. Technetium

    Technetium IncGamers Member

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    Actually, I think it is much more likely that our country will fall from within, triggered by a nuclear weapon being detonated in either New York City or Washington DC.

    Uranium mines in Africa which were "officially" closed by governments there are still running in operation under the radar, and according to the report I've heard, foreign nationals have been seen in the area (presumably to buy the uranium).

    Our seaports are vastly underprotected. It would be extremely easy at this time to get a small nuclear weapon into the country on a cargo ship. There are plans in the works to get these seaports up to a level where everything entering can be tracked and measured for radiation seepage, but this would likely be years in the future, if not more than a decade. There is supposed to be something about eventually banning imports from countries which do not protect their shipments with vigorous screenings, but again, right now the door is wide open.

    I still think that nuclear destruction of the seat of our government would trigger an eruption of panic across the country, and while perhaps some local governments would be able to maintain order, there would be widespread looting and violence.

    To quote Humphrey Bogart: "Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow..." I would like to hope that our intelligence agencies are currently scanning deeply for any threats like this, but I am not confident at all in their ability to ensure their ability to stop it from happening.
     
  17. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    Tech, you need to read the book Warday.
     
  18. Technetium

    Technetium IncGamers Member

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    Well, I will take that under consideration, but for the sake of continuing the conversation, what is it about?

    My concern about this issue is one of the things which compells me to want to learn to use a gun. If it should come to that, I want to be able to protect myself and people who depend on me. I've even thought about the idea of starting a militia designed to regain and preserve order if something tragic like that were to happen, but militias seem to get a very bad rap these days for being white supremists and/or religious whackos, which I want nothing to do with.
     
  19. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    I don't think the looting and violence would be such a big problem.

    Think of the blackout last summer. All of the east coast, reaching pretty far inland. Only 2~3 places were looted in NYC...
     
  20. Technetium

    Technetium IncGamers Member

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    I think that's quite different, though. We were notified right away that it wasn't due to terrorism. We knew there was still a central government looking out (in theory anyways) for our best interests. I think it would be a little different if people had reason to think they could very well die any time from similar causes (as the nuclear weapon scenario), and that there no longer was a federal government present to do anything about it.
     

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