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How GRs should actually work.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Steven Hazani, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    We all know by now luck is the only real factor involved in these, and whether you succeed or fail at them. Instead of getting into that, and all the drama and BS that comes as a result, I'd instead like to discuss how things could be done differently to severely limit or eliminate the luck element such that these at least somewhat serve their intended purpose as competitive venues/class balance metrics. And let's make it less annoying while we're at it.

    It should go without saying that classes not named Demon Hunter or Wizard, particularly Barbarians need a buff, as these changes will instantly decrease their max ranking otherwise.

    It should also go without saying you need a skill based base game, so no auto hits (which become high damage with infinite damage scaling), and no chain cc and so on. I've only went over this in every third post I've ever made, so I'm not doing it again.

    Trials:

    A wave ends when 90% of enemies are dead.
    Waves might contain elites instead of normal enemies. Such waves occur more often at higher levels and grant more time to complete. This is so they more accurately mimic the GRs you are being tested for.
    Trial rift scaling reduced (otherwise elites would OHKO with every attack and have 10s-100s of billions of life, the current scaling is balanced for normal enemies only).
    When you have unlocked a given GR level, instead of using a trial key to open a trial you instead have the option to trade it directly for a key. This key can be of any level from 1 to the highest you have unlocked, inclusive and is separate for both each character and each game mode (solo, 2 people, 3 people, 4 people). You unlock a given key level by either receiving a key from a completed trial, or completing a key you obtain for any reason (and in the latter instance, you unlock any key of that level +1, aka beating a 32 unlocks 33 down). Yes, this does mean you never have to do trials more than once per game mode if you don't want to, you still can if you want a higher unlock that way.

    GRs:

    Instead of the current RANDOM ALL THE THINGS model, GRs function more like trials (but before you flip your shit, hear me out).

    You enter a GR. It's a roughly 2x2 screen arena with some terrain features, not unlike the current trial map. There is a 10 second delay, and then the first wave spawns.

    Waves can be either a group of normal enemies of mixed types, or a smaller number of normal enemies + an elite. These grant the same sorts of progress they normally do, but enemies that give no progress do not spawn, and every wave will contain weak/low progress enemies, strong/high progress enemies, and various things in between. Value will also correspond to difficulty, which means buffing the hell out of the asshole troll mobs contribution to the progress bar, and nerfing stuff like zombies. Also, many enemy types have a maximum level. The easier sorts of enemies flat out don't appear in higher level GRs. Also, this goes without saying, but no shrines/conduits (that's why I said some classes will need a buff, as Conduits are carrying them right now and the Conduit Boards don't reflect this).

    A new wave spawns the instant any of the following conditions is met:
    The elite dies (if there is one).
    90% of enemies die (if there's not one).
    A set amount of time passes (more time for elite waves).

    Unlike a trial, remaining enemies do NOT despawn. In other words, instead of the "difficulty" coming from something with 9439443594w958w9845984w9854985945045 life, it comes from being overwhelmed by an ever increasing force if you're not keeping enemies checked.

    In the event that the bar is filled before time runs out the guardian appears. No additional enemies spawn. Any enemies that were already there DO NOT DESPAWN.

    Beating the guardian gives you legendaries, and specifically balanced so that levels 26+ are most definitely better than T6. However. The reward structure is a bit changed.

    In the current system, you're there only for gems, but you get gems just by making it to the finish line. Your "reward" for beating the time is a higher level stone INSTEAD of the thing you're actually there for. Losing = winning, winning = losing. Completely ****ing backwards. So let's fix that.

    If you beat the time limit, you get a stone 1 or more levels higher AND gem levels. And you can pick any gemstone from 1 level higher - whatever level you actually unlocked. So if you get something 3-5 levels higher and don't think you can actually skip that many? Don''t do it. Take the +1-2.

    That's one option. The other option allows you to exchange trial keys for a specific legendary. You choose the type (say, Rimeheart). The item itself is generated randomly for your current class. The cost is 5 keys * the rarity number of the item (since about 1:100 1 handed swords are a Rimeheart, you'd need to grind 500 stones to get one).

    NOW. If you do NOT beat the time limit, you know what you get? Nothing. Because you lost. Also, any death in the run is a strike.

    If you personally have incurred at least one strike, you cannot select the legendary trade option. You must complete a level without dying to get that option.

    For each strike incurred by anyone in your group, the number of gem level attempts everyone gets decreases by 1. And of course, 3 strikes and you're out. Automatic failure.

    There you go, risk vs reward. Once you remove auto kills via jailer and such, punishing people for death is fair (and preventing it from being death zerged is also fair). The troll mobs are trollish now because they grant like 0.1% progress, but make that number better reflect the time they take and they're worth killing. Most importantly, this completely removes the whole insufficient enemies/cannot find next level problem and leaves you with the problem of actually killing things. Which ya know, is the point.

    The only problem is this would nerf everyone's max ranking as max rankings are determined by RNG manipulation for an ideal map and this focuses on making ideal maps less necessary by equalizing things a lot more. I suspect if it were actually done, people would get so caught in the salt of not having a Conduit I win button to realize that now more than 3% of their maps are usable. But this is my lazy try at salvaging GRs anyways.
     
  2. ron

    ron Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't like the arena style GR you describe. Just my personal opinion.

    Also, **** trials. Why have them? Normal rift guardian drops you a GR key level 1. You progress through rifts until you cant go any more. Next time you plug a key into the pillar you get a slider allowing you to select the level from 1 to the highest level GR you sucessfuly completed.

    If you didn't have to do all the BS trials, it wouldn't be a big deal to get into a high level GR and get RNG'd by crap map layout and terrible mob types. You could just start where you left off and eventually get an easier map.

    Also, remove all pylons from GR's period. And yes, the rewards for GR 25+ should be way better than they are, but I don't support the buy a legendary for X number of keystones. I just don't like it.
     
  3. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    Either pick a set map, or get trolled by map RNG. I chose a room with waves of enemies because **** GRs as jogging simulators.

    Your way leaves every form of RNG trolling in place, and makes something that was supposed to be about challenge about actively avoiding all challenge. And while removing pylons is good, only doing that and not addressing the actual problem is a Blizzard solution, and not a good solution.
     
  4. ron

    ron Diabloii.Net Member

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    There is obviously not going to be one set solution that will please everyone. I would rather do GR's under the current system than have a static map, or fend off the waves arena style map. I can't imagine a less creative solution.
     
  5. Jcakes

    Jcakes Diabloii.Net Member

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    agreed. the current system it's much better than this suggestion. I do think you should be able to select what level of grift you do (upto the highest you've completed)
     
  6. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    So people actually like RNG trolling and deliberately avoiding all challenge being called challenge seeking? Wow. Ok then.
     
  7. ron

    ron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Why do you keep saying avoiding challenge? Doing the highest GR you can without jumping through stupid hoops is as challenging as it gets right now. Eventually you would hit a GR level that you simply could not beat no matter what. That means that the challenge would be great just to clarify.

    Its also not RNG trolling. Its just RNG. Its been a part of the entire Diablo series as well as many other games that have variable drops and environments. I am fairly certain that if we had enough participation in this discussion that you would find yourself in the minority on this. Greater rifts are certainly not perfect, but they are far more challenging and interesting than some of the other crud blizzard has presented us with in the past.
     
    tougeznut likes this.
  8. Jcakes

    Jcakes Diabloii.Net Member

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    what is the highest gr you've completed?

    based on my reading of other threads, my understanding is you've competed g25 maybe?

    it is very hard to take you seriously when you say "no challenge" but haven't actually tried yourself.
     
  9. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    Doing GRs correctly involves any/all of the following:

    Spam RNGing for lots of easy enemies. You admit this yourself. Remotely difficult enemies = lose. Go ahead and show me those high level angel and anarch rifts. On HC. I'll wait while you reset for zombies.
    Sandbagging intentionally for > 10:30 completions so you only advance one level.
    Intentionally not advancing because you're just there for the gem.
    Hard counters vs hard counters. Any sorts of gradual and incremental mechanics, like say I dunno... MOST OF YOUR BLOODY CHARACTER STATS? Yeah, irrelevant. Eat your infinite scaling auto hit attacks and like it. See: Jailer vs Cameo, perma cc vs everything, etc. When a GR is done correctly enemies do not execute an attack. HOLY **** SO CHALLENGING.

    RNG has existed on loot, yes. A metric meant to be competitive and objectively measure class balance? Yeah, let's have an archery competition and do 1d1000 to determine how many yards the target is away from each competitor. BRILLIANT!

    Do you work for Blizzard? Because there are very few actual players that defend the mechanics of GRs even if they do them.

    And anyways, if you wanted challenge you'd be in favor of difficulty coming from killing enemies, and not from finding them. You'd be in favor of mechanics that specifically make it so only harder enemies spawn at higher levels. Funny how you're not.
     
  10. ron

    ron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Lyoneth#1899

    Please add me to friends. We can go 2 man some Gr's and perhaps we will better understand each other. I have only completed GR32 so far. I play every single GR I enter to win. I have never quit out of a rift due to layout or mob type. If I enter a level 33 GR and the first two floors are tough mob types I realize that I probably won't make it. That doesn't mean I quit and reroll mob types.

    Your presumption about what I am or how I play is way off the mark.

    Seriously man, if you aren't enjoying it why hang around?
     
  11. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    I see. You are on SC. Funny thing about risk vs reward discussions. When it becomes basically free, where you get the gem even if you fail the time limit and even the worst case scenario doesn't actually matter, as well as Blizzard themselves showed one guy carrying everyone through a 28, 29, and 30? Yeah, you have a lot more tolerance for foolishness, so you're fine with getting RNG trolled, at least for a while.

    By the way SC 32 < HC 22, and those are nothing. Based on the numbers (27 with over half the time left, did not have an exceptional map) I'd say low 30s on HC at least is possible for me, but until I see either more loot or a revamp that makes them not so RNG based they are just pointless.

    As for why I am still here, yes GRs are worthless content unless you want a new gem at 25, in which case you go rofflestomp some easy stuff in an hour and get it. So... I just don't do those, and instead focus on things that give actual loot since bragging about getting lucky as a serious thing is just a non starter. And as long as "competition" is purely luck based, and contingent on finding mobs instead of killing them any sort of non mechanical incentive (like say, leaderboards) doesn't matter because the high rank guy just got the easiest map he could. I want skill, not luck.

    The stuff mentioned in this thread? It was aimed at actually making them hit their design goals. You will find enemies. At higher levels they will be the harder enemies. You will not auto fail if you encounter something remotely difficult. You will fail if you do it wrong, or die a lot, etc. And at that point, go right ahead and brag about a stellar performance. It will actually matter.
     
  12. ron

    ron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Now that I know you play HC, I see why you would prefer an arena or static map. Funny that you talk about lack of challenge.

    On a totally serious note, the difference between beating GR27 with half the time left and attempting low 30's is significant. You might want to take it easy if you decide to try it. But then again thats the real point of playing HC, because after all, your deeds of valor will be remembered.

    Never understood the HC play-it-safe guys.
     
  13. Steven Hazani

    Steven Hazani Diabloii.Net Member

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    The current system: Spaulders of Zakara, death zerg through level 50 maps you leeched off of someone. Even if it takes 20 tries for one non bad map and 2 hours of extreme persistence you still get gem levels. So I completely understand why a SC person might be fine with it.

    What I suggested: Consistent density, consistent enemy presence, consistently INCREASING enemy difficulty. Yeah, asking for angels and stuff (and actually having them be worth killing) is absolutely wanting it easy and safe. Mhm. I am advocating ditching the unfair BS on both sides (no conduits, no auto hitting attacks). I am not advocating reducing the amount of legitimate challenge, far from it I am advocating increasing it.

    And the 27 was me boosting gems, because that's the only reason for GRs. I was not hitting anywhere near my peak potential, I wasn't even using the correct GR build. So once Blizzard completes the months long process of making their new content actually worth running, I will probably go in there and try it again. And perhaps the deeds will be remembered, just as they would if I d/ced in a remotely dangerous area on a farm run and died. But see, if it's not just a pointless death for no reason, if I could both gain and lose something I'm willing to do it anyways.

    And if I could completely disregard death? High 30s, minimum. I have every correct item, so it's just an RNG check for a winnable map at that point.
     

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