How skill trees could be done

[konnu]

How skill trees could be done

4 tiers of skills
Must use 5 skill points to advance to next tier
New rule: Max 15 skill points / tier

What this would change is it would force you to choose. You couldn't take for example all tier 2 skills. You could take only lets say half. Those hard choises

Another thing it would do is force more wider skill point distribution. Currently you would probably max few skills leaving your character very monotonous and simple.

I don't exactly know how many skill points you get, whats the level cap etc... but i'd like to see for example lvl 99 character with 99 skill points. 15+15+15+15=60 to arcane and 5+5+14+15=39 storm dualspec. I think 24+25+25+25=99 to one tree would be kinda boring.

What do you think?

I had an another idea for how to gain skills and didn't want to make a new thread. This one would affect respecing and how you gained spells. Characters would get memory point each time they levelup and initial 25. Each skill would use 15-25 memory points so at level 100 you could have 5-8 active skills depending on how powerful they are. You could quite freely change your skills by doing a repeatable quest for a trainer. For example Master Wizard Angelina Windcaller could teach you tornado skill. You'd go to her and she'd give you temporary weaker tornado scroll for a day, using this spell you'd have to complete quite long quest during 48 hours and at the end you'd get the final spell to use. At the end of the quest you'd have to free up memory for the new spell by unlearning 1 or 2 spells. You'd also have the option to respec the skillpoints that would benefit old spells that you unlearned. You could only do one learning quest every 48 hours so total respec would take a week or 2.

I think this would be quite rational(i hate to use word realistic in a fantasy game) way of handling how you learn and forget skills. It would also make sure players would have 5-8 active skills blizzard wanted players to regularly use.

 

[stillman]

Re: How skill trees could be done

"Players usually minmax, thats why i thought limit to max skill points to skill tiers should be implemented."

But this sounds like limiting something people love doing: min-maxing. I was hoping Blizzard will let us min-max even more! For me, I'd prefer to have as few limitations as possible. In fact, I was hoping we could invest more skill points into a skill besides 5 max or 20 max.

I want to be able to play a character that only relies on 2-3 skills and some passives. But we may be forced into having a bunch of active skills with points in them which we never intend on using. Or, we will have a ton of unused skill points. But I think there will be enough passives for the build I described, so I think it'll be alright.

Anyway, getting back to your idea, I fear it would cause us to have too many points forced into skills we don't want. Imo, we should be allowed to benefit from hoarding points if that's what we choose to do.

"Currently you would probably max few skills leaving your character very monotonous and simple."

But I like monotonous and simple.

 

[Fox VII]

Re: How skill trees could be done

Your proposed change would only cause "min/maxing" in to shift around the new rules. I think cooldown timers are a more effective method to encourage the use of more skills than to impose more game "rules," that limit skill combinations.

Finally, due to skills having diminishing returns (at least in DII), your preferred skill distribution would probably be technically more powerful. Plus, you net more rune slots!

:scratchchin: IMO For games with diminishing returns for skills, the real trick to min/maxing is to use as many skills as possible, all at the same time, without having those skills overlap in functionality.

 

[konnu]

Re: How skill trees could be done

Your proposed change would only cause "min/maxing" in to shift around the new rules. I think cooldown timers are a more effective method to encourage the use of more skills than to impose more game "rules," that limit skill combinations.

Finally, due to skills having diminishing returns (at least in DII), your preferred skill distribution would probably be technically more powerful. Plus, you net more rune slots!

:scratchchin: IMO For games with diminishing returns for skills, the real trick to min/maxing is to use as many skills as possible, all at the same time, without having those skills overlap in functionality.

Cooldowns are ok if theres not excessive amounts of them like in WOW where you needed addons to manage them. 2 cooldowns with hp and mana bar are quite enough numbers to watch imo and won't take that much focus from the actual game action.

Diminishing returns might be nice to "force" more wider skills. Like if you'd cast 3 magic missiles in row the spell efficiency would drop for few seconds. Quite brilliant idea, never heard that one before. nice chinscratch :thumbsup:

Anyway, my intention was not to limit players, on the contrary i believe in more free, more player influencable sandboxes. but using all points into 1 superpowerful skill sounds quite dumb game mechanic.

 

[Starving_Poet]

Re: How skill trees could be done

Well, I think that no matter what sort of barrier you put into place, it will only cause the min-max to shift around it.

Even skill cooldowns - like a blizzsorc, for example. Blizzard has a cooldown, so how do you get around it? Blizzard, ice blast,ice blast, ice blase, Blizzard. etc. and so forth.

The best way to make characters want to vary their builds is to build random resistances into enemies. Game one, fallen might be resistant to fire, game two poison, game three lightning.

But that could lead to a character getting stuck, so flip resistance with weakness and there you go.

Edit: I remember playing a NWN persistant world where there were world events like this that happened. So, monsters resistances would shift globally in regards to some given story event, and it really helped promote out of the box D&D builds.

 

[Mad Mantis]

Re: How skill trees could be done

But that could lead to a character getting stuck, so flip resistance with weakness and there you go.

Then people would either soldier on and bear it or they would remake the game until the resistances suit them.

 

[Jedouard]

Re: How skill trees could be done

I rather liked the system Bashiok mentioned most recently, i.e., the combining of all trees in terms of accession. Trees still have significance in that certain skills within them will be synergistic (e.g. one passive berserker skill may effect another active one), but the requirements to get higher skills are combined: 5 points in tier one across the board gives you access to tier 2 skills across the board. I do not want to be limited to a tree and thus build or to min/maxing (or not min/maxing). All these should be individual player choices. Blizzards only task in my eyes is to make all the skills awesome and to make them work with one another in awesome ways: the combinations and thus style of play are up to you.

I am not so sure on their 5 skill point cap with the chance to increase that cap to 15, especially as I do not know the difference in the mechanic between earning skill points and earning skill-cap points. I am inclined to think this is a bit superfluous, but who knows.

 

[ThomasJ]

Re: How skill trees could be done

I have no problem with skill trees but if you truely want to be different then why not have no trees at all ? Why can't we just acquire certain skills at certain levels instead of skill trees ? For example, if I am level 25 why couldn't I go buy skills from all 3 lines of a Barbarian and each time I level up the skills damage increases. Like Whirlwind at level 20 and Seizmic Slam at level 15. Why do I need points in a tree to acquire skills ?

 

[konnu]

Re: How skill trees could be done

Blizzards only task in my eyes is to make all the skills awesome and to make them work with one another in awesome ways: the combinations and thus style of play are up to you.

Thats the optimal. WOW trees became better and better over the years making some dual tree builds viable. I think mage became pretty damn nice. There were only few bad skills and you could do some interesting elemental builds(fire+frost dualspec)

I have no problem with skill trees but if you truely want to be different then why not have no trees at all ? Why can't we just acquire certain skills at certain levels instead of skill trees ? For example, if I am level 25 why couldn't I go buy skills from all 3 lines of a Barbarian and each time I level up the skills damage increases. Like Whirlwind at level 20 and Seizmic Slam at level 15. Why do I need points in a tree to acquire skills ?

Oblivion had a system like that. you'd automatically gain bonus to skills and abilities that you actively used through the level. You could buy any skill from vendor be it melee, caster or summoner skill. I liked it and thought it was 'ralistic' if you can say that from a fantasy game, ut it was quite hard to make exactly the kind of char you wanted. You had to know how much you were using each ability. For example, you had to constantly bunny hop to get skills for jump, but not too much so you'd have space for other skills too hehe it's hard to explain too... As good idea it was, it didn't quite work that good. Maybe if someone developed it a bit further...