How much "slow" is too much slow?

TheNix

Diabloii.Net Member
It's only been a few days since I finished 1.14 and I'm getting twitchy again, so I'm thinking of re-visiting my 1.13 BotD sept. For the necro I was thinking of doing a slo-momancer. So I was going to go for the usual decrep, gumpy and HF Merc with a Kelpie Snare. Is a Blackthorn's Face on the Merc just overkill? Am I right in thinking that if I have any slow target on the Necro it will overwrite the effect of the merc slow target?

Edit: *too much slow* I wish you could edit the post title!!!
 

T72on1

Diabloii.Net Member
I think this page should answer all your questions on slow.

I must admit though, it's still not completely clear to me after reading it. But I think that Decrep and level 6 CG already get you to the max 90% slow threshold, so all the slow on the merc doesn't make sense.
 

Maltatai

Diabloii.Net Member
@T72on1
The linked page mentions "hit slows target" as capped at 90 % versus normal monsters (ST as it is shortened there). Since hit slows target stack with the slowing effect from holy freeze and decrepify, it seems more plausible to me that the real upper limit is the lower limit (this sentence makes so much sense o_O) of 15% attack rate or 25% velocity that is mentioned:
Sums with attack rate and velocity reduction from cold length, Holy Freeze and Decrepify, although no unit can be reduced below 15% attack rate or 25% velocity.
Also, consider the fact that some enemies are immune to holy freeze and some are extra fast minons.
There is no such thing as too much slow! All must be mired in the slowing decrepit slothfulness!:mad:
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Whatever the cap is you definitely want holy freeze for the AoE slow. Gumby doesn't do much himself.
 

TheNix

Diabloii.Net Member
Wishes do come true.
Thanks Noodle, you're a gentleman and a scholar.

I did some research and I knew the combined slowing effect was going to be tricky, there's so many factors to take into account. I've had this in my stash for a while and I've been looking for an excuse to use it:

Kelpie Snare
Stygian Pike
Two Hand Damage: 148 - 646
Durability: 28 of 35
Required Level: 56
Required Strength: 158
Required Dexterity: 87
Fingerprint: 0xed76edbd
Item Level: **
Version: Expansion 1.10+
176% Enhanced Damage
Adds 30 - 50 Damage
Slows Target by 75%
+10 to Strength
+93 to Life (Based on Character Level)
Fire Resist +50%
Required Level +7
Ethereal

Edit: why is eighty-eight showing up as **?
 

logoutzero

Diabloii.Net Member
The ** thing is some sort of offhand 1337 speak for something not G-rated if memory serves me. I think it is discussed in a sticky?
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
I asked the '**' ages ago, when the IFT had a lot of people censoring their item levels. H is the 8th letter of the alphabet, and two 8's together have a 'secret' meaning. Google a couple of 8's and a couple of h's for more info. I disagree that it should be censored, but it is what it is.

I don't know the answer to your main question, but, am trying to think of other characters that could go along with your slow theme. Hurricane/tornado druid?
 

sanguillen

Diabloii.Net Member
I think this page should answer all your questions on slow.

I must admit though, it's still not completely clear to me after reading it. But I think that Decrep and level 6 CG already get you to the max 90% slow threshold, so all the slow on the merc doesn't make sense.
I can't confirm 100%, but I feel like I've had a Necro in the past (pre-RWM days) who used Decrepify, a Might merc with Kelpie, a clay golem, AND frost mages all together, and that the frost mages contributions were noticed when they would inevitably die (with a mage active in that setup, Diablo would hardly move at all). I tried a Holy Freeze merc once, but found that it was much tougher to raise my army due to shattering corpses.
 

Friiser

Diabloii.Net Member
I've not tried this build, but am a fan of the necromancer and will probably give it a go sometimes. Its good to know that the Holy Freeze merc also takes away possible CE starters as well, if the build plans on using that skill.

One thing that I always wished for the mages was to have the ability to only summon a specific type if desired, instead of being forced into a randomly chosen set. Just a "that'd be fun" thought in my head.
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
One thing that I always wished for the mages was to have the ability to only summon a specific type if desired, instead of being forced into a randomly chosen set.
You could unsummon those of the wrong type and rais a new one until the mix is of your liking.
 

Friiser

Diabloii.Net Member
@krischan true, but that becomes very tedious if you are running a specific target over and over. For example, if I were running Andariel I'd want to only summon the fire mages as Andariel's is very susceptible to fire damage. In the grand scheme of things this wouldn't have a significant impact. Similar to being able to summon a specific kind of golems, the necro could summon a specific mage(s).
 

sanguillen

Diabloii.Net Member
@krischan true, but that becomes very tedious if you are running a specific target over and over. For example, if I were running Andariel I'd want to only summon the fire mages as Andariel's is very susceptible to fire damage. In the grand scheme of things this wouldn't have a significant impact. Similar to being able to summon a specific kind of golems, the necro could summon a specific mage(s).
From my experience, even summoning specific mage(s) has drawbacks that outweigh their usefulness:

-it's a real pain when they enter a tunnel or a laneway first, blocking your merc or skellies from going through first and delivering enough damage to create a corpse (big problem in places like the Maggot Lair or the Arcane Sanctuary in particular)
-summoning them lowers the number of corpses you can explode
-they're much more squishy than skellies and revives - Act Bosses can really make short work of them at times
-the damage they can deliver is, with the exception of certain unique cases like your aforementioned Andariel case, rather insignificant
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
I also think that skeleton mages aren't that useful. Apart from blocking melee skeletons and their limited damage, the necromancer will have a problem with his curses. Amp only helps the melee skeletons and lower resist only helps the mages. There's decrepify which helps both (mages at least benefit from lower enemy speed and damage), but it doesn't cover a big area and it runs out quickly, so you will have to cast it very often. I would rather boost revive (even though they tend to disappear when being too far away from the necro) and a bone armor synergy (which is better than boosting bone armor itself BTW).
 

Friiser

Diabloii.Net Member
In general I tend not to summon the mages. In running Baal for the last MF/RF tournament I wondered if summoning mages would help run times out any since every bit of damage helps and my merc holds an Infinity (helps all but the poison mages).

Anecdotally I did not notice a difference in time, but my test methods were at best sloppy and inconsistent with absolutely nothing written down or tracked in any way.o_O That, coupled with a super small sample size basically means I learned nothing. These aren't the droids your looking for...move along...move along.
 

pharphis

Diabloii.Net Site Pal
Honestly crushing blow luck and hit chance on your merc probably have more of an influence (via high variance) compare to what the mages might contribute. Probably difficult to notice the small benefit they provide, if any
 

TheNix

Diabloii.Net Member
I plan to put a point into CE and single points in the skelly tree down to Revives, but they are plan B and C respectively; I really want to go melee as much as possible.
 

Maltatai

Diabloii.Net Member
How about dim vision as a complement to decrepify? With the large radius it is easy to shut down ranged enemies and then you can decrepify small group at a time that your party attacks.

A somewhat belated note about Blackhorns face: Even if the extra 20% slowing aren't that significant, isn't it worth wearing the thing for the awesome lightning protection alone? If you slow all foes to a crawl they will probably not smash your hireling much but scarabs and lightning enchantment will still hurt a lot with all the discharges from the hirelings many jabs.
I made a leaping barbarian before who could mostly neutralise melee attacks against his friend Wulfgar, which a slowing necromancer should be able to do too, but Blackhorns face proved quite essential for his survival. And survive he did, so it is a tried and tested helmet, recommended by the UMT (United Mercenary Troops) :)
https://www.diabloii.net/forums/threads/guardian-izzor-the-leapfrog.927643/
 

TheNix

Diabloii.Net Member
How about dim vision as a complement to decrepify? With the large radius it is easy to shut down ranged enemies and then you can decrepify small group at a time that your party attacks.
I always like to have Dim Vision in my armoury but I had forgotten able the differences in AoE: this sounds like a great idea!!

A somewhat belated note about Blackhorns face: Even if the extra 20% slowing aren't that significant, isn't it worth wearing the thing for the awesome lightning protection alone? If you slow all foes to a crawl they will probably not smash your hireling much but scarabs and lightning enchantment will still hurt a lot with all the discharges from the hirelings many jabs.
I made a leaping barbarian before who could mostly neutralise melee attacks against his friend Wulfgar, which a slowing necromancer should be able to do too, but Blackhorns face proved quite essential for his survival. And survive he did, so it is a tried and tested helmet, recommended by the UMT (United Mercenary Troops) :)
https://www.diabloii.net/forums/threads/guardian-izzor-the-leapfrog.927643/
This too, is an idea worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestions!!!!
 
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