How do we end the Mulsim vs Non-muslim war?

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
How do we end the Mulsim vs Non-muslim war?

I want to be clear, that I already see this as a world war. The battles are not just occuring between Al Qaida and America and Europe but are throughout many parts of the world where Muslims share a coutry with non-muslims. India has had serious problems for years, southern Thailand is a hot bed of death right now and lets not forget places like the Philippines or Indonesia or Darfur where hundreds of thousands have been killed.

What do you think is causing it and how can it be stopped? Please do not suggest genocide as I don't want your banning on my head. :innocent:
 

Gertlex

Banned
I like the way you look at it as a world problem (as in I see the logic and tend to agree).

It also lends a bit of strength to my view that it isn't "our" culture that needs to change, but "theirs." I know I'm grouping together and generalizing, but your situation puts it as the Muslim culture versus many cultures. In this case, I think the minority is in the wrong.

Then too, there's the issues between Shiites and Sunnis; I get a sense that part of the world issues are a result of the two sides appealing to everyone else to intervene for them.

I guess I just don't have a solution... cultures/beliefs have to change.
 

Lyrs

Diabloii.Net Member
Note: It's spelled Muslim, not Mulsim.

Regardless,

Right now, I have more to fear from Christianity than I do of Islam.
 

Athelstan

Diabloii.Net Member
Note: It's spelled Muslim, not Mulsim.

Regardless,

Right now, I have more to fear from Christianity than I do of Islam.
Lets not turn this into yet another Christianity vs. Islam thread. Was Christianity really that big of a factor in the recent Muslim outrage over the cartoons? Didn't that have more to do with western values vs. islamic values?



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Kind of an academic question given that there isn't one actually happening. Except in the minds of the extremists on both sides anyway.

And that's funny, take a conflict in one part of the world involving Muslims and one in another and another and then say there's a world war between Muslims and non-Muslims.

*Looks at Africa and concludes there's a world war between Animists and non-Animists*
 

Drosselmeier

Diabloii.Net Member
The only place I see acts of war carried out is in the middle east. There's a real easy way to stop that. Do not invade their countries.
 

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Was Christianity really that big of a factor in the recent Muslim outrage over the cartoons? Didn't that have more to do with western values vs. islamic values?
It has almost nothing to do with any of it. Although it is used as a extremeist propaganda tool on occasion.

And that's funny, take a conflict in one part of the world involving Muslims and one in another and another and then say there's a world war between Muslims and non-Muslims.
You have Mulsim extremists in over a dozen places around to world carrying out Jihad against non-mulsims. How would you characterize it? Your simplist idea above seems to indicate that unless Yemen officially declares war against 10 or 15 countries the battles can not be related. The day of declared war is over. And their is a world war going on. And do you know why the west has been losing so far? Because of people like you who don't want to admit it's happening.

The only place I see acts of war carried out is in the middle east. There's a real easy way to stop that. Do not invade their countries.
A few off the top of my head
Iraq
India
Afganistan
Chechnya
Uganda (although its occuring in the Sudan mostly)
Thailand
Indonesia
Turks vs Kurds
Philippines

Internal quiet civil wars
Pakistan
Somalia
Sudan
Most of Central Asia and Northern Africa
(a few of the above you could list here too)

A lot of non-M.E. coutries there. Also I leave out attacks in the U.S. Spain and the U.K. as well as rioting in France and Australia.
 

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Here grabbed this off Wiki for ya. Just because the local news doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it's not there. These wars do NOT all involve Muslims. But as I look through the list I'd say more than half do.

Active Civil wars

* Afghanistan, 1992-2002, armed conflicts subsist
* Algeria, conflicts subsist
* Angolan Civil War, 1974-1989, 1995-1997, 1998-2002
* Burundi, 1988-1991, 1993-2001
* Cabinda, ?-present
* Cambodia, 1978-1993, 1997-1998
* Casamance ?-present
* Darfur, Sudan, ?-present
* First Congo War, Zaire, 1996-1997
* Second Congo War, DRC, 1998-present
* Republic of the Congo, 1997, 1998
* Côte d'Ivoire, 1999-2000, 2002-present
* East Timor/Indonesia, 1975-1999
* Georgian Civil War, Abkhazia, South Ossetia in Georgia, still going on
* Guatemalan Civil War, 1960-1996
* Guinea-Bissau, 1998-1999
* Haiti ?-present
* Hmong ?-present
* Iraq's sectarian civil war, 2003 - present
* Kashmir, ?-present
* Kyrgyzstan, ?-present
* Kurdistan, Kurdish Democratic Party, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, 1961-1970, 1988-2003
* Liberian Civil War, Liberia, 1989-1996, 1999-2003
* Nepalese People's War, Nepal, 1996-present
* Philippines, Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, 1972-1996, 2001-Present
* Rwanda, 1990-1997
* Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka, 1983-2001, conflicts subsist.
* Sierra Leone, 1991-2002
* Somalian Civil War, 1991-present
* Sri Lankan Civil War 1972-present
* Sudanese Civil War, Southern Sudan, 1955-1972, 1983-2005(?)
* Tajikistan Civil War, Tajikistan, 1992-1997
* Uganda, 1987-present
* Yemen, 1979-1989, 1994, 2000s
* Yugoslav wars, 1991-2001

Currently active wars.

1964 Colombian Armed Conflict Colombia
1969 New People's Army/Islamic
insurgency (including OEF-P) Philippines
1983 Sri Lankan civil war Tamil Eelam
1984 Kurdish Separatist Insurgency Turkey and Kurdistan
1984 Free Papua Movement Western New Guinea
1988 Casamance Conflict Senegal
1988 Somali Civil War Somalia
1989 Kashmir conflict Kashmir
1993 Ethnic conflict in Nagaland Nagaland, India
1996 Nepal Civil War Nepal
1999 Ituri Conflict DR Congo
1999 Second Chechen War Russia
2000 Conflict in Laos involving the Hmong Laos
2001 War in Afghanistan Afghanistan
2001 South Thailand insurgency Pattani (region)
2002 Ivorian Civil War Côte d'Ivoire
2003 Iraq War Iraq
2003 Balochistan conflict Balochistan (region)
2003 Darfur conflict
Chadian-Sudanese conflict
Second Chadian Civil War Sudan/Chad
2005 Western Sahara Independence Intifada Western Sahara
 

Drosselmeier

Diabloii.Net Member
A few off the top of my head
Iraq
India
Afganistan
Chechnya
Uganda (although its occuring in the Sudan mostly)
Thailand
Indonesia
Turks vs Kurds
Philippines

Internal quiet civil wars
Pakistan
Somalia
Sudan
Most of Central Asia and Northern Africa
(a few of the above you could list here too)

A lot of non-M.E. coutries there. Also I leave out attacks in the U.S. Spain and the U.K. as well as rioting in France and Australia.
Most of those are definitely not wars.

Iraq - War, but in the middle east. Not religious in nature.
India - Not a war.
Afghanistan - I'll give you that one.
Chechnya - Not religious in nature.
Uganda - Not religious in nature.
Thailand - Not a war.
Indonesia - Not religious in nature.
Turks vs. Kurds - Not a war and not religious in nature even if it was.

If you include every kind of conflict where someone is hurt in some way and there is a Muslim involved I guess you have a point with that list. That sort of definition makes the whole issue a bit fuzzy though. You might just as well start asking "oh, when will the Buddhist vs non-Buddhist wars end!?"



 

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Most of those are definitely not wars.
Wow where to even begin. I guess with this.

Iraq - War, but in the middle east. Not religious in nature.
So why isn't is a free for all? Why is are the insurgents all members of the same Sunni sect or outside Mujahideen? Why no Kurds involved? Why has Jihad been called? Mmmm

India - Not a war.
India is the number one terrorist target in the world. How many need to die for you to think of it as a war? More Indias' have died before and since 911 than Americans.

Afghanistan - I'll give you that one.
Well that's nice of you.

Chechnya - Not religious in nature.
Who is leading the fight again? Oh right Muslims.

Uganda - Not religious in nature.
The two groups fighting the gov't and supported by Sudan are:
The ADF is mostly fundamentalist Muslim rebels.
The LRA rebels are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments.

Thailand - Not a war.
As someone who spends a lot of time, I never go south anymore.

Southern Thailand's terrorist incidents in 2002 raised questions about potential Al Qaeda Network involvement. These attacks were the handiwork of a small number of highly organized, experienced insurgents from 4-8 Muslim groups
In the jihad in South Thailand, at least 1,730 people have been killed since January 2004.
That was as of May. When thousands die it is a war.

All civil servants are seen as targets now. School teachers are being armed after several were killed.

Indonesia - Not religious in nature.
ah WHAT?
-Aceh Merdeka (Free Aceh) movement has been fighting for a independent and Islamic state in Aceh since the 1970s.
-Violence between Christians and Muslims broke out in the Maluku Islands, also known as the Spice Islands. Nearly 10,000 people died during the next two years.
-Bali I personally lost a friend there and promise you the bombers were Muslim.

Turks vs. Kurds - Not a war and not religious in nature even if it was.
-The number of deaths since the war's outbreak in 1984 had risen beyond 12,000 by 1994.
-Estimates of the total number of villagers forcibly evacuated from their homes since the conflict began vary widely from 330,000 to 2 million. A credible estimate given by a former Member of Parliament from the region is around 560,000.

Is it still a war? Who knows. But despite Turkey's promises to end the oppression (to enter the E.U.) there is still some going on. Will it flare up again? Hopefully not.

You might just as well start asking "oh, when will the Buddhist vs non-Buddhist wars end!?"
We Buddhist don't generally start many wars. Thailand is the only country that Buddhists are fighting an open war (of defence) that I can think of. Tibet is fairly calm although information is limited.

You could learn a lot from here. It's a good site for background if you don't have individual books.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
You have Mulsim extremists in over a dozen places around to world carrying out Jihad against non-mulsims. How would you characterize it? Your simplist idea above seems to indicate that unless Yemen officially declares war against 10 or 15 countries the battles can not be related. The day of declared war is over. And their is a world war going on. And do you know why the west has been losing so far? Because of people like you who don't want to admit it's happening.
Right, you want me to believe the conflict in Darfur, civil riots in France, the rise of the fundamentalist north in Nigeria, the regional operations of Jemah Islamiah in Indonesia and Al Qaeda and its associates in the Middle East are all a part of a global jihad? Obviously you think I'm an idiot.

And the only thing the West has been losing so far is the attempt to magically turn Iraq into an America-friendly democracy via a long series of catastrophic blunders and pie-in-the-sky planning. The tide is turning in Afghanistan because we turned our attention away from it to fight a completely unrelated country that had nothing to do with the War on Terror and got ourselves caught in a quagmire that sucked up all our resources making it impossible to either finish the job in Afghanistan or open any new theatres of conflict.

Apart from that we are not fighting any actual wars. And by saying "the day of declared war is over" you're actually trying to insinuate that terrorists are as big a threat as a real country, and I heartily laugh in your face. They can set off bombs, kill and scare people, but they are absolutely nothing compared to say, the Axis powers or even the Communists in the Cold War. There is absolutely positively zero chance of Al Qaeda soldiers occupying America, overthrowing its government, marching through the streets et cetera. This is a paltry war, and only the fear inspired by terrorist attacks amplifies it in people's minds to the scale of a REAL war.

Also I leave out attacks in the U.S. Spain and the U.K. as well as rioting in France and Australia.
Oh yes, riots in Australia eh? I presume you refer to Cronulla? It was white people running around in a big mob beating up people who looked Lebanese.

And the fact you'd throw in the riots in France as if they're part of a jihad or terrorist plot or indeed anything other than domestic French concerns just illustrates palpably how ignorant and poorly informed your contention is. Either that or you're being intentionally obtuse to serve an ideological agenda.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Here grabbed this off Wiki for ya. Just because the local news doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it's not there. These wars do NOT all involve Muslims. But as I look through the list I'd say more than half do.

Active Civil wars

* Afghanistan, 1992-2002, armed conflicts subsist
* Algeria, conflicts subsist
* Angolan Civil War, 1974-1989, 1995-1997, 1998-2002
* Burundi, 1988-1991, 1993-2001
* Cabinda, ?-present
* Cambodia, 1978-1993, 1997-1998
* Casamance ?-present
* Darfur, Sudan, ?-present
* First Congo War, Zaire, 1996-1997
* Second Congo War, DRC, 1998-present
* Republic of the Congo, 1997, 1998
* Côte d'Ivoire, 1999-2000, 2002-present
* East Timor/Indonesia, 1975-1999
* Georgian Civil War, Abkhazia, South Ossetia in Georgia, still going on
* Guatemalan Civil War, 1960-1996
* Guinea-Bissau, 1998-1999
* Haiti ?-present
* Hmong ?-present
* Iraq's sectarian civil war, 2003 - present
* Kashmir, ?-present
* Kyrgyzstan, ?-present
* Kurdistan, Kurdish Democratic Party, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, 1961-1970, 1988-2003
* Liberian Civil War, Liberia, 1989-1996, 1999-2003
* Nepalese People's War, Nepal, 1996-present
* Philippines, Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, 1972-1996, 2001-Present
* Rwanda, 1990-1997
* Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka, 1983-2001, conflicts subsist.
* Sierra Leone, 1991-2002
* Somalian Civil War, 1991-present
* Sri Lankan Civil War 1972-present
* Sudanese Civil War, Southern Sudan, 1955-1972, 1983-2005(?)
* Tajikistan Civil War, Tajikistan, 1992-1997
* Uganda, 1987-present
* Yemen, 1979-1989, 1994, 2000s
* Yugoslav wars, 1991-2001

Currently active wars.

1964 Colombian Armed Conflict Colombia
1969 New People's Army/Islamic
insurgency (including OEF-P) Philippines
1983 Sri Lankan civil war Tamil Eelam
1984 Kurdish Separatist Insurgency Turkey and Kurdistan
1984 Free Papua Movement Western New Guinea
1988 Casamance Conflict Senegal
1988 Somali Civil War Somalia
1989 Kashmir conflict Kashmir
1993 Ethnic conflict in Nagaland Nagaland, India
1996 Nepal Civil War Nepal
1999 Ituri Conflict DR Congo
1999 Second Chechen War Russia
2000 Conflict in Laos involving the Hmong Laos
2001 War in Afghanistan Afghanistan
2001 South Thailand insurgency Pattani (region)
2002 Ivorian Civil War Côte d'Ivoire
2003 Iraq War Iraq
2003 Balochistan conflict Balochistan (region)
2003 Darfur conflict
Chadian-Sudanese conflict
Second Chadian Civil War Sudan/Chad
2005 Western Sahara Independence Intifada Western Sahara
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh sorry, I thought you were a serious poster.

Please, go through and highlight all of the above list where the entire cause of the conflict is religion.

Who is leading the fight again? Oh right Muslims.
Who is leading the fight in Northern Ireland? Catholics? OMG, religious war!



 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
end of thread lolz amirite
Wrong. Genocide - I say kill everyone who wants to kill someone. Line'em all up, and let me put a bullet in each one's head. Then kill me for killing them... I prefer guillotine, I'd like to know what it's like to feel your head detached from your body for a few seconds before the lights go out.

[/silliness]



 

Yossarian

Diabloii.Net Member
Well the one downside to the internet is that it gives the extremely ignorant a voice.

Obviously you think I'm an idiot.
No, just incrediably ignorant and pompus.

And the only thing the West has been losing so far is the attempt to magically turn Iraq into an America-friendly democracy
See my above comment.

sucked up all our resources making it impossible to either finish the job in Afghanistan or open any new theatres of conflict.
Afganistan was won militarily speaking. It is being lost because of a lack of post war investment in infastructure. The majority who supported it have in large part turned their backs.

you're actually trying to insinuate that terrorists are as big a threat as a real country, and I heartily laugh in your face.
Again, see my comments near the top. It has already toppled gov'ts and many more around the world are in danger.

This is a paltry war, and only the fear inspired by terrorist attacks amplifies it in people's minds to the scale of a REAL war.
If you remember nothing else I ever write remember this. You are the reason we are losing. Let me put it in a school ground. If kid A wants to fight kid B but kid B doesn't think there will be a fight. Kid B is most likely going to lose when Kid A hits him first and keeps on hitting kid B. When you get hit you're in a fight, defend yourself or you will lose. And in 20 years when the world is very different remember and realise how ignorant you are right now.

Oh yes, riots in Australia eh? I presume you refer to Cronulla? It was white people running around in a big mob beating up people who looked Lebanese.
After some Lebanese beat up some life guards (I believe) on a "white" beach first. But none the less it was ethnically motivated on both sides.

And the fact you'd throw in the riots in France as if they're part of a jihad or terrorist plot
No and stop trying to strawman. But they like the riots down under are an example of emigrated mulsims difficulty in fitting in in the western world and turning to violence as an outlet. See also cartoons, tube bombings and the many home grown arrests made in Western countries.

Please, go through and highlight all of the above list where the entire cause of the conflict is religion.
Now that is just a silly thing to say. No war (not even the Crusades) can ever be about one thing. A grade 9 history student could tell you that. But as for a route or imporant cause you'll find over half the list I gave qualifies. As for you not knowing anything about them, well I can't help you there. Get a better education, is all I can advise.
 

Moosashi

Diabloii.Net Member
I think you make a good case, Yossarian. Your evidence is pretty strong and generally supports your position. The counter arguments so far are heavy on unsupported assumptions, light on fact and, ironically, simplistic. There are arguments against your conclusions, but they haven't been presented.

One argument against the conclusion from this data that there is something inherent to Islam that pushes its more extreme practitioners to violence is that if there is indeed an Al Qaeda with a strong global network, then your examples aren't independent observations. That wouldn't dispute your characterization of the conflict as a world war, but it would show the war might not have multiple independent origins. Without replication, you can't show a clear association with Islam and violence. That all depends on whether and how strongly these various battles are tied to one another, something in which I'm not prepared to delve.

Also, we have to keep in mind that all the world's religions have distinct histories. Like people, their current expression is as much a product of their experience of circumstance as it is a product of their fundamental tenets: their genes, to continue the analogy. Part of their experience has been each other, and that in historical times colored by a lot of animosity and conflict. Perhaps the scattered Islamic groups of today share a heritage that leads them to violence, independent of the religion itself. In other words, if things were different and Buddhism or Christianity arose in the same place and time, perhaps it would be the followers of those religions that were consistently involved in conflicts of religious nature. Still, that doesn't change the fact of the real world as you've presented it, just the inferences you can make about the nature of Islam.
 

Rabbitz

Diabloii.Net Member
Popular opinion is now that Islam is the cause of all problems. Last century I believe it were the Jews. This will all pass when ( yes when) some guy who's hatefull ( and with enough power) does something stupid.
 

Drosselmeier

Diabloii.Net Member
We Buddhist don't generally start many wars. Thailand is the only country that Buddhists are fighting an open war (of defence) that I can think of. Tibet is fairly calm although information is limited.
How many countries where Buddhists live sent troops to Afghanistan or Iraq?

I can't shake the feeling that you don't get my point. To clarify:

1. It's not a war as soon as someone dies. The way you use the word makes it lose all meaning.

2. The fact that the fighting parties belong to different religions does not make the conflict a religious conflict. Go over your list again and weed out all the political, ethnic and economic conflicts. A hint to get you started... You should automatically exclude all wars and conflicts where one part is an occupying force and the other is native.



 

bg1256

Diabloii.Net Member
First, I don't think "we" - whoever that is - will be able to stop this. In many ways and places, it's an internal conflict, and Western powers would do better to stay out if things in terms of military action. Take Iraq, for example. Invading Iraq has probably caused as much death if not more than if we had simply left the corrupt government in place and tried to regulate it diplomatically, economically.

My opinion simply put: The West needs to mind its own business. We have plenty of problems to deal with in our own societies, and we don't need to impose our way of doing things across the world.
 
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