How to save the Big 3 US automakers

[Dirty_Zulu]

How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Well they can't exactly build quality competitive cars and the autoworkers unions believes workers who barely have any education should make lots of money.

I just can't see how they can be competitive with bread and butter models like Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys, Civics, etc...

 

[maccool]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Well they can't exactly build quality competitive cars and the autoworkers unions believes workers who barely have any education should make lots of money.

I just can't see how they can be competitive with bread and butter models like Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys, Civics, etc...

This is an excellent plan to save U.S. automakers. I see no problems with your plan except for the part where you offer a solution. I guess your thread title confused me.

Thank you for making sense of a complicated situation with mindless words. You should run for political office.

 

[Tanooki]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

There should be no bailout. There should have been no Wall Street bailout either.

What's next? Steel? The travel industry? At what point do we say "If you can't be competitive, sucks to be you."?

 

[maccool]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

What's next? Steel? The travel industry? At what point do we say "If you can't be competitive, sucks to be you."?

Your 'job' as father has been assigned to the USDA.


Hey! Who put grease on my slope?

 

[pancakeman]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Who put grease on my slope?

I seriously laughed at that. If I had a sig that would be it.

I think one of the major problems is that consumers have come to associate "import" with quality and fuel economy. This means that even if Detroit puts out more fuel-efficient cars, which they have been doing, nobody cares. They will buy a Camry that gets 23 mpg, even if there is a Chevy that gets 25. This has to be reversed by the car companies, and the only way to do that is time.
Also, the issue of quality. I'm a bit confused on this one, my family has had several domestic cars, and we've never had one of the catastrophic breakdowns people talk about. However, my brother had a mid-range Ford that seemed to break every week. One of my neighbors is constantly driving his wife's car because his Camry breaks down, but our used Infiniti has never given us a problem.
Point? No continent makes unbreakable cars. Yet the American car buyer obviously believes that Asia does, and must not mind when their car inevitably violates this magical spell by needing a tune-up now and then.

So, what do the Big 3 need to do to get business back? They're already working to give their cars better mileage, even though it seems for now that isn't as direly needed as before. They are also making cars that consistently get high marks for safety, that are comfortable inside, sometimes attractive on the outside, and relatively fun to drive. I guess they must be expensive as hell, or people would rather ***** about the politics than admit that they are biased.


Personally, I think we need more good ol American muscle cars. The Corvette VR1 is representin for the supercar area, and the Camaro is coming back, so we need a decent Chevelle and I think we'll be good. Make teenagers stop lusting after crappy Civics and get them drooling over Challengers.

 

[PFSS]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Also, the issue of quality. I'm a bit confused on this one, my family has had several domestic cars, and we've never had one of the catastrophic breakdowns people talk about. However, my brother had a mid-range Ford that seemed to break every week. One of my neighbors is constantly driving his wife's car because his Camry breaks down, but our used Infiniti has never given us a problem.

Point? No continent makes unbreakable cars. Yet the American car buyer obviously believes that Asia does, and must not mind when their car inevitably violates this magical spell by needing a tune-up now and then.

There will always be exceptions - some people own a Jaguar for years without any problems, but a lot more Jaguar owners get very well acquainted with their local garage.

But on general trends you're going to be less likely to have problems with a Toyota Corolla than you are with a Chevy Aveo.

So, what do the Big 3 need to do to get business back? They're already working to give their cars better mileage, even though it seems for now that isn't as direly needed as before.

This attitude is part of the problem with the American car industry - It seems they have held the attitude of "Gas is cheap so why should we make cars that get good mileage?" for a long time and now that people want cars with good mileage rates, for various reasons, the car companies are in trouble.

Personally, I think we need more good ol American muscle cars. The Corvette VR1 is representin for the supercar area, and the Camaro is coming back, so we need a decent Chevelle and I think we'll be good. Make teenagers stop lusting after crappy Civics and get them drooling over Challengers.

Hint: Teenagers, for all their drool, aren't the ones buying a lot of new cars.

Isn't a huge part of the problem for American auto makers the fact that consumers are moving more and more towards wanting practical cars? How is putting their efforts into impractical (but fun) cars going to help them one bit?

 

[pancakeman]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

This attitude is part of the problem with the American car industry - It seems they have held the attitude of "Gas is cheap so why should we make cars that get good mileage?" for a long time and now that people want cars with good mileage rates, for various reasons, the car companies are in trouble.

I phrased that badly, what I meant is that 2 years ago people didn't care what they had to drive as long as the mileage was good. Now, mileage is still a good thing, but it is not the drastic issue it once was.

Hint: Teenagers, for all their drool, aren't the ones buying a lot of new cars.

This is true. But they will eventually buy a new car, and despite what they may say a bit of their old drool-car soaks into their decision. I think that is part of the reasoning behind Dodge re-instating the Hemi, it lets middle-age guys buy a part of their youth and still have a practical car.
Besides, that was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Muscle cars aren't the answer, but I'd love to see more being made.

How is putting their efforts into impractical (but fun) cars going to help them one bit?

Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ascari, Aston Martin, Noble, Lotus, Pagani. What do all these names have in common?

 

[PFSS]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

This is true. But they will eventually buy a new car, and despite what they may say a bit of their old drool-car soaks into their decision. I think that is part of the reasoning behind Dodge re-instating the Hemi, it lets middle-age guys buy a part of their youth and still have a practical car.
Besides, that was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Muscle cars aren't the answer, but I'd love to see more being made.

I kinda agree with you on this, a lot of people do form their idea of a "Dream Car" when they're kids - myself included.

Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ascari, Aston Martin, Noble, Lotus, Pagani. What do all these names have in common?

A tiny but wealthy customer base looking for a very high end specialist product?

They also have very small staffs - a quick search indicates Ferrari employs about 2500 people, Aston Martin employs around 1800, Lamborghini has about 1500. Compared to the hundreds of thousands employed by the Big 3.

They also all seem to be in trouble laying off in the region of 30% of their workforces as the already small volumes of sales have plummeted - looking at articles just now it seems Ferrari's usual sales of about 600 vehicles per month have fallen to less than 100.

If the Big Three did start producing these cars they could never be a core part of their business as the market for them is so small compared to the enormous size of their workforce.

 

[pancakeman]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

What I meant is that they all make impractical, but fun, cars. Sure, they don't sell many of them, but there is definitely a place in the market for such a vehicle. It was sort of a pointless thing, I was just proving a point. Well, I was trying to prove a point and failing.

I wasn't aware of how bad foreign companies like those were doing, that kinda sucks. I know Lambo is owned by Audi (or is it Volkswagen?), so they should be ok, but companies like Bugatti and Ascari don't really have anything else to do.

 

[Tanooki]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

The Big 3 can never be competitive - even if they made the exact same vehicle as a foreign company they would have to charge upwards of an extra $2,000 thanks to the unions.

It was a good run, but sometimes you just have to put them down. *wanders off to get his shotgun*

 

[buttershug]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

The problems with unions is not the wages it's the rules and such.
I know a case where a switch needed to be adjusted. Normally a five minute job. But it took three days of arguing if it was electrical or mechanical.

And unions fight changes that improve productivity because they might lose their jobs. :crazyeyes:

 

[krischan]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

How much does an average worker earn in the US car industry ? I doubt it's more than in e.g. Germany. However, most working people here have some kind of qualification, with an official certificate for a ~3 year education in a certain profession, not just a scrap of paper. He isn't just a self-proclaimed professional, he really is one. Of course, if you learned the wrong profession here, you are screwed up as well.

The problem is that nobody wants what the US car industry has to offer (and they don't have anything to offer to most of the rest of the world for a couple of decades already) and they are unable to change that quickly, thanks to the blindness and deafness of those who made decisions, as well as the consumers themselves - after all, the industry produces what they can sell to them. The managers already received the money, even though they made catastrophic decisions and they aren't going to give it back, I guess. They can say "we just produced what the consumers wanted to have", but then the question is why the consumers wanted it like that, respectively who might have had an influence on their expectations.

I can understand the workers very well. If things are going well, they are told "your expectations will destroy the boom" and if things are going bad, they hear "we cannot afford it". Of course, these complaints won't help at this point, but you cannot simply tell them that it's them who are going to suffer from the mistakes made by others. You have to offer them something in return or make promises about the safety of their jobs - and ensure that these promises are kept under all circumstances.

If the US car industry collapses, it will be the greatest desaster the US ever had. The bank crisis is just a small tremor in comparison to such a massive earthquake. I'm not sure if the people in the US know how serious the situation is. They are just a single step away from a catastrophe. How to prevent it ? I have no idea. A lot of experts already said they are beyond help and e.g. the Deutsche Bank valued their GM stocks with a value of ZERO and they surely didn't do it to cause damage to GM, but to book the losses as quickly as possible, as they expect them to go broke. I don't see a reason why any other car companies should buy GM or Chrysler now. They will probably fare better by letting them go broke and then fill up the vacuum with their own industrial capacities and buy the remains of the factories and the infrastructure for a steal, fire 80% of the workers and do their own thing.

Ford is in a better situation, they sell a lot of competitive cars in Europe and they are far better preperad for the current situation. That won't help the Ford workers in the US, however, only those in Europe.

 

[vdzele]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

If I wrote a post 4 months ago that the US auto industry is bad - all of you would through garbage at me. The question is how come then it was good and now is bad. That’s the real question.


What would you all say if I say that most of the currencies around the world are crap ? And the money you have on your accounts and in your pockets are not money?

How about that?

 

[llad12]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

If I wrote a post 4 months ago that the US auto industry is bad - all of you would through garbage at me. The question is how come then it was good and now is bad. That’s the real question.

Nah, the real question becomes: If some threw garbage hard enough, would it go through you? :wink:

What would you all say if I say that most of the currencies around the world are crap ? And the money you have on your accounts and in your pockets are not money?

How about that?

Hmm, it seems one would need your definition of money. :scratchchin:

 

[Johnny]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

I know a case where a switch needed to be adjusted. Normally a five minute job. But it took three days of arguing if it was electrical or mechanical.

That story has nothing to do with unions in the first place. People allways have these half arsed urban myths stacked up incase union efficiency is brought up and oddly enough it's rarely something union related. Just something that feels like the right thing to mention.

It's either company inefficiency or management.

"So once I saw a broken down car and this mobile crane came driving by. I asked the guy with the crane if he could lift up and the car and take it to the dump. He said it wasn't his job to take care of people's broken down cars. Could you bellive that? Damn union workers"

People get paid to do a job and they do it. If you want them to do something else for free then don't be surprised if they aren't interested. That has nothing to do with unions. It's called "the market"

 

[llad12]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

There will always be exceptions - some people own a Jaguar for years without any problems, but a lot more Jaguar owners get very well acquainted with their local garage.

But on general trends you're going to be less likely to have problems with a Toyota Corolla than you are with a Chevy Aveo.

I would tend to agree. Consumers Union publishes an annual automobile issue which includes a frequency-of-repair record based on surveys from their subscribers. Their results demonstrate that US domestic autos almost always have more problems and fall well below their Japanese competitors in quality, dependability, and workmanship.

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This is true. But they will eventually buy a new car, and despite what they may say a bit of their old drool-car soaks into their decision. I think that is part of the reasoning behind Dodge re-instating the Hemi, it lets middle-age guys buy a part of their youth and still have a practical car.
Besides, that was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Muscle cars aren't the answer, but I'd love to see more being made.

Heh, I grew up in the golden age of Boss Mustangs, SS 396's, Hemi's, 442's, Road Runners, and GTO muscle machines. I haven't bought anything but Japanese cars since the early '80's.

-------

I don't have an answer for the dilemma of our domestic car industry. I am not certain anyone does.

I do know, however, that should they fail, our economy will sink into an abyss not seen since the Great Depression and its effects will ripple world-wide.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Were the US ever good? To my recollection as soon as the Japanese figured out they didn't have to try and sell us the cheapest and ****tiest cars imaginable the "Big 3" have been behind. A decade of "buy american" nonsense might have slowed the bleeding but it never stopped it, and they are now about done dry.

My next door neighbour growing up, this is almost 30 years ago, had no education, could barely sign his name, and spoke little english having immigrated from the Azores. He made 6 figures out of GM, although he did bust his *** for it. They could not refuse him overtime, and they could not tell him not to come in due to union rules.

His job......

Pick up something heavy and move it 10 feet, rinse, repeat. 6 figures, 25 years ago.

Good luck big 3, nice knowing ya.

Dutch

 

[KillerAim]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Johnny:

People get paid to do a job and they do it. If you want them to do something else for free then don't be surprised if they aren't interested. That has nothing to do with unions. It's called "the market"

Not quite. It has a lot more to do with long term union contracts that were admittedly approved by management. The results?

A large part of the problem is the Big Three's cozy relationship with the United Auto Workers union (UAW). GM has a $73 hourly wage cost including benefits and overtime. Toyota has five major assembly plants in the U.S. Its hourly wage cost plus benefits is $48. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out which company will be at a competitive disadvantage. Then there's the "jobs bank" feature of the UAW contract where workers who are laid off workers get 95 percent of their base pay and all their benefits. Right now there's a two-year limit but in the past workers could stay in the "jobs bank" forever unless they turned down two job offers within 50 miles of their factory. At one time job bank membership exceeded 7,000 "workers".

 

[Johnny]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

Johnny:

Not quite. It has a lot more to do with long term union contracts that were admittedly approved by management. The results?

I don't see the problem. Sure giving workers safety costs money but it's something the companies signed for. They get to pay for their choices. I would call the choices they made for car development and designs an even more expensive decision to reflect on.

 

[buttershug]

Re: How to save the Big 3 US automakers

That story has nothing to do with unions in the first place. People allways have these half arsed urban myths stacked up incase union efficiency is brought up and oddly enough it's rarely something union related. Just something that feels like the right thing to mention.

What urban legend?
I visited the company as an OEM rep.
The company had by that time came up with supertechs. They took the electrical guys and gave them mechanical training and a raise. they took the mechanical guys and gave them electrical training and a raise.
The supertech I met have a union mag on his tool box. On the cover was a flying guy in tights with supertech written on his chest. On the ground were other people saying, "He's doing out job".

And the union there did it's best to drive a wedge between the workers and management. At one their sister plants the manager made sure the workers had what they needed.

At one place I visited was a guy that would get a pot tweaker and walk in front of the electrical guy. The electrical guy would freak out that the mechanical guy had a tool that only electrical guys would use.

You got it absolutely backwards.
It's about the unions saying that people can't do a job.

I met a couple guys at one place that knew the machines inside and out. They applied for a job at the first place but couldn't get one because the union said they had to have either papers or 10 years experience.

I met the guy that did get the job. He was pretty useless for working on the machines.