Hypocrites?

Fearox

Diabloii.Net Member
Hypocrites?

What about people who claim to hate cheaters/cheats/dupers/dupes/whatever, but still trade for duped runes when they know they're dupes? Hypocrites or what?
Yes, the "No, I had nooo idea that this cham/zod-rune was a dupe"-argument seems to be the way some people clear the conscience (does the low trade values for high runes ring a bell maybe?). And of course the really bad arguments: "Someone else duped the runes - I'm not guilty of anything!" and "Everyone else does!".
I have my opinion about this, and I think it's hypocrisy. Even though I badly want an Ohm and a Sur for a Bramble I will not build the armor until I've found the runes myself. If I never find them (and if none of my friends find them) I will never get a Bramble.
Even though upgrading the runes make them permanent I don't think it's ok and more "legit" than actually duping the runes.

What do you think?
 

Killfrenzy

Diabloii.Net Member
i admire your dedication Fearox. unfortunately unless you are like fearox here dupes are very difficult to escape if you want high end gear. lets face it alot of the items on our very trade forums are likely dupes!

I myself am nowhere near as dedicated as this. i trade with people, even some of the lil channel freaks if they arent pissing me off too much... Back in 09 when hacks were rampant, i eventually drew the line at blatently hacked items (like the bvalors ans such), and refused to use these, but i still consider runes fair game
 

Dredd

D3 Off Topic Moderator
I don't know if I could call someone who claims to be legit and yet trades for runes to be a hypocrite. I trade for things all the time and I can never be 100% certain that the items I receive aren't duped. However, I keep track of those items and when I sell them myself, I always tell a potential buyer that some of my goods aren't self-found and therefore I cannot guarantee their authenticity.

As far as taking advantage of this latest mass-dupe spree with runes, well ... unfortunately there is very little one can do about it. Runes are a major ladder currency (and much better than sojs IMO). I would be very reluctant to stop trading them -- due to their convenience.

I understand your concerns though. I don't make runewords for myself or a possible buyer unless the runes used were self-found. As a result, I have yet to own my own Enigma or BOTD even though I've actually held all the runes through trading. :(
 

Dreamsmith

Diabloii.Net Member
Fearox said:
What about people who claim to hate cheaters/cheats/dupers/dupes/whatever, but still trade for duped runes when they know they're dupes? Hypocrites or what?
If they indeed know they are dupes, then yes, they are hypocrites. But how would they know this?

Fearox said:
Yes, the "No, I had nooo idea that this cham/zod-rune was a dupe"-argument seems to be the way some people clear the conscience (does the low trade values for high runes ring a bell maybe?).
The widespread duping of runes depresses the value of all runes, duped or not. Therefore, the low trade value for a high rune does not tell you anything.

You can't trade for anything at all and be certain it's not a dupe. That doesn't make you a hypocrite for trading. Heck, I picked up a Kuko Shakaku someone tossed down in town during a Baal run recently. I assume they found it and just didn't want it, but for all I know it's a dupe. Does this make me a hypocrite?

I do use some items I didn't find myself. If, based on that, you think I'm a hypocrite, so be it. If that's the case, your opinion is too extreme to bother worrying about in any case... I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
 

Fearox

Diabloii.Net Member
What I mean is: how possible is it that a legit Zod is traded away? I guess everyone knows about the rune duping spree by now, but as far as I know there hasn't been any item duping spree (yet). This makes runes special.
 

Dredd

D3 Off Topic Moderator
Fearox said:
What I mean is: how possible is it that a legit Zod is traded away?
NL it is very possible that the zod could be a legit one. The odds I'm sure are about 50/50. I don't play NL anymore so I'm not much of an expert here.

On ladder, every popular rune should be suspect, particularly a zod.

I agree that runes are a special case but again, there is very little one can do about it. To refuse to barter in runes puts a huge roadblock before you in terms of optimizing your characters' gear. There is simply no way to tell if a rune you received through a trade is duped or not.

It's very different from other duped items. I'm always aware of what is on the No Trade list in the trade forums. I never accept those things in trade nor do I try to pawn them off myself. But runes ... there is just no way to know for sure.
 

Dreamsmith

Diabloii.Net Member
Fearox said:
What I mean is: how possible is it that a legit Zod is traded away?
Quite. That's the first thing I'd do if I found one. A lot of people are willing to trade great things for one, whereas I have virtually no use for it, certainly no use that would be a tenth as useful as what I could trade it for...
 

Necrasaro

Diabloii.Net Member
I'd trade off a Zod for the simple fact that I dont have a char that would benifit from BOTD.

I see your point, however in order for people to get some of the runewords you need to trade.

I was alot like you in 1.09 I didnt trade, I didnt go to public games i just stayed with my rather large group of gaming friends. We had enough to have full cow games going constantly so it wasnt a big deal.

In 1.10 we all still play but I started out on Ladder trading and yes I've traded for the runes to make Enigma (tho they are still not cheap lol)tho I did find my Hoto runes myself.

If it was something like Hexs and obviously duped uber rares ya I'd steer clear, but the fact of the matter is you cannot know 100% that a rune is duped, the longer ladder goes on the more of these runes will be legit.
 

Origin

Diabloii.Net Member
but according the the chance of finding a zod there are supposed to be like 5 out there.. so you can be pretty sure anyone you see is a dupe no?
 

schlip

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree with the original post 100%.

I just try to have fun with the runes I found, and really don't want to be one of those elite players by using BOTDs and Enignas. I think it is a test of one's skill to make a good char with only reasonably achievable gears. This challenge is more fun than to mow down all the monsters in one pass.

But if one only use these (duped) runes as currency, I think it is acceptable - as long as they don't affect the stats of your char. Like the NL sojs, they could even be helpful.

Basically it comes down to this - if you claim yourself to be legit, then when in doubt, don't use that suspicous item! or just play.. you don't have to hate the cheaters or not to be one.
 

Wuhan_Clan

Diabloii.Net Member
The point brought up about trading duped items as currency is a slightly different issue. In 1.09, I had a hacked character that held all the duped hacked items (uswest: hexes, wrings etc.) simply to make trading easier. Hexes were basically SoJs and everything had a hex value. Yet at the same time, I frown upon the use of hacked items. But I wouldn't ever use them for normal gameplay.


Regarding duped items (nonhacked items but still duped), if you want to be completely legit, I think you would actually be cheating yourself. The reason behind trading is that you want a certain item, but you all your efforts to find that item resulted in finding different but still valuable items. I want a Shako, but the only things I find are Skullders and Occy. Duped or not, if I traded for the Shako, I would still be rewarding myself for my efforts. And because I will probably never know if that Shako was duped or not, it isn't going to make much of a difference.

But there must be a difference right? This difference is this:
Let's consider the recent rune duping sprees on the ladder. You legitimately find a bunch of godly elite uniques, which combined, is worth a high rune that was also found legitimately. However, the duping spree deflates the value of the runes and now you find that you only need to trade one of your uniques for that rune. Well, knowing that the rune is duped, you have three choices.
1. you want to play completely legit and don't trade but you might never end up with that Enigma or BotD or whatever
2. you pay the deflated price of 1 elite unique for the duped rune
3. to make yourself feel better about trading for a duped rune, you pay all of your elite uniques since this is the value for a legit rune

If you chose the 3rd option, I don't think you should call that person a hypocrit. Although he acknowledges using a duped rune, the effort spent getting that rune (the combined effort of finding all those uniques) was the same as if the rune were legit.

This is a different way to look at this situation.
BTW, if anyone cares, I never traded runes on ladder and the best rune I found was an Ohm.
 

lazyassdre

Diabloii.Net Member
I didn't have time to read all the other posts (hafta get to school!), but Fearox, you are probably many people's hero. However, you can choose to only use runes you can find, or you can trade for a possible dupe. Key word being possible, the chances of trading for a legit rune is improbable, but not impossible. However, since you don't know, you can choose whichever platform you wish. I for one, am somewhat of a pessimist, seeing as how whatever happens to the rest of the world, I must change accordingly. I honestly think that even if 2-3 thousand people chose not to trade for runes, about a jillion more will trade/buy for them (I like fake numbers). Seeing as how D2 is not a democracy, and sort of have no vote on what happens to it, you might as well go on and trade for those runes and have fun. And if you're playing ladder, you should enjoy it while you can until the ladder resets.

And for those of you who say that a few thousand people CAN change something, I agree, whether it be in politics, laws and bills passed, etc. But not in D2.

Bottom line: Go on and use the runes whether they be duped or not, it is a game, and the runes are obviously not bugged, so go on and have fun.
 

Qroft

Diabloii.Net Member
You know, it doesn't MATTER whether the particular rune you trade for is duped or not. The fact that the market is saturated with them drives the price down. If I found a Zod, no way in HELL I'd trade it, because its trade value isn't worth the effort it takes to make or find it due to all the dupes.

The upshot of this is, it is NEVER worth it to trade self-found runes away, because you will never get what they are actually worth (in terms of how difficult they are to obtain legimately), and just because someone traded you a rune for your crap it doesn't matter if the rune was legit or not, because if it weren't for the dupes, your crap wouldn't be worth the rune to begin with.

As for me, I don't trade at all. Although I do have a few close friends that I give items to or accept them from.
 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
For those who said: relax and have fun, how bout we all learn to dupe and we all have the same "godly" things. What's the point then when we all reach this level? Imagine us all coming to trade: you BOTD me BOTD you another BOTD me another BOTD you 10 BOTD's me 25 BOTD's, spontaneously you throw 10k of your modest collection of Zod's,I respond with 25 Kg's of my mighty Ber's, now you are pissed off and you reach out for your ultimate: CS 1.6 Shotgun and blow us all away :surprise: (your dupe technique's are way beyond ours in this case, no retaliation from us, you are finally on top :winner: have a :drink: )

I see many "showoffs" that come to trade and laugh at your items, but actually now they are deadly bored having 1xxxxxx pieces of BOTD. Sad they are


Hey killfrenzy do you know were is Steels road in Brampton, I lived there.
 

Fearox

Diabloii.Net Member
Interesting answers everybody. But I think I didn't make myself clear about one thing: there is a huge difference between runes and other items (I'm talking ladder here). If you trade for a Windforce in ladder I'm quite sure it's legit. Why? Because, as far as I know, there hasn't been any duping of weapons, armor and such yet. Runes have been duped quite badly. Why? Because they can be upgraded and permanented. Of course the "permanenting" increases the chance that the runes you buy are actually legit (in a technical way - the runes don't disappear). Still this is not a legit rune in my opinion.
I guess most people don't care whether a rune (or other item) is legit or not. People who's into serious trading doesn't care at all, it seems. Maybe the real traders care more about the trading (the action) than the items? I can't understand that, since I really, really hate to trade.
My point about "Zods should be very few on the realms" is that there wouldn't be as many Breath of the dyings out there without the duping. I mean: I can go out there and trade a Breath... right now without any problems. And it shouldn't be that way. It's a fantastic runeword, but it was not meant to be as common as it is right now.
 

Mr Evil

Diabloii.Net Member
Fearox said:
What I mean is: how possible is it that a legit Zod is traded away? I guess everyone knows about the rune duping spree by now, but as far as I know there hasn't been any item duping spree (yet). This makes runes special.
As far as you know there haven't been any item duping sprees yet. So you trade for items. However, consider this:

Fearox said:
does the low trade values for high runes ring a bell maybe?
Now, maybe it's just my imagination, but I've noticed a sudden drop in price of several high-end items recently. Would that be enough to make you stop trading completely in order to remain 'legitimate'? Or do you continue trading, knowing that there is no way you can ever be sure that the items you trade for are duped or not?

BTW, if I found a Zod myself, the first thing I would do is stick it in my ethereal Diggler. But if I didn't have an ethereal Diggler I would trade it away as it's no use to me.
 

Dreamsmith

Diabloii.Net Member
Qroft said:
If I found a Zod, no way in HELL I'd trade it, because its trade value isn't worth the effort it takes to make or find it due to all the dupes.

The upshot of this is, it is NEVER worth it to trade self-found runes away, because you will never get what they are actually worth (in terms of how difficult they are to obtain legimately)
But that's not a meaningful measure of value. The fact of the matter is, even now, a Zod has a much greater trade value to me than what it's actually worth, in terms of how useful it is to me. Maybe, just maybe, if I found a six-socket Hydra Bow somewhere, my 'zon could get some use out of it. Other than that, I have literally no use at all for it. If I didn't trade it, I'd sell it to Charsi for the money -- at least that would keep the useless rune from taking up space in my stash.

There are many runes that also fall into this category. They are utterly useless to me except as trading fodder. How difficult it is to obtain something has no real impact on its value. For example, how difficult do you think it would be to obtain a turd produced by the President of the United States. Pretty difficult, no? How valuable would this be to you? Frankly, the only value it would have for me would be is if I could find someone willing to buy it or trade something useful for it. Likewise, many runes have no value at all except for their trade value, regardless of their rarity. Only in commerce, i.e. trading, does rarity impact value. IF you are going to trade something, THEN and ONLY THEN does its rarity determine or at least impact its value. You contradict yourself when you insist something is not worth trading because of how rare it is -- how rare it is only impacts its value if you're going to trade it, otherwise it's irrelevant.
 

Qroft

Diabloii.Net Member
Dreamsmith said:
You contradict yourself when you insist something is not worth trading because of how rare it is -- how rare it is only impacts its value if you're going to trade it, otherwise it's irrelevant.
Well I suppose it's different for me because I don't trade at all (unless someone is just dying for something I have no use for like maybe some PK gear that is worthless in PvM - I once traded 100 pscs for a couple SoJs, thats my only trade so far), so I don't measure worth by how much I can get for the rune, but by what I can do with it and how much effort it took to find. Zod is far from the "best" rune, but if I found one I guarantee I would find a use for it before I would ever think of trading it. And the same goes for every rune down the line. Maybe if I could outfit two or three entire characters with elite gear for a Zod, then I'd think of trading it, but certainly not at the "duped" value.
 
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