How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

[Breakdown]

How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

The "brain in a vat" theory used in the matrix gives the human the ability to feel every single human emotion, scent, sight, and touch just through the mind. If I remember correctly from my psychology class this is from direct stimulus to the brain stem and the different parts of your brain that triggers these sensations. Meaning that there is no need for a body, skull or face. Isn't is scary to think that this world might just be one big illusion and in reality we're just brains floating in a tub of liquid.

I believe it is entirely possible. The "simulation argument" makes the assumption that the ongoing development of computers and increasing computing power could potentially increase to the point where perfectly life-like historical simulations of the past are possible. Based on this assumption it then poses three conflicting hypothesis for the future - one of which MUST be correct...

1. That mankind will become extinct before it has the chance to build computers powerful enough to perfectly simulate the real-world and run 'historical simulations'

2. That mankind WILL survive long enough to develop computers powerful enough to run these simulations but won't actually, for whatever reason, create and run the simulations

3. That mankind WILL survive long to develop the simulations and WILL choose to create and run them.

If hypothesis 1 or 2 are correct then we have nothing to worry about. However if hypothesis 3 IS correct then it is entirely possible, and actually quite probable, that we are all already living in one of these historical simulations without realizing it.

Worth doing more research on if you are interested. Mind-bending stuff.

 

[Glurin]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Reminds me of the saying "I think, therefore, I am." Its the one and only thing that I can know with absolute certainty. I don't even know that any of you exist. You could all be just an illusion and I am the only real being that exists. :crazyeyes:

As for the hypothesis you posted:

1. Certainly possible. Just a question of time. The world could end a week from next Tuesday for all we know. :thumbup:

2. Impossible. I'm sure some people will choose not to enter these simulations, but I guarantee you that at the very least, the vast majority of the gaming community would jump at the opportunity.

3. See number two.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

No it's not possible because for every peice of data stored in the simulator there needs to be a solid physical object to store it on. A simulator of the whole planet realistic enough to trick us all would have to be atleast the size of the planet itself to begin with.

 

[Fists of War]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

If you are talking about "solid physical objects" as storage devices ... then we can assume that if a simulation this large is able to be created, a storage device of suitable size can also be created. If technology advances far enough to create simulations of this scale, then storage technology will also advance.

Although you could possibly be right - maybe barriers in data storage technology could also stop this kind of simulation from working.

EDIT: As soon as I hit the reply button, I thought that maybe the simulation could be handled in real time, using the human body's brain for the computing power :O

 

[Spinns]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Maybe not a matrix illusion but perhaps as Descartes suggested perhaps we are all demon possessed or perhaps I/we are the only true humans and everyone else is an automaton

Man Descartes had some crazy ideas, especially for his time and all everyone remembers from him is "I think therefore I am".

 

[Dondrei]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Please, please find a less lame point of reference for this sci-fi cliche than those movies.

No it's not possible because for every peice of data stored in the simulator there needs to be a solid physical object to store it on. A simulator of the whole planet realistic enough to trick us all would have to be atleast the size of the planet itself to begin with.

But most people actually walk around in, what, 0.001% of it? And it only has to feed you the idea or sensation of an apple, not a complete atom-for-atom replica.

 

[PFSS]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

No it's not possible because for every peice of data stored in the simulator there needs to be a solid physical object to store it on. A simulator of the whole planet realistic enough to trick us all would have to be atleast the size of the planet itself to begin with.

You could use library to get some level of efficiency - I mean how many grains of sand do you need in a database to make it realistic enough to trick someone?

Also - we could, under this theory, be viewing the universe at a lower resolution than actually exists which would save a lot of data again.

Not that I believe in the Matrix.

 

[Ash Housewares]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

I'm sure we're capable of creating alot of stupid ****

but why would we?

maybe its some elaborate crappy japanese dating sim, I bet they'd do it

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

No it's not possible because for every peice of data stored in the simulator there needs to be a solid physical object to store it on. A simulator of the whole planet realistic enough to trick us all would have to be atleast the size of the planet itself to begin with.

You don't have to simulate all of the world, just the parts which you can sense. At this moment, the universe is reduced for me to the room I'm currently in, for example.

As long as you cannot distinguish the "truth" from a simulation of it, there is no point in making a difference.

 

[Dirty_Zulu]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

You could use library to get some level of efficiency - I mean how many grains of sand do you need in a database to make it realistic enough to trick someone?

Also - we could, under this theory, be viewing the universe at a lower resolution than actually exists which would save a lot of data again.

Not that I believe in the Matrix.

You don't need to simulate the grains of sand. You just need to tell the brain there is sand.

 

[Galabab]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Johny is right.
And its not sufficient to just simulate a part of the world. If we are talking about historical simulation, that is.

You know that butterfly in china thing which can create a tornado by flipping its wings. By a chain of events. Some dog smells 2 molecules more of whatever and truns his head. Its master sees it and beats his dog. And so on...

I had an ideo some years ago now. I thought off a possibility to kind of revive dead.
All you need is a photograph of lets say London on present day and a computer super strong. It would calculate all the worlds molecules, how they had to be positioned and all the history had to have existed for this exact picture to be taken. Then you could just take a person out of this simulation. Could be anybody from Anaxegoras to Sadam Hussein or your dead wife.

BUT! AS Johny said,
for a real simulation we need as many storage units as elements in the testing environment.
Even moreso at microscopic level. Heisenbergs uncertainty principle comes into play.
Meaning that any determenistic view is outdated becouse there is no certain postition of elementary particles.
(btw quantum physics are pretty much proven. If it was wrong you would not be reading this as computers use quantum physical phenomena to run)

There is only one hope for all these dreams. That hopes name is Quantum computers.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

But most people actually walk around in, what, 0.001% of it? And it only has to feed you the idea or sensation of an apple, not a complete atom-for-atom replica.

But scientists are constantly looking at the atomic level. Not only would it take up a great ammount of storage, you would need a processor that performs a physical action for everything in the world that is actualy happening. This processor would also need a power source that that is effected by physical action to generate the energy needed for the processor.

It's like if you wan't a machine that spins a wheel one full circle, something has to first spin in a circle that then powers a generator to spin in a circle which then transfers power to the wheel that actualy spins so that someone can fully experience it spinning. The only reason that computers can store so much information is that everything we don't experience doesn't actualy exist.

You could ofcourse make the case that our planet is infact one hundred times as big as the simulation appears to be which would leave plenty of room for all the hardware but since such a setup would use up thousands of times more energy than could possibly be generated from the humans which begs to question the point of the whole thing. They might aswell just slaughter the whole bunch of us then and use whatever powers the matrix to power themselves instead and save a whole lot of power in the process.

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

You just have to do a simulation on an atomic level for those atoms the scientists are looking at. In general, if certain things aren't a part of what we are sensing, they don't have to be simulated. Which brings us to the question if it makes a sound when a tree falls in the forest and nobody is listening :smug:

 

[Nazdakka]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Possible. But assuming we are living in a perfect simulation...

1) How could we possibly find out?

..and

2) Would it, ultimately, make any difference to anything?

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

The machines would probably make a movie about it inside the Matrix to really throw people off when someone suggests it.

 

[krischan]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Possible. But assuming we are living in a perfect simulation...

1) How could we possibly find out?

..and

2) Would it, ultimately, make any difference to anything?

1. We couldn't, else it wouldn't be perfect.

2. That depends on the goals of those who make the simulation. In the Matrix movies, it would make sense to break free, as the machines will certainly kill all humans as soon as they find an alternate energy source. Not that their energy problem or their way of solving it is plausible... but it's just a movie.

 

[Galabab]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

Not that their energy problem or their way of solving it is plausible... but it's just a movie.

Haha thats exactly it!
Its so stupid! They feed humans with one form of energy to get an other...
They dont know how to burn stuff
I hate the whole movie cuz its basic foundation, the very reason of all is totally idiotic.

 

[SnickerSnack]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

This is a link to something that I read once (link not currently working): http://www.simulation-argument.com/

This link works: http://web.archive.org/web/20080105101227/http://www.simulation-argument.com/

It basically covers everything we could discuss here. Very good read.


One thing to remember, Galabab and Johnny, is that if we are in a computer simulation, then the laws of our world need not apply to the world in which the computer exists. There maybe be no uncertainty principle or no Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

But scientists are constantly looking at the atomic level. Not only would it take up a great ammount of storage, you would need a processor that performs a physical action for everything in the world that is actualy happening. This processor would also need a power source that that is effected by physical action to generate the energy needed for the processor.

It's like if you wan't a machine that spins a wheel one full circle, something has to first spin in a circle that then powers a generator to spin in a circle which then transfers power to the wheel that actualy spins so that someone can fully experience it spinning. The only reason that computers can store so much information is that everything we don't experience doesn't actualy exist.

You could ofcourse make the case that our planet is infact one hundred times as big as the simulation appears to be which would leave plenty of room for all the hardware but since such a setup would use up thousands of times more energy than could possibly be generated from the humans which begs to question the point of the whole thing. They might aswell just slaughter the whole bunch of us then and use whatever powers the matrix to power themselves instead and save a whole lot of power in the process.

You don't have to simulate the actual atoms, you just feed the scientist's brain the impression of looking through an electron microscope.

Or are we talking about the premise of the actual Matrix movies? Because that's just plain retarded.

 

[Johnny]

Re: How do we know life is real? Is a Matrix theory possible?

You don't have to simulate the actual atoms, you just feed the scientist's brain the impression of looking through an electron microscope.

So you put a jpeg at the lens? How does that account for manipulation of the object?