How to save the Big 3 US automakers

[Johnny]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

What urban legend?
I visited the company as an OEM rep.
The company had by that time came up with supertechs. They took the electrical guys and gave them mechanical training and a raise. they took the mechanical guys and gave them electrical training and a raise.
The supertech I met have a union mag on his tool box. On the cover was a flying guy in tights with supertech written on his chest. On the ground were other people saying, "He's doing out job".

And the union there did it's best to drive a wedge between the workers and management. At one their sister plants the manager made sure the workers had what they needed.

At one place I visited was a guy that would get a pot tweaker and walk in front of the electrical guy. The electrical guy would freak out that the mechanical guy had a tool that only electrical guys would use.

You got it absolutely backwards.
It's about the unions saying that people can't do a job.

I met a couple guys at one place that knew the machines inside and out. They applied for a job at the first place but couldn't get one because the union said they had to have either papers or 10 years experience.

I met the guy that did get the job. He was pretty useless for working on the machines.

Sounds like a ridiculous local incident.

 

[vdzele]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Nah, the real question becomes: If some threw garbage hard enough, would it go through you? :wink:

Don't know what this means.

Hmm, it seems one would need your definition of money. :scratchchin:

What is money? As the good that makes exchange possible, it's the foundation of every economic activity. In the earliest times, people traded goods and services directly. This form of exchange is known as "barter."

If a fishing tribe desired to have maybe wheat, which they themselves did not produce, they would seek out other individuals that produced wheat, and then they would exchange theirs for fish.

But barter had limitations in the marketplace.

Well, actually people perceived pretty quickly problems with that direct exchange: if you wanted, for example, fish and you had wheat, but the people who had fish didn't desire the wheat, you were stuck. Unless you went out and found some other good, possibly berries, that everyone in that society consumed. Then you would trade the wheat for the berries in full confidence that you could turn around and trade the berries for the fish or anything else you desired.

Eventually, the most widely accepted goods in a society became valued for their use in indirect exchange. Money is simply another name for the most generally accepted medium of exchange.

This medium should cover the commodities and assets your society possesses. But your Lords have created much more of this medium than you have tangible things surrounding you. Real money was disconnected from this definition long time ago. You and other westerners have air in your pockets.

Those who figure this will be removed.

 

[krischan]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Johnny:

Not quite. It has a lot more to do with long term union contracts that were admittedly approved by management. The results?

That's called the "market" as well. The management and the unions signed a contract which was the result of negotiations. Both sides agreed on it to maximize the benefits respectively to minimize the drawbacks. The good side of long-term contracts is that you will know the development of wages far in advance and there will be no strikes for the duration of the contract (no losses for the companies and the union can save up more money for the next strike and/or reduce membership fees). In good times the companies will make an extra amount of money and in bad times the workers will still get the wages. They already had the good times and now it's bad times.

If you want to pay less to the workers without a compensation, things will escalate. The workers could also argue that they need *more* money because their jobs are so unsafe now. Both would be silly demands. If you want something from the workers, you have to give something in return. That doesn't have to be money.

BTW, I don't mean to say that the unions are acting appropriately, but it's probably the same with the management.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

That's called the "market" as well. The management and the unions signed a contract which was the result of negotiations.

It's not a free Market, Government forces the negotiations and won't allow the company to hire non-union workers or workers to avoid the union. It's Socialism.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

It's not a free Market, Government forces the negotiations and won't allow the company to hire non-union workers or workers to avoid the union. It's Socialism.

If you wan't a free market, try Somalia. The governments do very little interfering there. It's a libertarian utopia.

 

[Module88]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

If I wrote a post 4 months ago that the US auto industry is bad - all of you would through garbage at me.

Is that so?

What would you all say if I say that most of the currencies around the world are crap ? And the money you have on your accounts and in your pockets are not money?

How about that?

To your first question, I'd say you're right. To your second, I'd say you were wrong. Modern fiat currencies ARE a medium of exchange. The dollars in my pocket can be used to purchase goods I might not otherwise be able to purchase if I were to barter, for example.

Now, whether it's a good medium of exchange or not is another story (and it really has more to do with your first question). But to say that modern fiat currencies aren't money (a medium of exchange), well, that's a little far fetched for me. So, yes, the "money" I have in my accounts and pockets ARE money. May not be good money, but it's money nonetheless.

 

[BobCox2]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Money is a Concept, it's based on a common belief in a marker for Value Exchange.
Beyond a very small amount for display I don't really need much in the way of the things traditionally used to back it, be it Gold or Cowrie Shells.

If you wanted a monetary system that made sense you would back it with Real Estate and-or Energy/Labor IMHO. Commodity's are just another of the things traded using money.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Yes! More ignorance from Johnny! O, expert of everything American, please share your wisdom with us. We value your lack of experience, uneducated opinions, and general cluelessness.

 

[vdzele]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

So, yes, the "money" I have in my accounts and pockets ARE money. May not be good money, but it's money nonetheless.

I will remind you of your words in the future when you will need much more “money†to buy something.

 

[Module88]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

I will remind you of your words in the future when you will need much more “money†to buy something.

What would you be reminding me of, exactly? I mean my memory isn't great, but short of amnesia, I don't think I'm going to just forget what I think about our political and economic system.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

...

Okay I underlined every single wise, educated, expert arguments that you took from your vast, experienced repertoire and bring up in your post to to prove me wrong and I wrote a reply to counter them all.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Suck it.

 

[krischan]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

It's not a free Market, Government forces the negotiations and won't allow the company to hire non-union workers or workers to avoid the union. It's Socialism.

I don't understand your concept of socialism. Isn't the "market" about getting away with what you can ?

Also, I doubt that the government disallows that. All they disallow is breaking contracts. If the contract says that it's to be applied to every worker, then it's like that because you have to follow your contracts, not because you made the contract with the union.

 

[Stoutwood]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

But on general trends you're going to be less likely to have problems with a Toyota Corolla than you are with a Chevy Aveo.

You mean the Daewoo Kalos, which is made in South Korea?

 

[Dondrei]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

This is an excellent plan to save U.S. automakers. I see no problems with your plan except for the part where you offer a solution. I guess your thread title confused me.

Maybe he meant to put a question mark on the end.

There should be no bailout. There should have been no Wall Street bailout either.

What's next? Steel? The travel industry? At what point do we say "If you can't be competitive, sucks to be you."?

The point where it only affects non-American companies?

The Big 3 can never be competitive - even if they made the exact same vehicle as a foreign company they would have to charge upwards of an extra $2,000 thanks to the unions.

You mean thanks to the lack of workers willing to take on 48-hour shifts for $US1.50 per week.

Johnny:

Not quite. It has a lot more to do with long term union contracts that were admittedly approved by management. The results?

I don't get it. Toyota has plants in the US which don't have the same exorbitant employment terms as a GM plant? They are both in the same country, presumably subject to the same legislation (I can hardly imagine that foreign companies' stations in America are somehow freer than domestic ones), how is that anything but the free market?

 

[buttershug]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Sounds like a ridiculous local incident.

To a European I'm sure it does.
But they aren't. The attitude of "this is my job and no one else better do it or else." is very prevalent.

I've said more than once that it would be good if NA unions were like European unions.

And to understand NA quality and production vs Japanese quality and production you have to know about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

The world would be different today if the American producers had listened to him

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

To a European I'm sure it does.
But they aren't. The attitude of "this is my job and no one else better do it or else." is very prevalent.

Yep. Especially when the collective bargaining agreement states that non-union employees are not allowed to do the work of union employees.

And to understand NA quality and production vs Japanese quality and production you have to know about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

The world would be different today if the American producers had listened to him

Very much agreed. I find it amusing that one of the big leaders in Japanese car manufacturing philosophy is an American.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Is the collective bargaining agreement mandated by law or can the manufacturer choose not to sign it at all?

 

[Tanooki]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

That's the fun part. If the Big 3 declare bankruptcy they could break the union's hold. They might actually recover and become competitive again.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Is the collective bargaining agreement mandated by law or can the manufacturer choose not to sign it at all?

The agreement is not mandated by law, but law does mandate that employers and unions sit down at the bargaining table. And there are certain items that, if not agreed upon, can be grounds for a strike.

 

[llad12]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

I will remind you of your words in the future when you will need much more “money†to buy something.

Yet, in the present economic downturn ... one of the most currently stable commodities is cash.

Ironic 'eh?