I don't get the point of Hardcore

[MoUsE_WiZ]

The point of hardcore? Two reasons.
Getting a reason to act elitest around sissycore players.
A "game over" screen exists. You still can't beat the game, but by god you know when you've lost it.

while others instead will NOT play a hell(some even nm) game without a loaded up BO barb to almost tripple their life

Depends on what you're doing.

YOU try porting hell baals with no bo on a sorc that's still in smoke/spirit/mosers type gear. Doesn't matter what build, that's a death wish.

Similarily, I can't do CS without BO because I need my merc for CIs, and although I can run around in the CS without the BO just fine myself, I can't clear it if my merc's getting owned constantly.

On the other hand, Jugz makes me giggle because he won't meph without BO >.>

 

[Lord Penguin]

are you really saying that MH/chicken is less present on the realm these days? how odd... and amusing

Not really. Probly a slightly smaller amount of mh/chickeners. Maybe 10-20% less than before. The mh that most non "hardcore cheaters" use does not include chicken or anything other than a revealed map with no monster icons/tags/etc. Just saying that now if someone has chicken they also have tppk triggers as well as all those antitppk things that will undoubtedly make them disapear if you even breathe funny let alone hostile for a legit pk. I like to call those clients "Softcore.rar". Pretty lame.

YOU try porting hell baals with no bo on a sorc that's still in smoke/spirit/mosers type gear. Doesn't matter what build, that's a death wish.

Thats... supposed to be a death wish. Youre not really supposed to be able to do that kind of thing with the described gears. I have a few chars that are alot tankier(one is 80 with 90 80 85 80 res in hell and 30 dr +max block) than the gears you described and none of them are past hell act1. Im just saying.. its not really that hardcore if you make it easy on yourself. To each his own though.

 

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Im just saying.. its not really that hardcore if you make it easy on yourself.

So you'd go fight the ubers without stacked resists or high level conviction?
Or maybe ancients at 20, NM ancients at 40, hell ancients at 60, on untwinked characters?
And I suppose you'd never, ever, considering doing countess runs at the start of the season to get insight and/or spirit?

Gear makes the game easier.
Levels make the game easier.
Knowledge of game mechanics make the game easier.
Parties make the game easier.
Doing anything other than clearing each zone once, solo, in 8 player games, makes the game easier.
Using skill/stat points makes the game easier.
Playing builds other than throwadins, singers, spearzons, and PD necros makes the game easier.
Lots of things I haven't listed make the game easier.
BO also makes the game easier.

Not doing something because it makes the game easier isn't being hardcore, it's being stupid and/or hypocritical. Or possibly you're just doing it for fun (I bet I've made more throw/bowadins than anyone >.>), but that doesn't make you more of a hardcore player, it's just something to do.

Using available options is smart play. Period.
If BO makes the impossible possible why wouldn't I use it? Because it's "supposed" to be a deathwish? I think Blizzard gave us 8 player games for a reason... so we could play in parties and take advantage of the abilities of other classes... abilities like BO.

The reason I say it depends, and I giggle at Jugz, is because there is a such thing as overkill... when you're slowing yourself down by making yourself safer, when you're already 100% safe, it stops being smart play and starts being inefficient.

 

[Rawis]

Actually the question should be "Why play softcore?".

It's so pathetically easy to just play without a risk of losing anything but some gold and exp.

I, for one, enjoy challenges and not some vanillacrap.

 

[Lord Penguin]

So you'd go fight the ubers without stacked resists or high level conviction?
Or maybe ancients at 20, NM ancients at 40, hell ancients at 60, on untwinked characters?
And I suppose you'd never, ever, considering doing countess runs at the start of the season to get insight and/or spirit?

Gear makes the game easier.
Levels make the game easier.
Knowledge of game mechanics make the game easier.
Parties make the game easier.
Doing anything other than clearing each zone once, solo, in 8 player games, makes the game easier.
Using skill/stat points makes the game easier.
Playing builds other than throwadins, singers, spearzons, and PD necros makes the game easier.
Lots of things I haven't listed make the game easier.
BO also makes the game easier.

Not doing something because it makes the game easier isn't being hardcore, it's being stupid and/or hypocritical. Or possibly you're just doing it for fun (I bet I've made more throw/bowadins than anyone >.>), but that doesn't make you more of a hardcore player, it's just something to do.

Using available options is smart play. Period.
If BO makes the impossible possible why wouldn't I use it? Because it's "supposed" to be a deathwish? I think Blizzard gave us 8 player games for a reason... so we could play in parties and take advantage of the abilities of other classes... abilities like BO.

The reason I say it depends, and I giggle at Jugz, is because there is a such thing as overkill... when you're slowing yourself down by making yourself safer, when you're already 100% safe, it stops being smart play and starts being inefficient.

Seems like you took it personally. By it being Supposed to be a death wish, i meant it shouldnt be done for the most part. Not that you should do it and expect to die. Im just against it personally cus it removes a big part of the use of barbs and PARTY PLAY. Its already bad enough we have to not do pubs or risk tppk and not trust anyone..

All of the things you listed are game intended. You made it seem like im anti bo.. im anti load 4 keys and buff yourself with everything so youre basicly playing single player softcore(since its pretty damn hard to die with bo unless youre really reckless or you arent using proper gears). I guess you could maybe say i do it for fun.. but the same kind of fun as why i play hc to begin with over sc. If i cant die its not hc to me.. and since i dont pvp the possibility of death by monsters needs to still be there or else im just playing some 10year old game in godmode.

Alot of what you said is the same logic people use to justify cheating. I suppose everyone does some things. Ive used mh, i dont care if im tradeing for dupes, and i use the eth armor bug from time to time.. but the self buffing thing is past my limit i suppose.

 

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Alot of what you said is the same logic people use to justify cheating.

Except everything I listed, BO included, is within the boundaries of the game.

Seems like you took it personally

Not at all, infact I'd be a whole bunch richer right now if people didn't BO themselves and go do hell. I'm still on my first and only character this season, she got to hell meph virtually solo, and I'm sure there'd be less competition for me in the market if people didn't have bo slaves.

You're just being incredibly stupid.

i meant it shouldnt be done for the most part

Why not? High risk play increases the chances of dying, which by your logic makes it more like hardcore play, does it not?

m just against it personally cus it removes a big part of the use of barbs and PARTY PLAY

I'll give you that. It does make babas less desirable in party play if anyone can bring in a level 60, bo, then sit it in town. However you'd originally stated you were against it because it makes the game "less hardcore", which is an idiotic thing to say... it's playing the game in a way in which Blizzard has allowed for, and in a smart way.

so youre basicly playing single player softcore

You've stated you've got some fairly geared characters still sitting in A1 hell.
It's even tougher to die if you never play in areas where monsters do damage.
Your arguement would hold more water if you were soloing hell baals without BO, but from what I can tell you're sticking to low risk areas then complaining about the lack of risk.

 

[Rekoc]

Why play a game that is so easy to do when there is no risk involved?

Anyone can do endless baal runs to get to 99, make sucky chars to MF and find items, but in HC you have to know your character and what they can do before you even think about doing either of those. Whats a game with the ever fearing doubt of life and death hanging over your head? pshh.

 

[Lord Penguin]

Except everything I listed, BO included, is within the boundaries of the game.


Not at all, infact I'd be a whole bunch richer right now if people didn't BO themselves and go do hell. I'm still on my first and only character this season, she got to hell meph virtually solo, and I'm sure there'd be less competition for me in the market if people didn't have bo slaves.

You're just being incredibly stupid.


Why not? High risk play increases the chances of dying, which by your logic makes it more like hardcore play, does it not?



I'll give you that. It does make babas less desirable in party play if anyone can bring in a level 60, bo, then sit it in town. However you'd originally stated you were against it because it makes the game "less hardcore", which is an idiotic thing to say... it's playing the game in a way in which Blizzard has allowed for, and in a smart way.


You've stated you've got some fairly geared characters still sitting in A1 hell.
It's even tougher to die if you never play in areas where monsters do damage.
Your arguement would hold more water if you were soloing hell baals without BO, but from what I can tell you're sticking to low risk areas then complaining about the lack of risk.

Youre spinning alot of what im saying. Bo is in the game but meant as a party buff. You know what i mean youre just trying to twist it to fit your point(or lack thereof). Got bill oriely? :shocked: High risk play increases the chance of dieing yes. But throwing a lvl 33 bo on yourself makes it non high risk. With the gears you mentioned it would be high risk... id love to see someone tele through gloams and clear the throne of dolls and etc with that. But most likely i wont. Because they will eighther Bo them selves and try it(and probly still screw up and have to s/e sometimes) or not do it if they dont have bo. Youre just proving my point.

Im still in a1 because my damage gears are not yet up to par but my Defence gears are fine. I do almost all cold damage for now and not a shockingly huge amount. It takes a little while to kill cold immunes which i cant break yet wil lvl 22 conviction. I remade this char from last reset(mainly because i could do ANYTHING without bo last reset using it) mainly hoping to get some party play since i know how popular sorcs are and conviction would help them quite a bit.

I could just make a glass cannon an bo myself like alot of others but that is basicly what EVERYONE(besides duelers) in softcore does. And its boring to me. Furthermore, id actually like to quest through hell with real people. Ive tried to gather some ppl from the banana channel and it hasnt worked out. Partially because of some of the stuff ive already stated. Weather you admit it or not you are taking this too personally. I said originally i meant no disrespect to those who play like that. If you think its "Stupid" to play the game the way it was intended then theres no need to flame.

Youre a dueler right? How bout if someone enchants themself before a lld duel?

Not doing something because it makes the game easier isn't being hardcore, it's being stupid and/or hypocritical.

So if i have access to a enchantress... is it eighther stupid or hypocritical for me to not use it to kill some "Idoit" that wont use his cus he plans to use some actual skill? :laughing:

 

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Youre spinning alot of what im saying. Bo is in the game but meant as a party buff. You know what i mean youre just trying to twist it to fit your point(or lack thereof). Got bill oriely?

No, I'm not.
I know exactly what you mean - someone making a level 50 bo barb, parking in in A1 hell, while they go do whatever it is they were going to do, only now with BO. You don't like this.

There are some features of the game I don't like, for example, teleport is an incredibly overpowered spell in it's current form. That doesn't stop me from using it.

I don't like that people can leech to 99 (and most bo barbs do, due to IM) with ondal's in the throne if they know the right people, but that doesn't stop me from leeching a smiter to 85.

And I don't like the fact that you can BO yourself and triple your HP, but if I end up getting a smiter going again this season, I'm still going to do it before doing ubers.

All of these things are parts of the game, and if you want to succeed at the game you should probably use them if possible because THAT'S WHAT THE GAME IS.

YOU are redefining hardcore with an arbitrary set of rules and saying anyone who doesn't play by that set of rules is not really playing hardcore. Like I said, stupid. I play by the rules defined by the game I play except in the odd case where I feel like trying something different but don't feel like finding a new game.

The fact is, it's part of the game, and is likely to remain so.

You also realize that a BO barb casting BO at the start of a baal run, and me making a BO slave cast BO at the start of a baal run has the same net result, right? One sits in town, the other sits in the throne, but it's still the ONLY thing that the barb does in the run except in odd cases. It's not party play, it's me getting BO to go do my thing.

Im still in a1 because my damage gears are not yet upIm still in a1 because my damage gears are not yet up

So you're in A1 because you are still attempting to find gear?
Because I'm pretty sure that was about the point I was making... not that you're geared and should be further, but that you're waiting until you're geared well enough to go do something.

Weather you admit it or not you are taking this too personally. I said originally i meant no disrespect to those who play like that.

No offense intended, but you're ****ing stupid. See, it doesn't work like that.
You come off as elitist because you refuse to play the game in a way that the game is playable and say others are not hardcore because they do play the game in a way the game is playable.

And no, I'm not taking it personally, your point is just plain wrong and I like making sure people know when they're wrong.

So if i have access to a enchantress... is it eighther stupid or hypocritical for me to not use it to kill some "Idoit" that wont use his cus he plans to use some actual skill?

Sort of.
The thing with this example is that it's not your call whether the fight goes on or not.
If you enchant yourself, people will figure it out, and just not duel you. Ditto BO. Ditto town bears. Ditto chanters that pk people when they hit 9.
If people do duel you, chances are they're wearing noko and/or spurs, and consider you an easy ear... chant games are very easy to pk in because people are very overconfident and you know exactly what to expect and it's easy to counter.

A closer example might be sorb/res gear, because it's a bit tougher to spot until the first duel, and does a better job of making you invincible than enchant. In hardcore it's expected. In softcore people play by arbitrary rule sets that involve "not making yourself invincible to the other player" for the sake of fun duels... don't worry, *I'LL* have plenty of fun when a 10k iceblast heals me. This does still run into the same problem as chant (eg have to take a bit of it off to get the guy to come out to get your ear), but often times not until after it's too late.

 

[TheSatan]

No, in fact TPPK is not used because of chicken. Its nice that you state such a thing, but you lack knowledge of the actual facts. This is unsurprising though, as the rise of TPPK happened several years ago.

I'll state this simply:

manual Hydra TPPK --> Druid drop --> fake druid drop with Hydra TPPK --> drophack --> anti-drophack --> TPPK-script with Burzia-do-kanyon and 100% pierce --> chickenhack (settable upon hostile or % of life gone, whatever you wish)

Simultaniously:
Maphack by mousepad --> MH for everyone --> MH with anti-drophack feature --> MH with scangear etc --> MH with chicken

Everyone and their mom has MH. And their dog. And their dad, cat and baby sister. And thus chickenhack.

Which reminds me of this screenie... mmm... that was fun
http://ad2a.tripod.com/BarryPictures/Screenshot003.jpg
(copy=paste in browser )

Are you here just to disagree? I played during all that, many people TPPK'd because its the only practical way to PK in the presence of chicken and save&exit, and still do now. Thanks for the little timeline though for further confirming.

No, in fact TPPK is not used because of chicken ..... TPPK-script with Burzia-do-kanyon and 100% pierce --> chickenhack

Chicken and TPPK both existed long before they went "public", I only remember TPPK becoming alot more popular in 1.09 or 1.10. Regardless, TPPK is used alot of the time to pk people who would otherwise get away because they use chicken or save&exit.

 

[ADSL]

Chicken and TPPK both existed long before they went "public", I only remember TPPK becoming alot more popular in 1.09 or 1.10. Regardless, TPPK is used alot of the time to pk people who would otherwise get away because they use chicken or save&exit.

I dont see your point, fact is tppk wasnt created to kill chicken hackers, chicken was created to escape tppk.

 

[Luckymofo]

I play hardcore, but no matter how good you are, lag always owns all

 

[TheSatan]

I dont see your point, fact is tppk wasnt created to kill chicken hackers, chicken was created to escape tppk.

TPPK has been around forever, manual or not. Chicken wasnt created just to escape TPPK. You can set it to leave at hostile or when you're at a certain % of life. Its there for lazy people who want to play hardcore on easy mode.

The FACT is TPPK is used to kill chickens now. Chicken was created to quite simply prevent your char from dying. How is any legitimate PK supposed to kill people who use chicken who insta-quit on hostile or insta-leave when at 30% life? Exactly, you cant unless you get that 1 shot. Thats where TPPK comes in.

They're both lame.

 

[ADSL]

TPPK has been around forever, manual or not. Chicken wasnt created just to escape TPPK. You can set it to leave at hostile or when you're at a certain % of life. Its there for lazy people who want to play hardcore on easy mode.

Its a given chicken wasnt created ONLY to escape tppk

The FACT is TPPK is used to kill chickens now. Chicken was created to quite simply prevent your char from dying. How is any legitimate PK supposed to kill people who use chicken who insta-quit on hostile or insta-leave when at 30% life? Exactly, you cant unless you get that 1 shot. Thats where TPPK comes in.

Sure its used to kill those now, just as they are used kill everyone else, but since tppk was used long before chicken, an argument stating people use tppk to counter chicken is not true.

They're both lame.

No argument here.

 

[TheSatan]

Sure its used to kill those now, just as they are used kill everyone else, but since tppk was used long before chicken, an argument stating people use tppk to counter chicken is not true.

I'm sure it was discovered and subsequently used to kill those who would have otherwise save&exit, which I already said in my original post. I'm not implying that TPPK was invented to counter chicken, but it definately is now. Just as chicken is used to counter TPPK. And yeah, everyone that doesnt use either is also included.

 

[ADSL]

I'm sure it was discovered and subsequently used to kill those who would have otherwise save&exit, which I already said in my original post. I'm not implying that TPPK was invented to counter chicken, but it definately is now. Just as chicken is used to counter TPPK. And yeah, everyone that doesnt use either is also included.

Then i guess we almost agree, only problem i have left is why you keep mentionen save&exit in the same sentence as chicken... It is not the same thing, and its not even close.

 

[TheSatan]

They're the same in terms of saving a character. Except one doesnt require you to even pay attention.

 

[Barrynor]

and you ask ME if im only here to disagree? tsk tsk... besides, there wasn't much to discover, TPPK is a script that sends packets to the server emulating casting, going to town and hostiling within the least possible time between the actions.

 

[AgentMarth]

Ok while I understand that chicken is used to escape TPPK, I do not understand the idea of TPPK being used to PK chicken users. By that logic, you would have to know that the other random person in the game that you have most likely never even met before was already using chicken. Or that everyone uses chicken and that then gives you the right to TPPK them.

If someone were to hostile me in a public game, I should have the right to save and exit to save my character, or at least 10 seconds before I could meet the Deeds screen. If I feel I could handle the threat, I'd maybe take the gamble, and stand my ground. And no, they are not the same, one can be done legitimately, the other is a damn hack.

Either way, there is a huge difference in joining a game, going hostile right away, then hunting someone down and PK them with skill and luck, then someone hearing that dreaded sound instantly followed by the deeds screen. A 10 second delay gives you more than enough time to decide what to due, but .5 of a second does not.

More people would probably play HC if it weren't for TPPK, reason being, you could play public games a bit more safely. There is still hot TP's and the likes, but thats when your never the first to go in.

 

[Master Zap]

chicken or the egg , who cares, Cheats ruin the game

tppk =Scum of d2 , thanks for no pubby runs , so much for the social aspect and dont give me the in prvt bs that requires you meet some folks first to become prvt.

Chicken= Go back to Sc we dont want you here. Learn to play the game and come back.

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