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How do you feel about monster immunities?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Neltharion, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. Neltharion

    Neltharion IncGamers Member

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    How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Greetings,


    how do you feel about monsters being completely immune to one type of damage?

    Before the revamped Hell difficulty with Immunities in D2 I loved being a complete Cold Sorceress or Lightning Javazon. After 1.10 I really lost interest in the game because beating Hell, even on Single Player, was an exercise in frustration. Sure, there were synergies and with them more powerful skills but at the expense of those doing nothing against about 20% of normal and 40%+ of Unique monsters.

    I recently started D2 again to get me in the mood for D3. Started up a Sorc, maxed Hydra, Frozen Orb and Thunderstorm along with having a Act2 Merc to have a fourth damage type. Guess what? Along come Frost/Fire Immune Uniques with Lightning Enchantment or Stone Skin. Can't do a thing about them. Even my Defiance Merc dies in 3-4 seconds. He didn't have bad equipement, no High Level Runewords, just some basic stuff.

    Another example, the Cold Immune Flesh Hunters in the Ruined Temple under Kurast, who guard the Black Book. Went down into the temple, approached the main room with caution and then they came. Cold/Fire Immune boss, Extra Fast, Extra Strong. They chased me to the entrance and shred me and my merc into pieces with no chance of getting my corpse again. Frustrated me so much that I deleted the Sorc and uninstalled the game, as I really wasn't looking forward to Hell Ancients with one being Frost/Fire Immunie, the other Fire/Lightning and the third Frost/Physical with Lightning, ugh.

    I hope D3 doesn't have those kinds of "fun killers" in it. I suppose Blizzard introduced the Immunities in D2 to cooperate group play on Hell Mode and to reduce the effect of synergies, but in turn made it next to impossible to complete the game for players who start up from scratch in single player or don't have access to ridiculous runewords.

    I'd like to play a Wizard totally focussed on Arcane Spells in D3 and want him to be viable through every difficuly of the game, the same should be the case for every playstyle of other classes. Sure, there can be monsters resistant to Arcane Magic, that's no problem, but just not outright immune to it.
     
  2. Starving_Poet

    Starving_Poet IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Bashiok, I believe, have stated that blanket immunities will no longer exist in D3. They have other ways of making the game more challenging.
     
  3. Jimbob

    Jimbob IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    It doesn't matter what they do. I will kill them nonetheless.
     
  4. Kiroptus

    Kiroptus IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Immunes are out of Diablo 3.
     
  5. sreda

    sreda IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    I agree, no monster should be completely immune to a certain element. Like fire golems who are immune to fire, it doesn't make sense. If I was to hit you with a big slab of meat, you would get hurt wouldn't you? Same should go for fire, or anything monsters tend to have that block out whole spell trees.

    Nothing should ever block spells completely, rather it should reduce the damage potential by a lot. At least that way there is hope.
     
  6. Ishtor

    Ishtor IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Imunities are so stupid. even if they were on only unique NPS it would make it incredibly hard. When you are a cold sorc and a unique monster is imune to you, it almost impossible to beat. If i run into cold/lightning imune thing all i can do is have my merc swing and that can take a long time when they have stone skin.
     
  7. JonoLith

    JonoLith IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Ugh... Monster Immunities = Lazy Design. (Well, at least the way D2 Went about it.)

    I think people can handle LIMITED immunity. Like... a monster goes immune to a certain type of damage if X happens, or if the enemy gets more powerful if encountering Y type of damage. But this whole idea of just saying "Nope, this type of monster can walk through a meteor shower and be totally fine" is sort of retarded.
     
  8. Akse

    Akse Banned

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    D2 system sucks.. immunities on all monsters is not fun. Some special monsters should have logical immunities where you then have to use some other abilities to destroy the enemy.

    Most other monsters should be dealt with resistances. (very high ones like Venom lords in act4 d2 are really hard to kill with Fire in earlier no immune patches.)
     
  9. AFS

    AFS IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    I agree with very limited, special-case, logical immunities, and not where the basic zombie is immune from all cold damage and can walk around in near absolute zero space to give you an idea.
     
  10. PandadudeSP

    PandadudeSP IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Well IMO I think its sad that there will be NO immunities! Immunities force you to use different means of attack and adds a tactical element to both playing and skill planning. If you could just spam fireball for 2 hours and *poof* you've made a patriarch, where would the challenge in that be? Ofc in d3 they can come up with other ways to make you vary your skill use, but I don't think immunities are such a bad idea, especially if they limit it to one immunity per creature.
     
  11. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Immunities in D2 didn't cause any type of special problem, except perhaps the first time you enter Hell and didn't expect it. Any D2 char could prepare for it.

    Immunities are a way around the 'one skill fits all'-problem (AKA Hammerdin), although there might be better solutions.
     
  12. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    It's indeed weak and bad design for a game like Diablo (it works fine for other games like JRPGs), glad they decided to remove 100% immunities ... but they could still use them in a more interesting way.

    Like monsters using certain skills or buffs that only activate for a limited time (with cool down and all) that gives them immunity against certain elements for a short time or even to direct physical attacks .... or even make them absorb certain elements and heal from them ... this way skilled players who pay attention and know what they are doing will know when to use elemental attacks against those monsters and when not to ... And since those full immunity effects are very limited and timed it will be challenging without being frustrating (which IMO D2 failed over and over to achieve).


    -----------------------------------------------


    I don't think it solved pretty much anything regarding "one-skill fits all" because they still infested the D2 servers ... it was part of D2 bad design problems and the dilemma of trying to solve bad design by making more bad design choices (like Engima) ... and like you said .. there are better smarter ways to solve those problems (both immunities and one-skill-fit-all builds).


     
  13. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    I'm afraid in that way a single element player would just wait the time it takes for the immunity to wear of and then kill the monster. Which is perhaps a little less frustrating, but frustrating anyway.

    The problem with D2 BNet is that most people are simply skipping the game completely. Immunities could have encouraged party play or hybridizing, but not when you just can get to level 90 while not doing much more than idling. If you already "finished" the game, you can then specialize in any way you want without worrying about normal questing requirements.



     
  14. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    That's assuming you will be attacked by one monster at a time .. which isn't the case .... you will be attacked by several monsters of the same kind and also mosnters of other kinds .. the catch that at any given time few of those monster might activate their buff (or have someone activate it for them like Fallen shaman revive imps) but not all of them will activate it at the same time.

    So a skilled player will be able to tell the difference and target those without the immunity buff .. or even better ... take out the caster that's casting it over them ... there is nothing frustrating about this .. it requires skill and tactics and is a fine challenge.

    I can agree with you .. but discussing it won't change much since D2 had a package of convoluted intertwined overlayed bad design problems.


     
  15. Are

    Are IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    How does that not make sense? If you are made out of fire, any fire that touches you would just make you stronger, and certainly not damage you.

    Monster immunities are one of the things I like the most about D2. It makes you actually have to think a little about the skill-distribution for characters you are making rather than just maxing everything that synergizes the one skill you want to use.



     
  16. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    That requires a system that makes such fine targeting possible and skills that require it. If targeting is anything like in D2 it *will* be frustrating and AoE skills (I can't imagine D3 without them) go around the issue altogether.



     
  17. Knight_Wolf

    Knight_Wolf IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    I really won't dare call it fine targeting .. this ain't an FPS ... i never had trouble aiming at Fallen shamen and taking them out effectively .. besides .. even the single target abilities in D3 seem to be far more explosive and destructive than in D2 .. just need to aim in the general direction of the monster and be close enough .. and that's were the challenge is specially if the monster is surrounded by many minions ... but again i see to trace of frustration at all.

    I agree .. it does make sense indeed and in many RPGs that's the case .. but ... not all RPGs has to follow the same rules ... also some say "fight fire with fire" :crazyeyes:

    A monster of fire or ice can be defeated if attacked by a stronger fire or ice that itself .. imagine an ice beast struck by a gigantic ice glacial ... it could certainly kill it.

    It is ok as long as they aren't 100% immunities .... and are smartly designed.

    ---------------------------------------------

    It always frustrated me so much when a game gives you a ton of abilities and skills to play with and when the time comes for the important fight (usually a boss fight) you couldn't simply use any of them for artificial reasons and forced restrictions ... that's just awful game design (which litters D2) cause it makes the player feel they wasted their time investing in skills that they never got to use when it really mattered ... the D2 case is quite similar.


     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2009
  18. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    It's not an FPS is exactly my point, thank you. You must have never tried a melee build. There is no fun when your way is constantly blocked by fallens and with right-click you'll target anything but the thing you want anyway. Obviously when you use Blizzard or Lightning Sentry you won't have trouble targeting Shamans, but that

    just brings us to the other point I made where it won't require any player skill anyway so we could just do away with the whole thing.



     
  19. Akse

    Akse Banned

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Yeah its so hard to spam fireball while blizzard is on cast-delay.. wow!

    Diablo 3 will be many times more complicated to play than D2 even without immunities. Monsters have more complex abilities which you need to avoid or find another way to deal damage to them (like the blocking skeletons in the gameplay movie).

    We will have other kind of obstacles where we need to use other skills than just plain boring immunity.

    Or if you play LOD you can just maximize blizzard and let your overpowered merc deal with immunes and skip the rest. Or if you decide to max lightning you can get one of those overpowered runewords to break the immunes .. whoppii.

    If you play classic you rarely bother to dual element because then you have 2 really weak skills instead of 1 average/good.



     
  20. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: How do you feel about monster immunities?

    Am I the only one who read the "greetings" in Tyrael's voice? ><





    And, some immunities did make sense. An ice monster immune to cold. Yeah, I can believe that one.

    Skeletons immune to poison, plausible :p

    etc.



    Random immunes for the heck of filling the game to the brink with immunes of some kind? Not so good.
     

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