How to save the Big 3 US automakers

AeroJonesy

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

It's unfair to place the blame squarely on America. The rest of the world screwed the pooch too.
 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

AJ is right. Others bought toxic AAA US bonds and imploded their economies too. Of course they did “not know†what they were buying. :whistling:
 

Ankeli

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Why save them? They make ****ty cars that feel like they're made of all plastic, and most of them drive horribly (par the new Vettes).
 

SnickerSnack

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

AeroJonesy

Well we have OSHA and other laws now that prevent employers from creating unsafe workplaces. So we don't need to give unions legal power to enforce them.
Okay, that makes sense.

But union power doesn't exist only when rights are being violated. It always exists, regardless of violations or not. That's precisely what I'm getting at.
So protections should suddenly spring into place only when violations are made? Maybe I've completely misunderstood your idea, but you seem to not understand what legal protection is. If you don't have it when the violation occurs, then too bad (barring a supreme court decision I'd imagine). Are you saying that the legal protections they do (and should) have are being misused, and so they need different legal protections that can't be misused?

I think that you may be saying that the misused protections are now superfluous and should be removed. I would have to become more familiar with the legal powers they do actually have in order to know whether this is true.

The fact that a company has shareholders means that the company is already forced to take certain actions that it may not want to. And often, that means caving to unions even when it isn't a good idea in the long term. Corporate officers owe a duty to their shareholders now not in the long term. So a union strike is much more effective against a public company than against a private one. Why do you think unionization rates in private companies is so much lower than in public?
What does this have to do with anything? So the people who run the company had to borrow money in order to start; that doesn't mean that they are entitled to special protection. When you choose a business model that limits your options, then you have limited options, and you chose that.

WildBerry

I meant that it only proves that the Unions were generally suspsected to have done it, while there are plenty of examples where the members of the Unions have actually been proven to have done something. Suspicions, then, are more relevant in proving how the Unions are viewed than to what the Unions have actually done. I assume I've been over this already, though.
Your statements make sense individually, but I don't see a cohesive argument. I should probably go back and read all of your posts in order, since you probably have already been over this. You don't seem to be making that same argument as you were a few pages ago.


 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

AJ is right. Others bought toxic AAA US bonds and imploded their economies too. Of course they did “not know†what they were buying. :whistling:
You're dead wrong. This "toxic assets" term seems to be thrown around a lot by people who don't know what they're talking about.



 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

You're dead wrong. This "toxic assets" term seems to be thrown around a lot by people who don't know what they're talking about.
Sure. People who do know a lot and who got us in this situation will fix it.



 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Well you forgot to stay arrogant and ignore things that you don’t like to see.
 

SnickerSnack

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Well you forgot to stay arrogant and ignore things that you don’t like to see.
That was equally impertinent (but yeah, you called him on being a dick). Really, the other (besides the US that is) economies that tanked probably did so for the same reasons that the US' did, not because of it. If you can explain otherwise, I'm very interested in reading it.






Hey: The word "dick" isn't filtered. Why not?


 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Because we want to give people at least a few opportunities to make crude insults. That makes the decisions about banning them a bit easier.
 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

I don’t see where did you get the idea that I insulted him. Perhaps you want me to insult someone here? Unfortunately that you won’t see.

@SnickerSnack – Rather strange conclusion you got there.

Yes. Almost all economies on this world are built similar. There are several countries that don’t follow the same pattern of the majority, but then those are not important for the western societies and you won’t see nice news about them on your main stream channels.

If you found out who is the person on my avatar you will get a good hint how the whole global economy REALLY works. He is the key man of our societies in the past 100 years.

His model created this illusion. Unfortunately that model reached its mathematical limit and started to implode everything, we have a reverse process now. One big black hole just opened and started to suck in everything.
 
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BobCox2

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Some posters find more than enough rope to hang themselves with, and others just knot it all up in a big useless ball of tangles.
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Because we want to give people at least a few opportunities to make crude insults. That makes the decisions about banning them a bit easier.
To avoid any misunderstandings: I was just -=>joking<=-, I didn't mean to make hidden or open threats in my posting in reply to anybody here and BTW, it's the same with my reply to Johnny's posting in the French/German thread. I just don't want to write it there or add smilies to my postings, that would spoil the fun.



 

SnickerSnack

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

@SnickerSnack – Rather strange conclusion you got there.

Yes. Almost all economies on this world are built similar. There are several countries that don’t follow the same pattern of the majority, but then those are not important for the western societies and you won’t see nice news about them on your main stream channels.
I'd imagine (I'd have to do some research to be sure) that many of the economies that are having problems are having them because they were doing the same stupid things that americans were doing. But there are also many countries that are having trouble because they depended so much on the US economy. So, I don't think that the purchase of US bonds is the only cause of trouble in other economies. Strange conclusion, huh?

If you found out who is the person on my avatar you will get a good hint how the whole global economy REALLY works. He is the key man of our societies in the past 100 years.

His model created this illusion. Unfortunately that model reached its mathematical limit and started to implode everything, we have a reverse process now. One big black hole just opened and started to suck in everything.
:ponder: I'll get right on that once my Magic 8 Ball "Who's Picture is That Edition" comes in the mail.


 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

:ponder: I'll get right on that once my Magic 8 Ball "Who's Picture is That Edition" comes in the mail.
<=== Meet Master Charles Ponzi. His creation was largely expanded on a more largely scale and his model is used to establish modern banking system worldwide. This system is legal because its enforced with legal force (army and police), its stealth because media are bought during 1920’s by the same crooks who run the show and the system is going on for so many years because people are ignorant and deliberately brainwashed by these media. Usury Lords don’t want people to see that politicians are just puppets in their hands - the cloak of deception – The Matrix.

Actually this scam started way back in 1694 when The Bank of England was established. From this point we have a gigantic scam where one legal institution could lend out money that they actually don’t have. Now we come to a point to ask ourselves what is money, real money? We have to go deeper in history to explain the foundations.

In the earliest times, people traded goods and services directly. This form of exchange is known as "barter." That is, if a fishing tribe desired to have maybe wheat, which they themselves did not produce, they would seek out other individuals that produced wheat, and then they would exchange theirs for fish.

But barter had limitations in the marketplace.

People perceived pretty quickly problems with that direct exchange: if you wanted, for example, fish and you had wheat, but the people who had fish didn't desire the wheat, you were stuck. Unless you went out and found some other good, possibly berries, that everyone in that society consumed. Then you would trade the wheat for the berries in full confidence that you could turn around and trade the berries for the fish or anything else you desired.

Eventually, the most widely accepted goods in a society became valued for their use in indirect exchange. Money is simply another name for the most generally accepted medium of exchange.

Gold and Silver were one of those commodities that were accepted as medium of exchange. As early as the 16th century in Europe, goldsmiths stored gold coins for their customers for a fee and issued receipts for the gold to the depositor. Thus began the use of paper as money.

These receipts soon became widely accepted as means of exchange, since it was easier and safer to use the receipts for significant transactions. This was the origin of banknotes as money substitutes. These first bankers then took that process one step further. If the goldsmith had 1,000 ounces of gold and 1,000 ounces of legitimate receipts being held by the depositor of that gold, he could increase his profits by merely printing another thousand ounces worth of receipts, and lending them out. In which case he would effectively get fifty-percent reserve banking, or fractional reserve banking. Only a fraction — 50% of the receipts — were now backed by gold.

There was no longer a one-to-one ratio of paper to gold. Now there could be three or four pieces of paper in circulation for every unit of gold in the vault. These bankers were no longer simply storing or warehousing gold for a fee, they were artificially inflating the money supply and loaning out these phony receipts at interest. This system became known as "fractional reserve banking" and was later transported to the early American colonies. It formed the root of the American commercial banking and ultimately the Federal Reserve System.

This is a fraudulent system, it's not allowed in any other business. If you had a grain warehouse that had loaned out the grain it was supposed to have in storage, that's considered criminal, and you would go to jail. But the banks are the one industry that's allowed to get away with this and to profit from it.

As long as all the claim check holders didn’t come to the vault at the same time and demand real gold, how would anyone find out?

During many years, the magnitude of banking loans and their ostentatious wealth did trigger suspicions. Some depositors started to demand real gold instead of paper representations. This set off rumors. Suddenly, several wealthy depositors showed up to remove their gold. The game was up!

A sea of claim check holders flooded the street outside the closed doors of the bank, like in 1907. The bankers did not have enough gold & silver to redeem all the paper they had put into their hands. This is called a “run on the bank” and is what every banker dreads. Bernard Madoff was running this same game. But his game is nothing when comparing to the global scene.

This phenomenon of a “run on the bank” ruined individual banks and, not surprisingly, damaged public confidence in all bankers. It would have been straightforward to outlaw the practice of creating money from nothing. But the large volumes of credit the bankers were offering had become essential to the success of European commercial expansion. So, instead, the practice was legalized and regulated.

Bankers agreed to stay in the limits on the amount of fictional loan money that could be lent out. The limit would still be a number much larger than the actual value of gold & silver in the vault. Quite often the ratio was 9 fictional dollars to 1 actual dollar in gold. You can read this in a workbook issued by The Fed “Modern Money Mechanics”

It was also arranged that, in the event of a run, central banks would support local banks with emergency infusions of gold. Only if there were runs on a lot of banks simultaneously would the bankers’ credit bubble burst and the system come crashing down as we see it today.

Over the years, the fractional reserve system and its integrated network of banks backed by a central bank has become the dominant money system of the world. At the same time, the fraction of gold backing the debt money has steadily shrunk to nothing. In the past, the total amount of money in existence was limited to the actual physical quantities of whatever commodity was in use as money. For example, in order for new gold or silver money to be created, more gold or silver had to be found and dug out of the ground.

In the present, money is literally created as debt. New money is created whenever anyone takes a loan from a bank. As a result, the total amount of money that can be created has only one real limit - the total level of debt.

Governments place an additional statutory limit on the creation of new money, by enforcing rules known as fractional reserve requirements. Essentially arbitrary, fractional reserve requirements vary from country to country and from time to time

Today, a bank’s reserves consist of the amount of government-issued cash or equivalent that it has deposited with the central bank, and the amount of already existing debt money the bank has on deposit.

To illustrate this in a simple way…. let us imagine that I opened a new bank and I don’t have any depositors yet. However I have made a reserve deposit of $1,111.12 of existing cash money at the central bank and the required reserve ratio is 9:1. This is by law and you can read it in Modern Money Mechanics.

1. The doors open and my new bank welcomes its first loan customer. The customer needs $10,000 to buy a good used car. At a 9:1 reserve ratio, the bank’s reserve at the central bank, also known as “high-powered money”, allows it to legally conjure 9 times that amount, or $10,000, into existence on the basis of the borrower’s pledge of debt. This $10,000 is not taken from anywhere. It is brand new money simply typed into the borrower’s account as bank credit. The borrower then writes a check on that bank credit to buy the used car.

2. The seller then deposits this newly created $10,000 at his bank. Unlike the high-powered government money deposited at the central bank, this newly created credit money cannot be multiplied by the reserve ratio. Instead it is divided by the reserve ratio. At a ratio of 9:1, a new loan of $9,000 can be created on the basis of the $10,000 deposit.

3. If that $9000 is then deposited by a third party, at the same bank that created it, or a different one, it becomes the legal basis for a third issue of bank credit, this time for the amount of $8100. Like one of those Russian dolls, each layer of which contains a slightly smaller doll inside, each new deposit contains the potential for a slightly smaller loan in an infinitely decreasing series.

4. New money will always be deposited at a bank, and the reserve ratio process can repeat itself over and over until almost $100,000 of brand new money has been created within the banking system. All of this new money has been created entirely from debt, the whole process legally authorized by the initial reserve deposit of just $1,111.12, which is still sitting untouched at the central bank!

5. Now, unless each successive loan were deposited at the same bank, it cannot be said that any one bank got to multiply its initial high powered money reserve almost 90 times by issuing bank credit out of nothing. However, the banking system is a closed loop, bank credit created at one bank becomes a deposit in another, and vice versa. In a theoretical world of perfectly equal exchanges, the ultimate effect would be exactly the same as if the whole process took place within one bank. That is, the bank’s initial central bank reserve of a little over eleven hundred dollars allows it to ultimately collect interest on up to $100,000 the bank never had.

The banks can only practice this money system with the active cooperation of government.

Furthermore, bankers create only the amount of the Principal. They no not create the money to pay the Interest. Where is that supposed to come from?

The only place borrowers can go to obtain the money to pay the Interest is the general economy’s overall money supply. But almost all of that overall money supply has been created exactly the same way –as bank credit that has to be paid back with more than was created!

So everywhere, there are other borrowers in the same situation, frantically trying to obtain the money they need to pay back both Principal and Interest from a total money pool which contains only Principal. !!!!

It is clearly impossible for everyone to pay back the Principal plus the Interest because the Interest money does not exist. So in order to get your money to pay back the debt you are enforced to borrow more so that pyramid does not collapse.

And there you go. US total debt is over 65 trillion. This is the reason why you have high prices and low wages; they need you to go in debt so with your new loan they will pay back their old debts. Your new loan is new “money” in the circulation, new debt that someone else will pay. This is the reason why Detroit makes bad cars. They don’t want them to last long. They want them to serve you just for a few years so you could buy a new car, a new debt. That’s the reason why western societies have become consumer societies. The pyramid must not collapse.

But it did. It was done deliberately when the whole world was integrated in one Big Ponzi Scheme. And his name is only used because he was the first person who dared to use this enslaving system with no license from the Usury Lords like Madoff had.

The whole world is integrated in one system of dependence and the collapse of western consumption will lead to collapse of eastern production. This is designed, its staged. After every collapse of the world we are closer to a one world Government. Just like after WWI and WWII they brought us League of Nations and UN.

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
Lord David Rockefeller

If you want to hear how US Ponzi Scheme runs listen to Peter Schiff. I listen to him every Wednesday; he has a good view on sound economics. Download his show from 24 December. Or listen his predictions several years ago on Youtube.



If you want to know where US economy is heading listen to world’s No.1 forecaster Gerald Celente.

On Youtube find Max Keiser and Jim Rogers, they also have a good view on economic issues.



 
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SnickerSnack

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

A large section of your post is taken from http://mises.org/story/2870. I don't know if you took it without citing it, but you may want to look around the rest of the site.

I got lost on points 2. and 3. I think there may be a mistake in the arithmetic. Maybe it all makes sense, but please explain it again.

Ponzi...so it's a pyramid scheme? Maybe you should look up William Miller as well? There was also a nice pyramid scheme in Colombia recently. Quite a funny story.

Also, [surprise, surprise] Ponzi got "his idea" from a bank:

Wikipedia:

In 1907 Ponzi moved to Montreal, Quebec, and became an assistant teller in the newly opened Banco Zarossi, a bank started by "Louis" Luigi Zarossi to service the influx of Italian immigrants arriving in the city. Zarossi paid 6% interest on bank deposits - double the going rate at the time - and was growing rapidly as a result. Ponzi found out that the bank was in serious financial trouble because of bad real estate loans, and that Zarossi was funding the interest payments not through profit on investments, but by using money deposited in newly opened accounts. The bank eventually failed and Zarossi fled to Mexico with a large portion of the bank's money.
The cause of US banks' problems isn't lending, it's lending to people who can't repay. I think it was Washington Mutual that lent money to people who had been jailed for fraud using money borrow from Washington Mutual. The banks were being stupid. You could say that the current economic problems are caused by the banking format just like you can say that a car crash is caused by the advent of the internal combustion engine.

I don't know a whole lot about US banking policy, but I seriously doubt that the reserve rate is 900%. I'd have to confirm that.

Detaching "money" from physical goods isn't necessarily bad. It can be, of course, and maybe it has been, but, as I said, I don't think that that's the problem.

Thanks for posting a good explanation, I just don't think it holds water. Or, I've misunderstood something.

BTW, I haven't looked at your last few links yet.
 

vdzele

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

That’s ok if you don’t understand what I post. Most people don’t. The system is designed to be simple in the core but covered with lots of economic garbage.

“The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.”
Albert A. Bartlett, physicist


They also created humans to live in a world of denial when someone points them that he is enslaved with air-money.

“Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.”
Marshall McLuhan
 

Module88

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

The cause of US banks' problems isn't lending, it's lending to people who can't repay. I think it was Washington Mutual that lent money to people who had been jailed for fraud using money borrow from Washington Mutual. The banks were being stupid. You could say that the current economic problems are caused by the banking format just like you can say that a car crash is caused by the advent of the internal combustion engine.
Uh... in reality, there's always going to be someone who can't repay under a fractional reserve banking system. And for the record, your analogy is terrible.

I don't know a whole lot about US banking policy, but I seriously doubt that the reserve rate is 900%. I'd have to confirm that.

Detaching "money" from physical goods isn't necessarily bad. It can be, of course, and maybe it has been, but, as I said, I don't think that that's the problem.

Thanks for posting a good explanation, I just don't think it holds water. Or, I've misunderstood something.

BTW, I haven't looked at your last few links yet.
The reserve requirement is 10%. See your other thread.



 
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