How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

could u expound on this or give examples ?

If something has a cause you can predict what will happen. However, you cannot predict exactly when e.g. a single radioactive atom will decay (e.g. when the tunnel effect will allow an alpha particle to leave the nucleus because of the uncertainty relation). You can only make a prediction about the probability. You don't know why an atom decayed at a particular time and not a bit earlier or later.

The real world isn't about single atoms, however. For example, 235g of uranium 235 (a thumb-sized lump of metal) consists of about 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms and making statistics about such an incredible number of probabilities will lead to almost exact predictions about the number of atoms decaying per year, second or nanosecond.

In short, quantum physics is a lot about probabilities, not about exact predictions. In the real world, causality is an excellent approximation, but there are a few cases where quantum effects have a considerable effect on ourselves. Recommended reading/googling: Schrödinger's cat.

It's not that we just cannot measure two complementary attributes of something beyond a certain precision (like momentum and location... there are more pairs of complementary attributes) while both are actually precise. They really aren't more precise than that.

i'm not a quantum physics mathematician or professor, and i am horrible at math, but i understand the concepts very well, so u can talk about advanced things, but leave the math out

I don't mean to brag or to cut off the discussion, but I studied physics, although I don't consider myself as an expert about the issue.

 

[The Sandcat]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Well,the world as we experience it is a simulation of our brain.It interprets sensory input into something we can make sense of.But as dreams and hallucinations show,what we experience does not neccessarily have to be real.
Some Buddhists believe we are spirits who are dreaming this world.weird!
Anyway, when you split matter into ever smaller pieces,in the end you find nothing but forces and charges.No physicist knows what makes things exist in the first place.
So mabe the universe is just a big dream in the mind of god? Problem is, how did he come to be?

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

If something has a cause you can predict what will happen. However, you cannot predict exactly when e.g. a single radioactive atom will decay (e.g. when the tunnel effect will allow an alpha particle to leave the nucleus because of the uncertainty relation). You can only make a prediction about the probability. You don't know why an atom decayed at a particular time and not a bit earlier or later.

The real world isn't about single atoms, however. For example, 235g of uranium 235 (a thumb-sized lump of metal) consists of about 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms and making statistics about such an incredible number of probabilities will lead to almost exact predictions about the number of atoms decaying per year, second or nanosecond.

In short, quantum physics is a lot about probabilities, not about exact predictions. In the real world, causality is an excellent approximation, but there are a few cases where quantum effects have a considerable effect on ourselves. Recommended reading/googling: Schrödinger's cat.

It's not that we just cannot measure two complementary attributes of something beyond a certain precision (like momentum and location... there are more pairs of complementary attributes) while both are actually precise. They really aren't more precise than that.


I don't mean to brag or to cut off the discussion, but I studied physics, although I don't consider myself as an expert about the issue.

cool!

i loved the input, u know far more detail into the physics (the workings of radio active decay and other atomic-sub atomic level processes, quantum mechanics) than i do, and now i'd love to chat with u more on physics! i love physics, i find it very interesting and fascinating if u don't mind that is

maybe i'd (or we, if ur interested in answering or discussing many physics things-concepts with me) better start a off-topic new thread: physics discussion. lol

though, i'm more of a "theoretical" or "concept" person than a "math" or "detailed-specifics" person when it comes to physics. i understand the general or broad ideas-concepts very very well, but as to the specific and more detailed workings of those ideas-concepts, i'm not very knowledgible of.

and i certainlly haven't gone into actual quantum mechanics. i know very little of the actual "mechanics" of quantum mechanics.

for example:

i understand all the macro physics (blackholes and all that comes with them) and some of the newer discoveries into micro physics really well, but i didn't even know about how radioactive decay actual works or the ..i'm guessing here as to what u were talking about... the uncertainty of quantum mechanics due to not being able to know both the velocity and location of an electron at the same time paradox

 

[SnickerSnack]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

the E-M force explains how the table can be and is solid ("hard") despite that it's made up of atoms that are 99% empty space or nothing. but, it doesn't explain why or how we see the table, why don't we see the 99% empty space that it is made of, why do we see a table when there is no table, it's just empty space. how is there a visable table from empty space?

If a photon gets close enough to a molecule of something, then the photon will be absorbed and then remitted, right?

It is a statistical impossibility (meaning very, very unlikely) that a given photon will enter the space the table occupies and, moving in a straight line, fail to hit one of the molecules in the table. It can happen, but so few photons actually make it through, that we don't see them, that is, we don't see the floor when looking down at the table.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

If a photon gets close enough to a molecule of something, then the photon will be absorbed and then remitted, right?

It is a statistical impossibility (meaning very, very unlikely) that a given photon will enter the space the table occupies and, moving in a straight line, fail to hit one of the molecules in the table. It can happen, but so few photons actually make it through, that we don't see them, that is, we don't see the floor when looking down at the table.

u seem to know more about this than i do, but i'll try a response anyways even if i'm the less knowledgible person about this, lol:

as to your first comment,

it depends on the "pigment" or chemicals of the molecule, if that photon (particle of light) will be absorbed or blocked (bounced back).

being that the table is seen as brown colored, a dark color close to black, i'm gonna assume, that most of the spectrum of light of that photon is absorbed by the table's atoms-molecules.

as to your second comment,

this sounds "right", your probably on to something with this.

okay maybe we do kinda know how the table is both solid and visable, despite the "table" being made up of a bunch of 99% empty space or nothing (atoms-molecules).

 

[PFSS]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

It is a statistical impossibility (meaning very, very unlikely) that a given photon will enter the space the table occupies and, moving in a straight line, fail to hit one of the molecules in the table. It can happen, but so few photons actually make it through, that we don't see them, that is, we don't see the floor when looking down at the table.

I think there is a lot more to it than that, otherwise you would not be able to have a meter think glass panel that you can see through clearly.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

ya, this subject-question is very complicated.... in fact NO human truly understands it fully, not even all the super smart scientists, this is still beyond our scientific understanding as of right now.

but i think he is on to the right track even if there's a lot more involved its a good start, that begins to make sense in how its possible.

human sight and visable light and light spectrum all working together is extremely complicated and very messy. i don't think there's any super smart scientist who understands this. or maybe they jsut haven't shared it with the public yet or i jsut haven't come across it yet

let's jsut be glad we CAN see, even if we don't understand how we actually see

maybe the best person to adress this is a blind person, they have much more insight (pun fully intended), than us who can see and are biased due to the perspective of having sight, where a blind person doesnt.

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

We also don't understand what gravitation or what electrical charges are. We are just used to the explanations for their effects. However, the difference between quantum mechanics and classical mechanics is that the latter is based on far simpler math than quantum mechanics. Speed is distance divided by time while e.g. probability density is a nasty integral, simply spoken.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

We also don't understand what gravitation or what electrical charges are. -krischan
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string theory (well it is far more complicated and has much more and far reaching applications):

EVERYTHING is "strings" or patterns of energy-waves or matter (matter and energy-waves are actually the same thing but thats another matter)

or the old quantum theory (well it is far more complicated and has much more and far reaching applications):

EVERYTHING is "particles" (balls-spheres) of energy-waves or matter (matter and energy-waves are actually the same thing but thats another matter)

though u are right still krischan, what are these "particles" or "strings" (even though we can't even "see" them. they are imaginary, NOT real, as of now. we can only detect their effects) ??

think of particles or strings as "bullets" (except, *try* to imagine having NO idea what a bullet is, or even looks like), but we can see-detect the damage that these "bullets" have done, but we've NEVER found a single "bullet" (particle or string) yet.

yet, based on the see-detection of the damage-effect, we make all these super advanced theories with the help of math of course.

 

[SnickerSnack]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

I think there is a lot more to it than that, otherwise you would not be able to have a meter think glass panel that you can see through clearly.

Glass is translucent because of the crystalline structure of the material and the photo-electric properties of the material. I'm making a general description because I'm not a materials engineer, but it really is that simple.

ya, this subject-question is very complicated.... in fact NO human truly understands it fully, not even all the super smart scientists, this is still beyond our scientific understanding as of right now.

I disagree, since I'm quite sure that that field is very well developed.

probability density is a nasty integral

Poppycock. All pdfs integrate to 1. :wink:

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Yes, I was a bit unclear. Probability density isn't the integral (which is 1, as you said), but the integrand.

 

[SaroDarksbane]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

The real question for me is, do I really care if I was in such a simulation?

If this was the Matrix from the movie, well, personally I'm with Cipher. I'd rather be in than out.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Seems the people outside the Matrix are just as much at the mercy of the machines as the people inside the matrix. Atleast inside it you're comfortable.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

extemely good points, the last two posters.

but, there's some people who favor "truth" even if its much more despairing, than a comfortable and wonderful lie or fake (simulation)

if the "matrix", "simulation", or "zoo" (how ever u wanna describe it), involves a bunch of cute girls...i'm with cipher! i'll take the *comfortable* lie without hesitation and not a single thought of regret in that decision ever

i apologize for my male shallowness in such a sophisted philosophical topic-subject as the "matrix" concept

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

The problem is, as long as you are in, you might not know for sure about the motives of those who operate it.

Matrix: As said, the machines only need the humans as energy source and as soon as they solve that problem in a more efficient way, the matrix will be switched off and all humans killed.

Zoo: If there are too many animals in a zoo and they cannot be sold to a different zoo, they will often be slaughtered and fed to the carnivores. The yellow press makes a "scandal" out of it here when they don't have other things to write.

Scientific experiment: If we are just like rats running through a labyrinth, we might go to the test lab for brain surgery when the scientists are through with their labyrinth experiments.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

The problem is, as long as you are in, you might not know for sure about the motives of those who operate it.

Matrix: As said, the machines only need the humans as energy source and as soon as they solve that problem in a more efficient way, the matrix will be switched off and all humans killed.

Yes but the humans in Zions can all be killed at a whim if the machines wish that aswell. The only reason that Zion made it through the matrix series is that the machines made a promise to Neo to spare Zion if he defeated Smith and for some stupid reason the machines held that promise.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

man, its been a long long time since i seen matrix...but didn't the machines finally find zion (they finally found it and were digging to it) but neil? or neo? (keeunu reeves) used his super powers at the last moment and protected-saved zion...??

the matrix was confusing and advanced enough at the time i was watching it that made it hard to understand then with what exactly was going on, let alone trying to remember back to it now, and discussing it...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and very very nice point about smith...

it never occured to me that smith (as like the virus multiplying thing he became) might actually be a threat to the machines as well. i always thought he WAS the machines personal and 100% loyal enforcer...never occured that he could-would be a threat to the machines as well... very nice poiint.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

man, its been a long long time since i seen matrix...but didn't the machines finally find zion (they finally found it and were digging to it) but neil? or neo? (keeunu reeves) used his super powers at the last moment and protected-saved zion...??

and very very nice point about smith...

it never occured to me that smith (as like the virus multiplying thing he became) might actually be a threat to the machines as well. i always thought he WAS the machines personal and 100% loyal enforcer...never occured that he could-would be a threat to the machines as well... very nice poiint.

Smith became a virus that spread all over the matrix and was about to spread to the rest of the machines city. Neo went to the machine city while the machines where overuning Zion, killing people after destroying the defense tower. Neo told the machines he would stop smith in exchange for the machines sparing Zion. Neo then connected to the matrix from the machine city and let Smith kill him because killing Neo was Smiths goal and leting him accomplish that would rob him all purpose for his existance.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

ah cool thanks

i'm gonna guess, that the machines keep their agreement with neo, because neo could probably destroy the machines at any time too if he wanted...thouh than why wouldn't he destroy the mahcines... lol...oh wait...that powerplant moment (or am i taking this from anoterh movie..) speech of "man needs "power plant" and "power plant" needs man..."

and the mahcines know as well they need man too. maybe still need man even if or after or should they find anotehr fuel source.

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Smith became a virus that spread all over the matrix and was about to spread to the rest of the machines city. Neo went to the machine city while the machines where overuning Zion, killing people after destroying the defense tower. Neo told the machines he would stop smith in exchange for the machines sparing Zion. Neo then connected to the matrix from the machine city and let Smith kill him because killing Neo was Smiths goal and leting him accomplish that would rob him all purpose for his existance.

Staying in the Matrix has a 0% chance of changing things while escape gives you at least a bit of it and as the Architect said, hope is the greatest strength of humans (but also their greatest weakness). Of course, if you know that the matrix will persist for long enough to give you a pleasant life, it might be fine, but knowing about it might have a severe impact on what you believe to be the meaning of your life. So both knowing and not knowing has severe consequences, no matter whether you take the red or the blue pill.

The machines held their promise because they might have another Ms Smith problem later and if they had betrayed the humans, the price for help might be higher next time or they refuse to cooperate in any way. However, that doesn't mean they won't kill all humans if they can get their energy from elsewhere. The Mr Smith problem just exists because the Matrix has to be imperfect (and thus have unpleasant side effects like Mr Smith) to make people happy and thus have functional energy sources. With no Matrix there would be no imperfections and thus no Mr Smith.