How do you become a square if you were born a circle? ifra

[raffster]

How do you become a square if you were born a circle?

Some of you know that February this year my wife kicked me out of her life. Her main reason for getting rid of me is so that I could find myself. It has been almost seven months now since we've been apart and the truth is that I have realized more things about myself, my wife, and reality as a whole these last several months than the last 8 years we've been married. But what have those realizations really amounted to?

Needless to say, I have been through a very rough and difficult emotional roller coaster ride. Throughout the many times I have sunk into utter despair almost wanting to just end it all I found strength in hope, faith and the love that came from loved ones and friends. So many times I've also thought that formally ending the marriage was the most rational thing to do. But it seems that everytime I've made an attempt to do so I could not tell my wife that it's either she take me back or it's all over. There's a part of me that wants to move on without her but there's also that part of me that can't live without her.

The greatest challenge that beset me is the fact that my wife wants me to become a square when she knows for a fact that I was born a circle. I use this analogy because even while we were still dating my wife's expectations of me aren't expectations I have set for myself. I was born into a family where my parents never really pushed me to have a deep sense of responsibility. No, it's not that I'm a lazy slob or anything like that, it's just that I never felt that I should break my back to live a comfortable life. My wife learned responsibility the hard way when she had to be her family's main provider right after college after her family lost all their wealth because of unwise financial decisions.

My wife basically wants me to become someone that's just not who I am (or is this a limitation I have imposed upon myself?). But what she's asking for somehow makes sense and I believe that in the long run if I could become that person it is my "ticket" to becoming someone who can stand his own.

I used to think that marriage was all about making compromises. It's just really frustrating that the only way my marriage could be saved is if I will become someone I'm not and hopefully be happy being that person. Is this the price of love?

I'd like to think that I'm a lot more aware of myself now after 7 months apart but I'm actually becoming more confused as to who I am and who I should live for. Sorry for the vent. This place has always been one of my favorite venting places.

 

[Dondrei]

Marriage is about making compromises my arse...

Seriously though, I'd be careful if I were you. On the one hand, if you're a circle then you don't have to become a square; just find another circle to live with (or maybe a triangle - they might be more amenable to circles than squares are. Okay, I'll stop it with the damn analogy).

On the other hand, there may be some things that really could do with improving and maybe you should take some of it onboard. Where you draw the line between self-improvement and changing yourself to please others is one of those difficult questions in life, no-one can answer it for you.

It may be that she's totally wrong and you shouldn't change a thing or else you're compromising your identity, or it could be that you're using that as an excuse not to make important changes to the way you do things. Perhaps more likely though, it's somewhere in between. That's something only you can know.

 

[superdave]

nice to see you are still alive and kicking raff...don't be a stranger.

 

[SaroDarksbane]

“Women marry men hoping they will change. Men marry women hoping they will not. So each is inevitably disappointed.†- Albert Einstein

Knowing which parts of yourself you should change, and which parts of yourself you shouldn't have to change, is the hardest part.

 

[bg1256]

Knowing which parts of yourself you should change, and which parts of yourself you shouldn't have to change, is the hardest part.

Agreed. I think that there are changes that each of us makes as part of making sacrifices for the relationship. For example, I'm learning to become more laid-back and "fly by the seat of my pants," because that's how my GF is.

However, I wouldn't compromise my moral beliefs or charactar traits.

In the end, one must decide what one is willing to sacrifice or change for the other person without comprimising his/her identity.

 

[Module88]

My wife basically wants me to become someone that's just not who I am (or is this a limitation I have imposed upon myself?). But what she's asking for somehow makes sense and I believe that in the long run if I could become that person it is my "ticket" to becoming someone who can stand his own.

I used to think that marriage was all about making compromises. It's just really frustrating that the only way my marriage could be saved is if I will become someone I'm not and hopefully be happy being that person. Is this the price of love?

Marriage should be about making compromises. There is a difference, however, between changing who you are for yourself, and doing it just to please someone else. It's perfectly ok if you're changing it for yourself, and it just so happens to please someone else.

That said, however, what exactly is she asking you to do? Is it a reasonable request? Is SHE holding herself to the same standard she's asking you to hold up to? I mean, if she's working her butt off and you're just working part time and sitting on the couch, I can see a problem with that. It would help if we had more details.

 

[SuggestiveName]

A square is a circle up to homeomorphism. Or did I miss the point of the thread again?

 

[PatMaGroin]

Try bonsai?

 

[raffster]

That said, however, what exactly is she asking you to do? Is it a reasonable request? Is SHE holding herself to the same standard she's asking you to hold up to? I mean, if she's working her butt off and you're just working part time and sitting on the couch, I can see a problem with that. It would help if we had more details.

In the grand scheme of things I sincerely think that what she's asking for is "reasonable". But it is how she has often made me feel that whatever I do is never enough.

Before she takes me back into her life she wants me to have (or have done) the following things:
1. Lived on my own for at least 6 months to a year and prove beyond reasonable doubt that I can survive by myself.
2. Have a salary that is >80K in the next two years.
3. Put behind all the bad habits that got us into this separation (obsessive gaming and pornography, tactlessness) and not having an overall sense of direction and purpose.
4. Ready to have a family: emotionally prepared for fatherhood.

The last ten years we've been together I have been hard working but that was the only thing that I really had going for me, honestly. I guess even in writing this I am starting to see that my wife really has a point when she said that there is a "price to pay" for the kind of lifestyle we both want to live. She's willing to work, too, and that much she has committed.

With my current work experience 80K is not unrealistic but it really a loooooooooong shot. Becoming the square means straightening up the circle so that I reach for those objectives that she is asking for.

Bah!!! I guess the question is do I love her enough to do what she asks. It's so difficult to have these realizations and live with the fact that we're going to be apart for awhile. I'm just too weak being alone. What if there's someone out there who will love me for who I am and here I am trying so hard to make this marriage work when there is a 50% possibility that I may never really be truly happy with my wife. :cry:

 

[PatMaGroin]

1. Lived on my own for at least 6 months to a year and prove beyond reasonable doubt that I can survive by myself.

Seems like a 'check' so far.

3. Put behind all the bad habits that got us into this separation (obsessive gaming and pornography, tactlessness) and not having an overall sense of direction and purpose.

That's probably a good idea, even without the relationship ultimatum.

2. Have a salary that is >80K in the next two years.

In all honesty, that's bull****. If she's basing her assessment of you on how much money you make, well, that's not how a marriage should be, or any relationship for that matter. If it were more along the lines of 'Have the motivation and drive to WANT to make X amount of money' then that's fine, but otherwise, I'm not a big fan of this list.

 

[Bortaz]

The question is, would you rather call in sick so you can play Diablo 2, or be married and earn a living like a responsible adult?

Time after time after time, I've seen you post this very thing on these forums. Your wife finally got tired of it. I don't blame her.

 

[Module88]

In the grand scheme of things I sincerely think that what she's asking for is "reasonable". But it is how she has often made me feel that whatever I do is never enough.

Specific examples? People can be pushy, but I mean, if someone asks you to do the dishes, and you do them but chunks of food are still on the plate, pushing for you to clean a little harder isn't an unreasonable request.

Before she takes me back into her life she wants me to have (or have done) the following things:
1. Lived on my own for at least 6 months to a year and prove beyond reasonable doubt that I can survive by myself.

She was someone who can take care of himself, and can consequently take care of her (although I'd think she's willing to reciprocate).

2. Have a salary that is >80K in the next two years.

I'm not sure about this, as that varies, so I'll let you decide. More on that below

3. Put behind all the bad habits that got us into this separation (obsessive gaming and pornography, tactlessness) and not having an overall sense of direction and purpose.

She's your wife. She wants to spend SOME time with you. Unless she's asking you to stop playing entirely and spend all of your time with her, this seems perfectly reasonable. She wants to spend some time with you (while allowing you some gaming time), she doesn't want you looking at other naked women, and she doesn't want you being stupid. This seems hardly unreasonable. It's not fair to you for her to push herself on you. At the same time, however, it's hardly fair for you to just play games all day while she works and then not spend any time with her after she gets home.

4. Ready to have a family: emotionally prepared for fatherhood.

I certainly hope you discussed this before getting married. This shouldn't be a, "holy ****! You want kids?!" thing.

The last ten years we've been together I have been hard working but that was the only thing that I really had going for me, honestly. I guess even in writing this I am starting to see that my wife really has a point when she said that there is a "price to pay" for the kind of lifestyle we both want to live. She's willing to work, too, and that much she has committed.

If she's willing to do the same thing, I can't help but think she wants whats best for you. She's asking you to shape up. To stop being another guy, and be a man who could support a family and be a good father and husband. As you get older responsibilites will shift.

Personally, I don't think her requests are too unreasonable. As far as the money is concerned, it seems to me like she just wants to be able to support a family with that income (coupled with her statement about having a family) and not have to worry when it comes time to pay for the sports and things like that. I don't think that's an unreasonable request as well, especially considering she's willing to work full time too.

Bah!!! I guess the question is do I love her enough to do what she asks.

I think the question really is, "do you care about yourself enough to do what she asks"? I HONESTLY believe she wants what's best for both of you. Though part of her requests are obviously important to her (family, spending time with each other), I honestly believe that doing those things will be good for you as well. From my perspective, it seems like you're more devoted to games and porn than your wife. From what you said, I get the impression that you don't spend too much time with her, at least emotionally.

You have said that you think that these are "reasonable" requests, but let me actually ask you so that you get a different perspective on it.

1. Is it unreasonable for her to want to spend the rest of her life with someone who can take care of himself, at the very least?
2. Is it unreasonable for her to want to spend more time with you?
3. Is it unreasonable for her to not want her husband watch other naked people (who pretty much lack the emotional connection married couples should have) have sex?
4. Is it unreasonable for her to want someone who can emotionally and financially support future children?

People will undoubtedly change as they get older. Do you REALLY want to spend the rest of your life solely playing games, watching porn, and being tactless?

The fact that your wife hasn't formally ended the marriage should tell you something. She cares about you mate. The question is, do you care about yourself and your marriage enough to do something about it? How many people just give up on a marriage? She hasn't given up on you, and I think it's unfair to her for you to give up on yourself. You can do these things, and if I didn't honestly think it would be good for you, I wouldn't suggest that you do it.

It's so difficult to have these realizations and live with the fact that we're going to be apart for awhile. I'm just too weak being alone. What if there's someone out there who will love me for who I am and here I am trying so hard to make this marriage work when there is a 50% possibility that I may never really be truly happy with my wife. :cry:

If she didn't love you for who you were, she wouldn't be with you anymore. Playing games and watching porn is NOT who you are. They're thing you might enjoy, but is she REALLY asking you to change your personality? She wants to spend more time with you, and wants you to stop looking at other people have sex. Is that really changing who you ARE?


Of course, in the end, I'm just an eighteen year old bra phobic zombie slayer. So if you don't take my advice, I won't be offended. :laugh:



Edit:

In all honesty, that's bull****. If she's basing her assessment of you on how much money you make, well, that's not how a marriage should be, or any relationship for that matter. If it were more along the lines of 'Have the motivation and drive to WANT to make X amount of money' then that's fine, but otherwise, I'm not a big fan of this list.

Pat, call me a fool, but I don't think it's about the money, so much as it is about supporting a future family. The fact that she's with him tells me that it's not about the money. The fact that she said she wants raff to be ready to be a father and raise a family only supports my assertion. But what the hell do I know. :grin:

 

[Amra]

raff, have you considered a 12 Step program?

 

[PatMaGroin]

Pat, call me a fool, but I don't think it's about the money, so much as it is about supporting a future family. The fact that she's with him tells me that it's not about the money. The fact that she said she wants raff to be ready to be a father and raise a family only supports my assertion. But what the hell do I know. :grin:

Maybe, but it doesn't take that much to support a family, especially if she's going to be working too, which I'm pretty sure of. Hell, my parents managed to own a house, spoil the hell out of me, buy a new car every three years, and have outstanding credit on less than that.

 

[Module88]

Maybe, but it doesn't take that much to support a family, especially if she's going to be working too, which I'm pretty sure of. Hell, my parents managed to own a house, spoil the hell out of me, buy a new car every three years, and have outstanding credit on less than that.

Depends on where you live, no? I don't doubt that you couldn't support a family off of 80k, but can you support one comfortably? Go to the movies once a month? Take the kids to dinner? I'm not a mom, but if I were, I'd want more than just the ability to support my kids with bare necessities.

 

[Dondrei]

A square is a circle up to homeomorphism. Or did I miss the point of the thread again?

*Homeomorphs SuggestiveName into a coffee cup*

P.S. Did you ever know that you're my hero?

 

[Dondrei]

In the grand scheme of things I sincerely think that what she's asking for is "reasonable". But it is how she has often made me feel that whatever I do is never enough.

Before she takes me back into her life she wants me to have (or have done) the following things:
1. Lived on my own for at least 6 months to a year and prove beyond reasonable doubt that I can survive by myself.
2. Have a salary that is >80K in the next two years.
3. Put behind all the bad habits that got us into this separation (obsessive gaming and pornography, tactlessness) and not having an overall sense of direction and purpose.
4. Ready to have a family: emotionally prepared for fatherhood.

The last ten years we've been together I have been hard working but that was the only thing that I really had going for me, honestly. I guess even in writing this I am starting to see that my wife really has a point when she said that there is a "price to pay" for the kind of lifestyle we both want to live. She's willing to work, too, and that much she has committed.

With my current work experience 80K is not unrealistic but it really a loooooooooong shot. Becoming the square means straightening up the circle so that I reach for those objectives that she is asking for.

Bah!!! I guess the question is do I love her enough to do what she asks. It's so difficult to have these realizations and live with the fact that we're going to be apart for awhile. I'm just too weak being alone. What if there's someone out there who will love me for who I am and here I am trying so hard to make this marriage work when there is a 50% possibility that I may never really be truly happy with my wife. :cry:

Is 80k a lot in America? It is here.

Erm, I've noticed that one of her criteria was for you to demonstrate some independence but you've said you'll do anything she wants because you're "too weak to be alone"... that might be a contradiction.

Learning to live with independence is important; even within a marriage you have to maintain a certain level of self-reliance or you just end up with one person leaning on the other, and that's not good for either. You might want to rethink your approach to that one, that's all I'm saying.

As for having children, don't agree to that unless you're 100% certain that YOU want it too, and YOU think you are ready for it. Otherwise you're doing not only yourself a disservice but also her and the child. If you have to sacrifice the relationship then that's what you have to do. That's my advice anyway.

 

[PFS]

Maybe, but it doesn't take that much to support a family, especially if she's going to be working too, which I'm pretty sure of. Hell, my parents managed to own a house, spoil the hell out of me, buy a new car every three years, and have outstanding credit on less than that.

From the last time this came up I don't think it's a number carved in stone, more that she wants him to get into a job with decent future prospects.

 

[TonoTheHero]

Some of you know that February this year my wife kicked me out of her life. Her main reason for getting rid of me is so that I could find myself. It has been almost seven months now since we've been apart and the truth is that I have realized more things about myself, my wife, and reality as a whole these last several months than the last 8 years we've been married. But what have those realizations really amounted to?

Needless to say, I have been through a very rough and difficult emotional roller coaster ride. Throughout the many times I have sunk into utter despair almost wanting to just end it all I found strength in hope, faith and the love that came from loved ones and friends. So many times I've also thought that formally ending the marriage was the most rational thing to do. But it seems that everytime I've made an attempt to do so I could not tell my wife that it's either she take me back or it's all over. There's a part of me that wants to move on without her but there's also that part of me that can't live without her.

The greatest challenge that beset me is the fact that my wife wants me to become a square when she knows for a fact that I was born a circle. I use this analogy because even while we were still dating my wife's expectations of me aren't expectations I have set for myself. I was born into a family where my parents never really pushed me to have a deep sense of responsibility. No, it's not that I'm a lazy slob or anything like that, it's just that I never felt that I should break my back to live a comfortable life. My wife learned responsibility the hard way when she had to be her family's main provider right after college after her family lost all their wealth because of unwise financial decisions.

My wife basically wants me to become someone that's just not who I am (or is this a limitation I have imposed upon myself?). But what she's asking for somehow makes sense and I believe that in the long run if I could become that person it is my "ticket" to becoming someone who can stand his own.

I used to think that marriage was all about making compromises. It's just really frustrating that the only way my marriage could be saved is if I will become someone I'm not and hopefully be happy being that person. Is this the price of love?

I'd like to think that I'm a lot more aware of myself now after 7 months apart but I'm actually becoming more confused as to who I am and who I should live for. Sorry for the vent. This place has always been one of my favorite venting places.

If you love her, don't make it go sour by being with her in a way that doesn't pleases you.

As it is now it sounds like this is rubbing you the wrong way. It's sounds like what she asks of you isn't something that can really be done without breaking it up with her from your side (standing on your own two legs and all) and in that case, if the time comes, remember she's not taking you back as much as you're starting a new. That's how I'd see it, If you're like this now changing just for her and not by yourself for yourself (which of course, holds the opportunity to see if you still want to love and live with her up ahead) Could leave you with sour baggage.

All in all, she left you because you're not what she wants. you know very well her reasoning since she's been your wife and love now for quite some time. If your lust for improvement makes you what she wants again, and you want her - give it a second shot. You'll know. right now it isn't an option though.

Cut it off(as it already is broken up "move to common ground" I'd call it) - improve, and see if you want her. That's the most sensible thing I can come up with.

 

[HAMC8112]

A square is a circle up to homeomorphism. Or did I miss the point of the thread again?

Yet again! You troublemaker!

Maybe he needs plexi glass pants.

Anyway, it seems the OP is not convinced himself. So, i'd say get on with your life without her as, IN MY VIEW, you'll never be happy with her.

Do you really think that you'll ever forget how she forces you to be someone you are not? Sure, you can play charades for a while but it will come back to bite you.

Thats the thing with wearing a mask, sooner or later it will fall off and than you are back where you started.