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How to use frenzy?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by caucasion, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. caucasion

    caucasion IncGamers Member

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    How to use frenzy?

    I just started using frenzy, coming from an old school ww play. The issue is im not sure how to use frenzy. Right now i have double swing (lvl6) on my left click and frenzy (currently 1pt) on my right click. do i use frenzy then doubleswing or just use frenzy over and over?
     
  2. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Banned

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    Note that double swing does not increase damage, only attack rating. If you switch to frenzy, you will lose the attack rating bonus but gain extra frenzy damage.

    IMO frenzy is the better skill. Double swing is effective if you're out of mana and need to keep swinging to cast lifetap or something.

    I keep frenzy as my left-click skill, then switch my right between other skills I like to use (teleport, berzerk, leap, find item, warcries, etc.) I never use double swing.
     
  3. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier IncGamers Member

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    The simpliest/safest way to use Frenzy is War Cry and hack your emenies to death.
    You don't have to max War Cry, with +skill gears, level 16+ War Cry will be ok. With War Cry, you also rule in Chaos Sanctuary.
    Before you have enough ias to reach the last or 2nd last speed breakpoint of Frenzy, you may want to use double swing. The key is to have a lot of crushing blow, and prohaps an Atma's Scarab. Use frenzy only to gain speed bonus, then switch to double swing for killing (warcry, frenzy 2-4 hits, then ds some seconds, then repeat). Ignore target defense weapons will do wonder.
    You can focus on battle order/weapon mastery/frenzy first, before further bumping up double swing/taunt.
    Before you find a decend indestructable weapon, you'll have to go back to town to repair weapons frequently though.



     
  4. caucasion

    caucasion IncGamers Member

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    i noticed i had to repair already. i was actually surprised that i held my own vs mephiesto as well as i did.

    when is frenzys break point to be the same speed as double swing



     
  5. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Banned

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    Frenzy needs massive IAS to match double swing. With about 80% IAS you will hit 5.5 fps. That means 40% on weapon, laying of hands (20%) and highlords (20%).

    Frenzy will do well with leeching attacks to keep you from dying.
     
  6. caucasion

    caucasion IncGamers Member

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    check ur pm



     
  7. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    Double Swing will always be faster than Frenzy, because it adds a set value to speed ON TOP OF whatever else you may have (for some reason, I keep thinking DS has 40% ias built-in, but I could be wrong). Even if you charge up a slvl 40 Frenzy (47% IAS), if you then switched to Double Swing you'd get DS's built-in IAS on top of Frenzy's, taking you up even faster still.

    Unless you max out your attack speed, you'll always Double Swing faster than you Frenzy. It's also cheaper, mana-wise, but Frenzy adds the run/walk boost and a bigger ED bonus.



     
  8. avm

    avm IncGamers Member

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    Keep frenzy on you right click, and just hold down the right mouse button. Make sure NOT to target any monsters. That way you'll just run around and automatically attack everything. Bind warcry to a key, and if you run into a tough spot, just switch to it without releasing the right mouse button, then switch back. That way everything around you gets stunned real quick, and you barely stop attacking to do it.

    You can also use taunt vs ranged attackers the same way - say you're in the middle of a pack, and some archers start shooting at you. You can switch to warcry, stun the pack you're in, switch to taunt, get all the archers to come over, and switch back to frenzy, all without letting up the right mouse button. Yeah, you can't see the monster's life bars, that's the only real downside.

    Double swing is fast, but frenzy has a nice damage bonus and imo it's not worth the time to switch to double swing after frenzying up. The only times it *may* be worth it (but not requried, really) is if you're looking to apply some CB really fast, or if you're out of mana. At level 9, double swing doesn't use mana so it may be convenient to use around ghost packs.

    I found, however, that even with no mana leech (low grief main hand, azurewrath offhand) I could frenzy without any danger of running out of mana. When ghosts showed up, most of the time I wouldn't need to switch, either.

    Btw, I highly recommend getting some source of damage to mana - for example, I was using angelics (20% on the ammy), and it helped me warcry pretty much without any concern for the mana cost. It works out nicely - if you're swarmed and getting hit - which is when you need to warcry - you're almost guaranteed to have the mana for it. I really missed the angelics after I switched to highlords + dual ravens, not for the AR but for the dtm...
     
  9. Fuzzier

    Fuzzier IncGamers Member

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    I cannot agree with you, DSwing IS worthy!
    Damage over time is more important than damage per hit.
    6fpa Frenzy delivers 20% less hits over time than 5fpa DSwing, so if you have a lot of ed%, then until you get decent levels, Frenzy CANNOT beat DSwing in damage output or CB.
     
  10. PFS

    PFS IncGamers Member

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    For 20 Poimts in Skill and 20 Points in synergy:

    Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
    Frenzy: 345%ED, 233%AR

    For MAX Damage (ignoring +skills):
    Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
    Frenzy: 505%ED, 233%AR, 20% Magic Damage ('course you ahve to sacrafice some Shout for this one.)

    Sure you should pump points in DS either way for the Frenzy synergy but obviously it will quite quickly do less damage than frenzy - particulary since the AR for DS is about half that of Frenzy.

    But unless you're making some LLD char (in which case frenzy is kinda out due to level requirement) then going for a high damage DS until you can get a high damage Frenzy is nuts as you are burning synergy points as Bash does not help Frenzy.



     
  11. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    You forgot a few things.

    First off, if I only have ~40 points to spend, I'm not investing 20 in Bash and 20 in Double Swing, I'm investing 20 points into Bash, 1 point into Double Swing, and 20 points into Battle Cry. Let's compare that to a 40 point Frenzy.

    20Bash/1DS/20BC- 200% ED, 2 mana per swing, effective +858% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 958 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy damage, and a faster attack with no need to charge up.
    20Frenzy/20BC- 198% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +2675% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 2775 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy defense, and 47-171% FR/W.
    20Frenzy/20DS- 345% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +233% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 333 base AR), and 47-161% FR/W.

    The DoubleSwing/BattleCry rig clearly outpaces the Frenzy/BattleCry rig here, with the same skill point investment (actually, 2 fewer points invested), less mana per swing, more damage per swing, sufficient AR to hit 90+% of the time in Hell, and a faster attack with no charge up. All Frenzy offers it he faster run/walk, which is as much a nuisance as it is a help. Both rigs wind up blowing the Frenzy/DS rig out of the water, because while it has more ED, it has much lower AR, more mana requirements, and a slower attack (that has to be charged up, to boot). And when you consider that you can charge Frenzy and then switch to DS, DS begins to really blow Frenzy's attack speed out of the water.

    Also, if I want to synergize Double Swing, there's absolutely positively NO WAY that I'm investing in DS itself (after I hit slvl 9 with +skills). I'm putting points in Weapon Mastery, so if I want a 60 point DS, I'll do 20 Bash, 20 Battle Cry, 20 Weapon Mastery. Let's compare THAT to a 60-point Frenzy rig with 1 in WM, shall we?

    20Bash/20BC/20WM- 412% ED (factoring in the Deadly Strike percentage from Mastery), 2358% effective AR, -44% monster damage, 2 mana per.
    20Frenzy/20DS/20Taunt- 552% ED (factoring in Deadly Strike percentage from mastery), 261% AR, 3 mana per.

    Once again, Double Swing comes close in terms of damage output, blows Frenzy out of the water in terms of AR and speed, and is cheaper, while Frenzy offers faster run/walk and that's it. And remember, if you charge up Frenzy and then double swing, it becomes even faster still, and if you get Double Swing to slvl 9, it no longer costs *ANY* mana, which makes you mana-burn proof.

    If you spend the exact same number of skill points INTELLIGENTLY synergizing both Frenzy and Double Swing (meaning synergizing DS with Bash, Weapon Mastery, and Battle Cry, while keeping Double Swing's level at slvl 9 or below, as well as synergizing Frenzy with slvl 1 Mastery, damage synergies, and possibly Battle Cry as well), then both Double Swing and Frenzy will actually be very comparable in terms of damage output per second, while Double Swing gets a huge bonus in the ease-of-use department, as well as another boost when you factor in supplemental damage (such as Open Wounds, Crushing Blow, or elemental damage from charms or gear).

    The only time Frenzy is superior to Double Swing is if you spend 80+ points on it (20 on Frenzy, 20 on DS, 20 on Taunt, 20 on Battle Cry, 1 in Mastery). And that's only because Double Swing eventually runs out of synergies before Frenzy does. Point-for-point, though, Double Swing keeps pace and actually frequently outshines Frenzy.

    Edit: If anyone wants, I could actually crunch some actual real-life numbers comparing the maximum damage outputs of various Double Swing and Frenzy builds by number of skill points spent. Perhaps that would better illustrate my point.



     
  12. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Banned

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    No offense, but that seems way off-base. DS comes nowhere near Frenzy in terms of damage and attack rating. They are not "comparable" as you say. 1000 points in base damage makes a big difference. The only advantage to DS is that it doens't require synergy and that it swings with no mana.

    DS is meant to be a supplemental skill to frenzy. In order to make it stronger than frenzy, you have to boost a bunch of other skills (WC, Bash, etc) to make it even rearly as effective. Saying DS is better than Frenzy is like saying that Ice Bolt is better than Frozen Orb, or Max Teeth is the best Bone skill, or Ice Blast is better Tornado.
     
  13. avm

    avm IncGamers Member

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    A good analysis SSoG, but I think that while mathematically it seems sound, it's a little bit contrived. The "effective" AR numbers you provide assume that everything is constantly BC'ed, which is a considerable nuisance to do in practice, especially with certain monster types that don't all converge on you (for example imps, archers, etc). Also, BC'ing isn't "free" - it takes time that you could in fact use to kill. How long it takes is also dependent on FCR... which is yet another factor.

    Also, with reasonable gear, you can easily get AR high enough (without using angelics) that you're not very concerned about reducing enemy defense. So, the 800% "effective" AR is pretty much overkill. BC is pretty much a boss skill or "I'm in an area that's too tough for me" skill. I haven't found it to be worth the time investment during for example MF runs. Also, if you go with DS as the main skill, you're pretty much forced to BC most everything (or accept a ~70% hit rate) since your base attack rating with the skill will not be very high.

    That's what I mean - with half respectable gear (NOT "uber"), the third setup will have plenty enough AR to hit and has roughly 75% more overall damage than the other 2. Also, you will have a lower-level BC, since it's a pre-req to WC which you should be getting anyway. At level 1, BC reduces defense by 50%, so by your calclulations that would give the 3rd setup ~500% "effective" AR - which I contend wouldn't really be needed anyway.

    Fair enough... though I still think maxing BC is overkill. 1 point gets -50% defense, 20 points get -**%. 1pt wonder imo, unless you really cared about the -damage. More on 60 pt Frenzy below...

    Huh? The calculation for 412% ed with DS is correct. But there is no way you'd want to do 20/20/20 frenzy/DS/taunt. You'd do 20WM instead of taunt or DS (or rather 10 taunt 10 DS 20WM, but that's irrelevant). Even though the WM gives a lower% ed per point, it gives critical strike, resulting in the following:

    20 frenzy = 185%, 20 synergy = 160%, 20 mast = 123% and 21% crit. So, you have 468% pure ed per hit. Each hit does 568% listed weapon damage, before crit. With crit, it's 568% * 1.21 = 687% avg damage, or 587% ed. And, we're looking at 413% AR, not 261%.

    I would say that 412% vs 587% is quite a significant difference. Again, if you want to factor in BC, then you should factor in a lvl 1 BC for frenzy, which will even things out a lot more in that department. And with frenzy, you can easily not use BC while with DS you really need it.


    Bad idea, imo. If you charge up frenzy, that's I think 3 full frenzy cycles before it's at max speed. Meaning, unless it's synergized, you're wasting time charging it. Not to mention wasting skillpoints trying to synergize both.

    As I said, from personal experience, mana burn did not affect my frenzy adversely most of the time, even though I had ZERO leech, and no dtm. A bit of leech or dtm probably would eliminate it as a problem altogether.

    What's the exact build you're proposing here? I have a hard time seeing both synergized to a reasonable level AND having level 20 BO and having a couple points left over for WC.

    Ease of use wise, I acknowledge that ymmv, but I haven't found frenzy's FRW to be anything but convenient. If I had it on left click, I'd want to pull my hair out, but on right click... especially with an act 1 vigor merc... let's just say those 20 imps never know what hit 'em :)


    Sorry for a bit of a long post. Ultimately, what you're saying makes sense, and having read it I think you could make a very good DS-based build. It is a skill that I've perhaps underestimated, and I agree that it's the way to go if you want to, for example, apply CB to a boss which is most likely going to be BC'ed anyway. But overall, between the FRW and the higher damage, and the lack of a need for BC on anything and everything to hit it, I think frenzy still wins handily as a general-use pvm skill.



     
  14. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Banned

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    @AVM: Excellent response. This is all the stuff I wanted to say but didn't have the patience to type.
     
  15. avm

    avm IncGamers Member

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    Thanks. I didn't expect it was going to be so long when I started typing it, or I probably wouldn't have done it :p

    One other thing I just thought of, which didn't occur to me earlier. As a pvm barb, you're probably looking at a fair bit of +skills - 3 torch, 2(4 combat) from arreats, maybe a couple more from a weapon/anni/etc. Adding those points to DS or Bash doesn't help much. Adding them to frenzy does. In other words, +skill gives more of a damage boost to a Frenzy build than it does to a DS build.



     
  16. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    Did you not read that post? Whether the numbers SEEM off-base or not, they're correct. Every single damage value I posted is exactly correct.

    Frenzy might *SEEM* like a better killer, but the reality is that Double Swing is easily its equal. Both have things that they do better than the other, but if you think that Frenzy blows DS out of the water, you're mistaken.

    Very good points, although it has balances. Yes, it takes time to cast BC, but I'd argue no more time than it takes to charge up Frenzy. You're absolutely right, though, that Double Swing barbs find pesky critters like Imps and Archers far more annoying than Frenzy Barbs do. Of course, there's a balance- Double Swing Barbs chew up bosses faster thanks to the greater -% enemy defense, combined with the faster attack speed (meaning a lot more crushing blows per second).

    Well, if you want to argue that +233% AR on the second rig is sufficient, that's fine... I'll take 19 of those points out of Battle Cry and pop them into Weapon Mastery, instead. Compare that third Frenzy rig with 1 point in Weapon Mastery to a Double Swing rig with 20 points in Weapon Mastery. I emphasised AR in that 40-point DS, but if you'd rather, you could just as easily emphasise damage and still come out ahead.

    20 in Bash, 20 in Weapon Mastery, 1 in Double Swing = 412% effective ED (once you factor in the Critical Strike), 195% AR.
    20 points in Double Swing, 20 in Frenzy, 1 in Weapon Mastery = 387% effective ED (once you factor in the Critical Strike), +233% AR.

    Again, no matter what your priorities are, there is always a way for Double Swing to perform just as well as Frenzy does against them. As you can see in this example, it's possible for a 40 point DS to actually deal *MORE* damage than Frenzy (and at a higher speed, to boot).

    The -damage is significant. Also, while it's possible to get a good chance to hit with a slvl1 Battle Cry, slvl20 lets you get a BETTER chance to hit, and doesn't require any gear- so you can ditch that Angelics and all those AR charms that you'd otherwise have to wear. That makes room in your inventory for other charms.

    Another solid point, and this one emphasizes the real weakness of Double Swing compared to Frenzy- eventually you run out of ways to invest your skill points to increase its damage. However, it should be noted that while 412% ED vs. 587% ED is a significant difference, there's the speed disparity, too. If you deal 100 base damage with 412% ED at 5 fpa, that's 2560 damage per second. If you deal 100 base damage with 587% ED at 6 fpa, that's 2863 damage per second. Not that large of a disparity, after all. Additional sources of off-weapon ED (of which you'll have PLENTY, ranging from Might Mercs to simple stat-point investments to +% damage to undead/demons to potentially Fortitude or other off-weapon sources of gear-based ED) will only skew that comparison in favor of Double Swing. Crushing Blow and elemental damage will also further skew the comparison. And a Double Swing Barb is more than capable of getting 1, or even TWO frames faster than a Frenzy Barb- for instance, wielding 10-speed Axes and with a slvl 20 Frenzy, 25% IAS will get a Barb to a 7fpa with Frenzy and 5fpa with Double Swing. The damage comparison in THAT case will be even less flattering still.

    That wasn't all on one build- I was comparing a 60-point Frenzy build to a 60-point Double Swing build. Two different builds.



     
  17. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Banned

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    Your initial calculations were not correct, as avm pointed out. You didn't consider deadly/critical and other mods that affect damage. Besides the required build to use DS would be completely wack -- topheavy on skills required to boost DS's basic damage.

    Creating a build centered around DS is less balanced and less powerful than a basic frenzy barb. I'm not saying frenzy blows it out of the water, but you admit yourself that the damage is less, albeit "comparable" (which it is not). DS is useful only in certain specific situations, not as a primary attack. The only way I could see this being the main skill is if you were playing untwinked and wanted to max DS first.

    Perhaps the reason you think DS is stronger is that your calcuations are incorrect. Damage is not calculated the same way for each skill, even if they are both melee.
     
  18. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    The calculations in the first post absolutely *WERE* correct. Point out what calculation is wrong and explain why it's wrong. The numbers are absolutely, positively, 100% right. They've been triple-checked. Avm didn't say that my numbers were incorrect, he simply responded with other numbers for me to consider- at which point I presented even more numbers for him to consider, in turn.

    He wanted me to also consider Frenzy with maxed Weapon Mastery, a different setup than I used in my first post. I *did* consider those numbers, and in turn presented him with attack speed figures for HIM to consider. I computed some basic damage-per-second numbers in a frenzy-favoring situation (no stat-based or gear-based off-weapon ED), and showed that the Double Swing numbers were within 12%- and remember, this is with a Frenzy-friendly environment. I then discussed how putting those numbers in an environment that was equally suited for both DS *and* Frenzy (or better still, in a DS-friendly environment) would actually skew those damage output numbers in favor of Double Swing.

    If you think my numbers are incorrect anywhere, then please feel free to point out where and I'll walk you through them to demonstrate that they are, in fact, correct. The only errors that may exist are rounding errors because I was simply too lazy to truncate my values after every step. That sort of rounding error wouldn't account for a more than 1% swing in the numbers one way or the other, but if you're absolutely convinced that my numbers are wrong, I could walk you through them step by step using the appropriate rounding values.

    Yes, it would be topheavy on skills required to boost DS's basic damage. SO WOULD A FRENZY BUILD. Why do Frenzy builds invest in Taunt? Simply to boost Frenzy's damage. Why do Frenzy Builds invest in DS? Simply to boost Frenzy's damage. If anything, I would say that a DS build has *FEWER* skills that serve no purpose but to boost damage than a Frenzy build does, because Frenzy has two synergies to DS's one. So if DS is topheavy on skills to boost its basic damage, then Frenzy is even MORE topheavy. Basically, your main criticism of DS here is actually an even bigger criticism of Frenzy.

    This is simply and unequivocably UNTRUE. If you "synergize" Double Swing with Battle Cry, it becomes MORE balanced than Frenzy- not only does Battle Cry boost a barb's damage output, it also reduces his damage intake, which makes him far more balanced offensively and defensively. Unless a Frenzy Barb actively uses that Taunt that he's investing so heavily in, Frenzy is far more unbalanced- focused entirely on offensive output... and if the Frenzy Barb DOES use Taunt, then he spends so much time casting that he becomes unbalanced defensively. Double Swing has less top-end damage if you're willing to sink 80 skill points into it, but it actually deals every bit as much damage with 60 skill points invested, and has more defensive balance in the process.

    Also, your comment about playing untwinked and maxing DS first just shows that you aren't paying attention. I've already said that the reason most people think that DS is a weak skill is because they waste skill points maxing it. My DS Barbs always invest between 1 and 5 points in DS (depending on how many +skills I have planned), and that's it. Maxing DS is wasting 15 skill points that could have been better spent boosting its damage. A Frenzy build would suck, too, if you wasted 15 points in a skill that did absolutely, positively, no good. Put 15 points into Whirlwind and see how good of a Frenzy Barb you can make.

    Damage isn't calculated the same way for each skill- Hunger, for instance, has a final modifier of -75% that applies to final physical damage. Strafe and Multishot both have global modifiers that apply -25% to ALL final damage. Vengeance is very particular in what it DOES and DOES NOT convert (for instance- it converts on-weapon ED, but not Damage +X). With that said, the vast majority of melee skills calculate damage exactly the same way. Frenzy and Double Swing are no different.

    Final Weapon Damage = (Base Weapon Damage * On-Weapon ED) + damage modifiers (aka +min, +max damage)
    Final Physical Damage = Final Weapon Damage * (1 + Stat-based ED + Skill-Based ED + off-weapon gear-based ED)
    Modified Weapon Damage = Final Weapon Damage * [2 - {(1 - DS%) * (1 - CS%)}]
    Final Total Damage = Modified Weapon Damage + Gear or Skill Based Elemental Damage
    Damage per Second = Final Total Damage * (# of Attacks per Second) * (Chance to Hit)

    That's the basic string of formulas for calculating the damage output of both Double Swing and Frenzy (I didn't indicate all the places you're supposed to truncate, but those are the simple un-rounded calculations). Same formula both times. That Damage Per Second number can be further modified by factoring in resists, but since DS and Frenzy both deal the same type of damage (physical), resists are in this case irrelevant, since they'll affect both skills equally.

    It's a little bit unconventional, but I promise you, a 60-point Double Swing build will be every bit as powerful as a 60-point Frenzy build- perhaps even moreso, if you consider the benefits gained from the slvl20+ Battle Cry. *IF* you wear SUBSTANTIAL amounts of +skills gear (+10 or more), or if you invest 80 skill points into Frenzy, then its damage will outpace Double Swing's... but then again, Double Swing could always replace that +10 skills with gear-based elemental damage, Crushing Blow, Open Wounds, or Deadly Strike, and it would just as soon regain the upper hand.

    Long story short... if you only want to spend 10 or so skill points outside of synergizing your main attack, then Frenzy will outshine Double Swing. If you want to spend 20+ skills outside of your main skill (on... I don't know... say Battle Orders:azn: ), then Double Swing will kill every bit as quickly as Frenzy, as long as you build it correctly (which means spending no more than 5 points in Double Swing itself). I know, you've never heard this before, this is radically new thinking, but I promise you... I've not only crunched the numbers until the cows came home, I've *BUILT* a Double Swing Barb *AND* a Frenzy Barb, and Double Swing is 100% every bit as viable as Frenzy (in fact, I consider it BETTER because it's so much easier to use). The only real difference is the lack of the Faster Run/Walk (which I always considered annoying, anyway).



     
  19. Qotsa

    Qotsa IncGamers Member

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    Frenzy > DS. Period.
     
  20. Spankeh

    Spankeh IncGamers Member

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    Theres no way in hell DS pwns frenzy
    If you have to use battle cry|taunt| whatever to increase your hits, then your build is noob.
    As for the instant 5fps for DS, i get 5fps on first swing with frenzy with griefpb 38%ias and a second griefpb on off hand.

    End thread
     

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