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How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by humbuggerer, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. humbuggerer

    humbuggerer IncGamers Member

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    How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    I recently finished mat-ting a sorc and was considering a respec into something useful for MFing, specifically as an AT runner. I realized at some point that I really, really hate the skill blizzard, and frozen orb doesn't do much for me either, so I was considering FN or glacial spike.

    I've read a little about FN in the AT, specifically an old thread by sirpoopsalot that makes FN sound perfectly viable, but my gear wouldn't be quite as good as his was.

    My hypothetical FN sorc would wear full Tals, and I have three decent cold facets (averaging around +4/-4). I have only four cold skillers though, and NO SoJ or BKWB yet.

    Does anyone have experience with this build? Would this setup be strong enough to be an efficient runner? Do you think GS would be better? (should be safer, anyway)

    Thanks for any input.
     
  2. anthrop

    anthrop IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    I tried a similar build, but with nightwings and a +15 cold/+3 fn ormus, as well as some of the other stuff you're missing.

    It was a nice AT runner on /players 3. It was a nice change from blizzard. Anyway it's mana-hungry. SOJ really helps, along with frostburns, and Insight on a merc.

    Blizzard is kind of annoying, but it's going to give you more bang for your buck. You just have to kind of ignore the stragglers that blizzard somehow misses, like the ones in the corner, or you'll go crazy.
     
  3. Greebo

    Greebo IncGamers Member

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  4. naranjadita

    naranjadita IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    A frost nova sorc is not strong; it's a stupid waste of respec token (or even more stupid waste of a char if you play version other than 1.13)
    Look at Frost Nova's synergies: Blizzard and Frozen Orb - two most powerful cold skills in the entire game.
    With really high end gear (I mean, REALLY HIGH END) nova's damage wont go much higher than 1.5k (while bizzard will deal like TWICE as much damage, and FO will launch a crapload of 900-ish bolts).
    Feels like using a terabyte HDD as a hammer, doesn't it?

    Make a Glacial Spike sorc instead if you want a FCR cold mage.
     
  5. Greebo

    Greebo IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    That's not the point, at all.

    Blizzard and Orb are timed spells, which do not give control of what is going on. They have area of effect, but everyone who's ever played blizzy will tell you that sometimes a monster can stand under a blizzard for like 3-5 seconds without getting hit.

    FN can be spammed like crazy and always affects all the monsters surrounding you. Including cold mastery and 105 FCR it can do over 9k damage per second to all the monsters surrounding you that are not immune.

    OF COURSE blizzsorc is most powerful. That doesn't mean one shouldn't play FN sorc if one wants to.

    As a final thought:
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725776
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578977
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606863
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645800

    --Greebo
     
  6. naranjadita

    naranjadita IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    IMO (and after this disclaimer I can feel free to be a complete arse)
    It's not about fn being weaker than FO. It's about "I'll hit my enemy with a bag full of armed guns instead of shooting him"-playstyle offered by this build.

    Again, Spike > Nova for a fast casting mage. More damage, better crowd control, longer range. And you don't have to be surrounded by monsters to be really effective.

    As for the final thought... Errare humanum est. To each his own. Perhaps there are guys playing sorcs with firebolts synergyzed with maxed meteor and fireball.
     
  7. bcoe

    bcoe IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    I would totally recommend a full Tal's frost nova sorc. Mine is one of my primary AT-runners (along with an Ice/enigma FA-zon). She's the first of Greebo's links, but has been slightly respecced. She wears full tals, with cold facets, war travellers, 2x SoJ, magefists, 35 FCR spirit shield. She has a prayer/insight merc, and carries a bunch of cold skillers and SCs with MF. She clears /p1 AT nearly as fast as a blizz sorc, and is much more fun (for me). She doesn't carry as much MF as a blizz sorc, but the real-life difference between 300 and 500 MF isn't worth much, to me. There is a big speed difference at /p8, but not much at /p1.

    The advantages of FN are that its fun (subjective), pretty, and easy. There is no aiming involved, and it never misses. You just teleport right into a pack of enemies, switch to spamming FN, and they all fall 1.2 seconds later. The misses from blizzard are really annoying, to me, and aren't an issue with FN. Its safe, because it hits enemies on all sides, so no one sneaks up on you. It also takes much fewer skill points to maximize, so it leaves open an alternative element to take out the occaisonal cold immunes. I went with Nova, just to have a similar attack, but any light/fire skill could work. Alternatively, you could max ice bolt too, and have a fully synergized FO, though it really isn't necessary on /p1.

    To summarize - definitely build one. I'd be very surprised if you didn't enjoy her tremendously.
     
  8. Greebo

    Greebo IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Your argument is simply completely wrong.

    I'll take it further and show you why:

    If you play a Barbarian with double 'Giref', 'Fortitude', etc. you must play WW. Frenzy is less powerful and will make less damage per second and thus playing well-equipped Frenzy Barb is like throwing a bag full of guns at someone intead of shooting them.

    Do you see what I mean? A perfect gear (and a lot of us really have near-perfect collections of gear by now) doesn't mean you can only play the powerful builds most suited for the equipment. It really is THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

    Maybe being surrounded by monsters is what is fun? In the end, isn't it why people play Nova sorc?

    Frost Nova works best when you teleport into a pack of monsters and spam.

    Taking your argument further, Chain Lightning is way more powerful than Nova, hits more monsters, autohits and has longer range. Why would anyone play Nova sorc, eh?

    That, right there, is what makes your post annoying to me. Fireball is the same thing (or extremely similar) as Firebolt (concerning the way it works, directionality, animation) but much more powerful. Playing Firebolt sorceress instead of Fireball sorceress would be just for kicks.

    Frost Nova is a spell that's working in a completely different manner than FO/blizzard, for example, again, by not having a timer. It's a completely different situation.

    Comparing the two just shows how ignorant you are about the subject. Or maybe in love with FO, I don't know.

    --Greebo


     
  9. humbuggerer

    humbuggerer IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Well, looks like this inspired some strong feelings..

    I'm not quite awake enough to address everything, but for me, blizzard is out, one way or another. It's basically like Greebo said, FN works differently than blizz, and I'm tired of blizz.

    I guess the only thing keeping me from respeccing right now is the fact that I don't have enough +skills to get maximum -eCR without a few points in CM, which means that I would want to respec again if I ever get more skillers or whatnot. (I haven't been collecting essences due to too lazy to upgrade gomule, and used two respecs on this character already).

    @bcoe: thanks for the inspiration, I read your mat thread yesterday...
     
  10. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    I didn't do a writeup because I didn't complete her (and Nagisa didn't do a writeup because she was level ~83 when I turned her over) but I made a Frost Nova/Nova sorc to test as an AT runner. One minute AT runs with a bad map, and a capable Pit runner besides.

    I'm probably also one of the few people around who has made a pure GS sorc (she's in the Mat/Pat compilation, name's Spike; poops did a 200FCR version which you might learn a little from, as well) which I did limited testing in AT with and I definitely give Frost Nova my stamp of approval over GS. For one thing, GS is much clunkier to use - sometimes the splash radius seems larger than others - and it actually does less damage to packs than Frost Nova does because it hits fewer. The key with Frost Nova, as with Nova, is to be putting your enemies in stunlock, but if you don't have the key to do that with Frost Nova, you probably won't be able to have a powerful enough GS, either.

    That point underlines my next one: GS would only be safer if your Frost Nova is too weak to stun your enemies. Keep in mind that GS only freezes a small group of enemies directly in front (and a little to the side, if you're right on top of them) of you, whereas Frost Nova deals damage to everything in a rather wide radius. One practical meaning here is that GS will leave those mages just behind the Invaders you're shooting at the keep firing until you blast your way through to them while Frost Nova will incapacitate them all.

    I found Frost Nova significantly faster than GS and much safer. Well, to explain that last bit a little more let me re-word it: GS requires you to be much, much more active to pick up on threats immediately and divert your fire to neutralize them. This doesn't necessarily mean the build is less safe, only that you have to be more focused to be as safe.

    In short, my advice to you would be to make a Frost Nova sorc and probably use a Fireball backup (like poops did) if she's to be an AT runner.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get out of this thread of muddle-headed Blizzard bashers. Imagine, people putting down the most awesome skill the sorceress has! The nerve! :rolleyes: ;p
     
  11. Jimothy

    Jimothy IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Actually, yes, I do. To begin each ladder I start with an Andy (nm) runner. Since she is untwinked, FB is too much of a mana hog. While she doesn't go above lvl 60~ hence not fully synergized, she does own Andy.


     
  12. naranjadita

    naranjadita IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    It's not. You seem to misunderstand it. My point is not like "FO is stronger than FN (or WW owns Frenzy, or Starcraft is better than W40K or whatever)". It's about the need to max two potentially superior skills to make an inferior one work more or less ok.
    You, my inattentive friend, seem to misunderstand me again. Novasorc DOES NOT put a single point into any lightning skill that potentially deals more damage than Nova itself, thus making Nova redundant.
    If you are trying to tell me, that my comparison of FN and Spike is wrong at any level, I'll point to the disclaimer of my previous post.
    Just think about it: a skill, fairly and undisputedly outshined by it's own synergies (THB, this is the mostest most super-annoying part for me, and thats the thing I'm trying to say), skill, that requires at least 64 skillpoints to be more or less descent, does not provide any bit of crowd controll (except for chilling) and works effectively only when your character is mobbed!

    I'm a great fan of unconventional builds. There are true masterpieces in the Pat/Mat Compillation thread. But silly irrational bulds and unconventional builds are not the same.

    Makes sense... if your sorc has no teleport.

    The most awesome skill the sorc has is enchant, IMO.

    oh, and
    What should surprise me more? A fireboltress or a mage that lacks mana at lvl 60? :scratchchin:
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  13. bcoe

    bcoe IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Naranjadita -
    Your rancor about FN is odd. I hope you've actually tried it, otherwise those opinions don't make much sense.

    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that FN is stronger than Blizzard as an overall skill. Blizzard has huge damage potential, useful synergies, and is obviously one of the most powerful skills in the game. It can be the centerpiece of an AT-runner, a baal-runner, a mephisto-runner, a pindler, Andy-runner, or a generalist. The OP was speculating about using FN for a MFing AT runner. For this specific purpose, I would suggest that FN is very nearly as effective, and offers a very different game-play and may be more enjoyable (obviously subjective, and one should try it before making up his/her mind).

    It is fairly well-known that the most efficient way to run the tunnels is on players-1. A fully synergized blizzard can do up to 8-10k (or more) damage (doubled with max'ed CM). This amount of damage is totally overkill, unnecessary at p1. Most monsters in the tunnels have 4-8k hitpoints (embalmed: 3947-7366, Invader: 5444-9678 for example - from Arreat Summit). One or two blizzards will kill each enemy, assuming it hits. Unfortunately, Blizzard has a habbit of missing a few, so you often have a straggler, which may require another Blizzard (after the casting timer runs out), or a GS/IB. Frost Nova will do ~1k damage, doubled, at 8 frames per cast. It is spammable and reliable, so everything within a FN radius (which is larger than the typical AT hall diameter) will get killed after ~4 frost novas (novae?) or 32 frames (1.3 seconds, or about the casting timer for a single blizzard).

    Blizzard is a much better spell for high player counts, for Baal-running, or for Mephisto. No doubt. But for AT-running, Frost nova is my choice. I've logged about ~1500 AT runs with a blizzard sorc, and about ~4000 with a frost nova. My choice is clear, and well-informed by experience.

    To the OP: try them both. See what you think, and decide for yourself. As I said earlier, I'd be surprised if you didn't enjoy FN.
     
  14. Greebo

    Greebo IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    That I can sort of understand. However +1 to what bcoe said above.

    You have a preconception that Frost Nova is an inferior skill that is made OK by two synergies which are stereotyped as more superior. That's something I don't agree with, at all. I'm not going to go into details, I feel the posts above do it fairly well.

    We simply disagree about the "potentially superior" part of your statement.

    Blizzard could be considered superior for
    - questing
    - WSK, etc.
    - PvP

    But Frost Nova sorc can be quite effective in AT at /p1, more or less equal run-time wise to Blizzard. You cannot just assume that Blizzard is better, the numbers don't add up. Again, I'll refer to what bcoe said, since I don't think I can say it better.

    --Greebo


     
  15. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    This is exactly why they added synergies to the game, so that we can viably use more than 1-2 skills per tree. thats why we have charged boltresses, dentists, etc...

    I do personally love FO, I think it is one of the coolest skills in the game, but I also think that a FN sorc sounds really cool. It much reminds me of my warcry barb, with nigma he just pops into a croud, spams with a 105 fcr cry(same fps as sorc at 105), and watches them crumble.

    The real fun in the game comes with origionallity, I mean if we are going to flame at people for not using the best skill available why are we not all playing Hdins, they are obviously the most powerfull all around, except for the slight nerfing they got in 1.13 of course.

    I was going to build my new sorc into a orber/? but I may change my mind and try out FN/?, and I play HC so it should be interesting...
     
  16. Ohomemgrande

    Ohomemgrande IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Frost Nova is a fantastic skill and makes a very strong AT runner. I've used it to run Baal without too much difficulty.

    My biggest problem with it was that it killed monsters so fast that I'd always teleport onto dolls or FE enchanted monsters and blow myself up.

    Still, one of my most favorite builds.
     
  17. Flayed One

    Flayed One IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Really? I had Frost Nova/Nova sorceress on battle net, and she wasn't that good. She was okay for 1-player games, although running baal was a bit slow(and I mean Listers pack mostly. Other minion waves disappeared quickly). I also couldn't get her to be able to reliably stunlock cows. I didn't try ATs, but since it is only 2nd act, she probably would be good at it at /players 1. I really loved her. She was really fun and cool. But that was with +4 skills from torch/anni...:p

    Nova mechanics simply rule. It's AoE is huge, and it can be cast really fast. The only problems were lowish damage(difficult to stunlock high hp monsters) and high mana cost. Insight+FBs+Charms with mana+SoJs will completely negate the second problem, but the first one is difficult. I guess that specializing in either Frost Nova or Nova allows one to achieve higher damage with his main attack, so OP shouldn't have that problem.
     
  18. jdkerr

    jdkerr IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Just to run the numbers, I plugged stuff into the calculator.

    Gear:
    Death's Fathom (+3 skills, +30% cold damage)
    Shako (+2 skills)
    Vipermagi (+1 skills)
    Spirit (+2 skills)
    Arachnid (+1 skills)
    SoJs (+2 skills)
    Mara's (+2 skills)
    8 skillers (+8 cold skills)

    That makes +21 to cold skills.

    Frost Nova (slvl41): 915 * 1.30 = 1189.5 average damage
    With Cold Mastery = 2379 average damage

    With partial Tal's (for MF):
    Frost Nova (slvl39): 852.5 * 1.30 = 1108.25 average damage
    With Cold Master = 2216.5 average damage

    For more damage (just for kicks):
    Perfect DF (+35%)
    FO Ormus (+20%)
    Nightwing's Veil (+20%)
    10 skillers
    2x beta BKWB

    Frost Nova (slvl47): 1102.5 * 1.75 = 1929.375 average damage
    With Cold Mastery = 3858.75 average damage :crazyeyes:
     
  19. humbuggerer

    humbuggerer IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    Wow, a lot of good information in this thread. Since it seems like she'll have enough damage, I'm going to respec to FN when I get some free time. Only part I don't like is that I'll have to burn 3 socketing quests. :badteeth:

    @maareek: Thanks for the input. I wasn't thinking about the hit recovery thing, although it's clearly the key to making the build work. I remember seeing people mention this in relation to Nova sorcs a few times.

    @bcoe & Greebo: You guys summed things up pretty well. I was thinking of building a (fun) /p1 AT runner, not a high-damage powerhouse.

    @naranjadita: I see where you're coming from, I just want a build that's more fun. Spamming is more fun for me, and the way blizzard just misses sometimes is incredibly aggravating. And you can't do anything about it. I wouldn't mind a more dangerous build, either. I have a few iterations of lightning trappers and BF sins that I've run in the pit, but my favorite pit runner is my claws of thunder 'sin (w/ 'harmony' rogue merc). She's a blast, and never a dull moment.

    @all: thanks for stopping by. :thumbup:
     
  20. Ohomemgrande

    Ohomemgrande IncGamers Member

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    Re: How strong would this frost nova sorc be?

    This is the key for any of the cold spells in Hell. Getting Cold Mastery to a level to drive the monster's cold resistance to -100% which in Hell means that it should be at least level 23 (-130%; there are a lot of monsters in Hell that have between 25-35% cold resistance) and preferably level 27 (-150%).

    In some cases, your cold damage will go up faster if you max Cold Mastery first before you add any synergies (Frozen Orb for example).



     

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