How much does range matter?

[newbunch]

How much does range matter?

I know weapons range (melee characters) makes a big difference for WW Barbs. How about for other builds? Does the difference between a range of 2 and 3 matter that much for a Frenzy/Double Swing Barb?

I know a higher range means you can hit things farther away. But aren't I right up in the monster's face any way? Or do different monster's have different ranges and the farther I stay away, with better range weapons, the better?

Thanks.

 

[sirpoopsalot]

Re: How much does range matter?

I don't even think range makes a big difference for whirlwind - I've tried with range1 and range5 weapons, and it's not that important. So, no, range2 or 3 won't make a difference for Frenzy/DS, in my opinion. <--- PvM only - I don't play PvP.

The only time I can think of that range is important is with one of the paladin attacks. Zeal, I believe. There's a bug where you sometimes do a slow-as-heck normal attack when the monster is out of range, and this is more noticeable with shorter range weapons.

 

[Verashiden]

Re: How much does range matter?

Depends:

PvM: Not really.

PvP: For melee characters it matters a ton. The difference between range 2 and range 3 could mean the difference the trading with the BvC or having him clip you to death. The difference between range 4 and range 5 could mean killing the Sorc who strayed a little too close on one of her teles.

 

[stephan]

Re: How much does range matter?

There's a picture showing different ranges here. For PvM it doesn't make much difference though since there are no true multi-target melee attacks.

 

[newbunch]

Re: How much does range matter?

I play PvM so it doesn't make much difference then. Thanks.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: How much does range matter?

I've done some extensive tests involving mêlée range recently, although the results are posted in the Amazon Basin's Technical Discussion forum and the AB's Diablo II Wiki.

Different monsters have different ranges according to the entries in the MeleeRng and SizeX/Y columns of MonStats2.txt (range = MeleeRng + Size). So Zombies have range 2 (0 + 2) while Blood Lords have range 7 (3 + 4).

Fortunately player's range also varies according to the Size of the monster being attacked. The ranges quoted on the Arreat Summit are only accurate for attacking Size 1 monsters, and possibly other players and their hirelings and pets (although I'm unable to test this to confirm it). Range = rangeadder + Size, where rangeadder is a column in Weapons.txt; daggers and wands have rangeadder 0, while certain polearms and spears have rangeadder 4 (a weapon's rangeadder is the Arreat Summit's range - 1). So a player armed with a War Pike (rangeadder 4) would have range 6 (4 + 2) when attacking a Zombie and range 7 (4 + 3) when attacking a Blood Lord.

The range of hirelings and pets is determined by their entry in the MeleeRng column of MonStats2.txt and the Size of the monster being attacked.

The range of Frenzy and other attacks that use two weapons (including Normal Attack while two weapons are equipped) is determined by that of the primary weapon i.e. the first weapon equipped or the weapon equipped above the gloves (the primary weapon will be displayed in the Barbarian's right hand). For example, if you equip a Scourge (rangeadder 2) as your primary weapon with a Fanged Knive (rangeadder 0), the range of the Fanged Knive will also be determined by the Scourge's rangeadder 2. I've not been able to tell whether the same applies to Whirlwind with two weapons, since the results were inconsistent (sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't).

Whirlwind only attacks one target within range with each weapon every attack check, so range isn't important as long as you remain in range of at least one monster (although longer range is more forgiving if you're unskilled, lazy or playing in laggy conditions). Longer range can actually be bad since it can increase the number of monsters targeted and spread damage around more, so that more monsters are alive and thus attacking for longer. However, it can also have defensive advantages since you can hit targets which cannot hit you (although this is only useful if you're mobile or otherwise able to maintain the range advantage e.g. with hit recovery, Knockback, freeze, stun, blinding or fleeing), or at the very least minimise the number of free attacks made by a monster with longer range without retaliation.

While it's technically possible for a player armed with a rangeadder 4 weapon to kill a Size 3 Fire Enchanted Unique without getting caught in it's death explosion (4 yard radius vs range 7), in practice this would be quite difficult to execute. It's also technically possible for a player armed with a rangeadder 3-4 weapon to kill Bone Fetishes without getting caught in their death explosion (3 1/3 yard radius vs range 5-6), but again this might be quite difficult to execute (although easier with a rangeadder 4 weapon, and something like Knockback or Stun).

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How much does range matter?

range slightly helps for life or mana leeching too. longer range means more chances to hit (though hits-damage can be spread out which is a bad thing as some one has already mentioned) and thus more chance of mana or life leeching.
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i presume if i read the one post above right, that a single hit check (for example on ww) can only damage one monster, and not, lets say, 5 monsters with a range 5 spear or pole arm ? longer range does NOT mean u can hit multiple monsters per hit check, right??

or impale-jab with an amazon with a spear can only hit 1 monster right, and not "screwer through" 5 small monsters lined up?

 

[In the name of Zod]

Re: How much does range matter?

thanks onderduiker for this research, found the wiki (http://wiki.theamazonbasin.com/index.php/Mêlée_Range) that's wonderful stuff! :thumbup: Is there any further information on how the collision detection actually processes this data.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: How much does range matter?

i presume if i read the one post above right, that a single hit check (for example on ww) can only damage one monster, and not, lets say, 5 monsters with a range 5 spear or pole arm ? longer range does NOT mean u can hit multiple monsters per hit check, right??

or impale-jab with an amazon with a spear can only hit 1 monster right, and not "screwer through" 5 small monsters lined up?

Whirlwind only attacks a single random target each attack check when equipping a two-handed weapon or weapon and shield, so increased range will only increase the number of targets within range when that single random target is selected.

Unfortunately, Jab and Impale are single-target attacks.

thanks onderduiker for this research, found the wiki (https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Mêlée_Range) that's wonderful stuff! :thumbup: Is there any further information on how the collision detection actually processes this data.

I renamed it the Melee page so that you only have to type Melee and not Mêlée_Range in the address bar. Apologies for not posting a link earlier, but I thought it might break forum rules.

I should point out that while I'm able to conduct practical tests and can modify text files extracted from the .mpq archive files to do so, I don't know how to access or read the actual game code. So if you're looking for detailed information about targeting and collision detection routines, I'm not your guy.:whistling:

Melee attacks only target the central occupied sub-tile, regardless of monster size; a Size 3 monster might occupy 13 sub-tiles, but you can only target it if the central sub-tile is within range. This is the case whether the target is specifically selected or not. I'd assume that multi-target attacks like Fend, Fury and Zeal select their targets at the beginning of the attack, so if monsters come into range during the attack they won't be targeted.

Missiles can collide with other occupied sub-tiles. Size 1 monsters occupy 1 sub-tile, Size 2 monsters occupy 5 sub-tiles and Size 3 monsters occupy 13 sub-tiles. I've only just started to investigate this, but it seems that all the sub-tiles occupied by Size 1 and 2 monsters can be hit, while only 9 (3 x 3) sub-tiles occupied by Size 3 monsters can be hit. Monsters are hit when a missile collides with any of these sub-tiles.

I haven't looked into what auras like Holy Fire, Freeze and Shock target yet.

 

[DudSpud]

Re: How much does range matter?

The only time I have noticed range to really matter is when Fending. A Spear class weapon not only allows me to hit from behind merc (and valk if I have her) and a well placed Decoy, but I also seem to hit far more baddies per cycle.

Other than that, the only difference seems to be when trying to hit across barriers, like "open" walls - ie jail cells in A1 and chain walls in A4.

TehSpud

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How much does range matter?

ty, onder

i already thought that both ww and impale/jab/fend/zeal/etc only targets 1 monster per hit check. i jsut wanted to make sure, just in case.

 

[Dad Daniel]

Re: How much does range matter?

So, when we are talking for high range ww, what will happen if the character has some source of pierce (like razortail belt)?
Is it possible to hit two mobs in a line while ww through them?

:nod:

 

[In the name of Zod]

Re: How much does range matter?

Mêlée attacks only target the central occupied sub-tile, regardless of monster size; a Size 3 monster might occupy 13 sub-tiles, but you can only target it if the central sub-tile is within range. This is the case whether the target is specifically selected or not. I'd assume that multi-target attacks like Fend, Fury and Zeal select their targets at the beginning of the attack, so if monsters come into range during the attack they won't be targeted.

So the attacker doesn't benefit from the monster's sizes only the monster does when attacking us. I presume this goes for monsters attacking us too. Do you have any information on the ranges of explosions (freezing arrow, metor, and the like)? One must presume that they also use sub-tiles, but do they act as ranged attacks hitting monsters based on the sub-tiles they consume?

Someone here tested the ranges of aura's and discovered that they are star shaped.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: How much does range matter?

So, when we are talking for high range ww, what will happen if the character has some source of pierce (like razortail belt)?
Is it possible to hit two mobs in a line while ww through them?

Piercing from items and the Amazon skill only applies to arrows, bolts and throwing weapons (axes, javelins and knives), not mêlée attacks.

So the attacker doesn't benefit from the monster's sizes only the monster does when attacking us. I presume this goes for monsters attacking us too. Do you have any information on the ranges of explosions (freezing arrow, metor, and the like)? One must presume that they also use sub-tiles, but do they act as ranged attacks hitting monsters based on the sub-tiles they consume?

Someone here tested the ranges of aura's and discovered that they are star shaped.

Range of players, hirelings, pets and monsters all vary according to monster Size. A Blood Lord is Size 3 and has MeleeRng 4, so it has range 7 (3 + 4); it's worth pointing out that players, hirelings and pets are all Size 2, although I don't think this is applied in the same way as it is for monsters. Players attacking a Blood Lord with a War Pike (rangeadder 4) will also have range 7 (4 + 3), whereas they'll have range 6 (4 + 2) when attacking Size 2 monsters and range 5 (4 + 1) when attacking Size 1 monsters.

Explosions often use missiles, and the area affected by those explosions is determined by how far those missiles travel before they expire. A Bone Fetish's death explosion can't be Dodged by an Amazon (since this only applies to mêlée attacks) but it can be Avoided (which applies to missile attacks) and Evaded (which applies to both while moving). This death explosion corresponds exactly to a 3 1/3 yard radius, just as a Fire Enchanted Unique monster's death explosion corresponds exactly to a 4 yard radius (regardless of monster size).

However, the range of most missiles only approximates radius in yards; Warcry's radius only approximates 4 yards, whereas aurae, curses and other skills which don't use missiles to apply themselves have their radius defined by Skills.txt in sub-tiles (which is displayed in yards to be more user-friendly).

Aurae used to be star-shaped, but this is no longer the case. This Radius page contains an image displaying radius in yards and sub-tiles, which is accurate for aurae, curses and other skills that might have their radius defined in sub-tiles by Skills.txt. Since I tested this with Flying Scimitars (Size 1), I don't know whether these skills only target a monster if its central sub-tile is within their radius (like mêlée attacks), or if they'll be applied if other occupied sub-tiles are within their radius (like missiles).

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How much does range matter?

So, when we are talking for high range ww, what will happen if the character has some source of pierce (like razortail belt)?
Is it possible to hit two mobs in a line while ww through them?

:nod:

i've always believed that pierce only works for ranged weapons (bow, xbow, thrown javelins, throwing axes).

though, i too do not know this for certain, but i highly doubt pierce works for melee weapons like a spear with range 5

*oops, onder already answered this you for...my bad (i didn't read further posts before i made this)

 

[DudSpud]

Re: How much does range matter?

ty, onder

i already thought that both ww and impale/jab/fend/zeal/etc only targets 1 monster per hit check. i jsut wanted to make sure, just in case.

My understanding is that all physical attacks get one hit check per target per "swing". The question is, how many hit checks per press of the "attack?" For example, jab makes three attacks at the same monster, each with an individual hit check, per cycle, Strafe makes up to 10 arrow shots at targets with in range (multiple hits per cycle possible, depending on next delay), Fend attacks each monster within range once each cycle, up to 12 total. It was with reference to Fend that I made my earlier comments. As for WW and Fury, I don't know...

Oh, and 'Daniel, pierce only works with missile attacks, though what it does with a bow/cbow wielding Fury Druid, I don't know. I suspect not...

TehSpud

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How much does range matter?

My understanding is that all physical attacks get one hit check per target per "swing". The question is, how many hit checks per press of the "attack?" For example, jab makes three attacks at the same monster, each with an individual hit check, per cycle, Strafe makes up to 10 arrow shots at targets with in range (multiple hits per cycle possible, depending on next delay), Fend attacks each monster within range once each cycle, up to 12 total. It was with reference to Fend that I made my earlier comments. As for WW and Fury, I don't know...

Oh, and 'Daniel, pierce only works with missile attacks, though what it does with a bow/cbow wielding Fury Druid, I don't know. I suspect not...

TehSpud
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all that stuff i understood already and was NOT what i was asking about (sorry for the confusion, it's *MY* fault for the misunderstanding).

the thing i wasn't sure about is if....i'll try to explain what i meant, better (hopefully):

let's talk about a real fight with a long spear. and let's say u have the strength-force to have it come out the other side of the person's body. so, in using these two statements, in a real fight that single spear thrust (an attack per cycle in d2 terms like with ww, fend, jab, or impale) could if your enemies were all lined up, be run through all of them. i wasn't sure if this also occured in d2 or not for whatever skill using a long range (5) weapon, be it ww, fend, impale, or jab. of course all these skills vary in number of attacks within their cycles. that's not what i was unsure about. hopefully, this makes more sense in what i was asking about, than making it now more confusing.

or, lets take a look at ww in a real fight.

let's say i have a claymore sword (~4-5 feet long) and i can swing that around in a circle.

as i come around with my 4-5 foot long claymore sword, if there were 5 people pressed together within 4-5 feet, i would slice all five in half. i was unsure if this also was the case in d2 or not.

onder, answered that, only 1 of those 5 people would be sliced in half if this real life example with ww was within d2 game. the d2 mechanics doesn't go into this level of detail-complexity.

hopefully, one of these two examples explain what i was asking about.

and as i said ty to onder, that unsureness i had, has been answered

*i was NOT asking about cycles, individual attacks within a cycle, or to hit checks of various attacks-skills.

maybe this is a good way of explaining what i meant:

i already knew that:

in 1 "cycle" (1 press of the mouse button to attack) of jab, it attempts to hit that single monster or character (target) 3 times.

what i did NOT know:

with a range 5 spear you decide to use for jab, would jab be able to hit 5 size 1 monsters (targets) lined up against each other (skewering all 5 monsters or targets with 1 thrust for each of the 3 attacks for a total of 15 hits on 5 monsters compared to 3 hits on 1 monster, even though the skill only is suppose to attempt to hit a single monster or target 3 times) for EACH of its 3 attacks or not?

 

[DudSpud]

Re: How much does range matter?

what i did NOT know:

with a range 5 spear you decide to use for jab, would jab be able to hit 5 size 1 monsters (targets) lined up against each other (skewering all 5 monsters or targets with 1 thrust for each of the 3 attacks for a total of 15 hits on 5 monsters compared to 3 hits on 1 monster, even though the skill only is suppose to attempt to hit a single monster or target 3 times) for EACH of its 3 attacks or not?

Short answer - no, you only hit one monster per hit check for melee attacks, no matter the weapon range, and pierce wont help.

As for the confusion, we are both likely to "blame," though in this case I think I am more likely to be at fault, after re-reading your posts. I just hope I didn't muddy the waters too much, and to the extent that I did, I apologize.

TehSpud

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How much does range matter?

ty, both onder and dudspur,

i was thinking a bit more comlex than the d2 makers made d2.

sorry for the confusion everyone/anyone reading the posts
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range of (melee) weapon has NO effect on the # of targets you can hit during a single swing/attack/strike of whatever skill using.