How about some low-level focus?

[Nimbostratus]

How about some low-level focus?

This is something I rarely see anyone mention, but it's a serious flaw D2 suffered from and D3 needs to avoid. That flaw is that most of the fun stuff was aimed only towards endgame, high level characters. Virtually nothing was provided to make the beginning of the game interesting.


Think about the low levels in D2 for a moment, untwinked. For melee skills, you have a bunch of things that amount to "Normal Attack with some side effect." For ranged skills, you have several duplicates of "basic projectile that damages one guy." You probably have no more than 20 FRW, 10 IAS, or 30 FCR. There are no interesting CTCs, oskills, charges, or "aura on equip" items. Even your standard item stats don't give you much variety.

Now think about the high levels. For melee, you have whirlwind, charge, zeal, and so on. Casters have frozen orb, strafe, blessed hammer, and the like. You can outrun most enemies, and you attack lightning fast. If you get bored, you can mess around with Dual Dream setups or equip your Zealot with a "Voice of Reason" weapon. Oh, and there are Ubers.

Ever wonder why so many people prefer rushing as opposed to just playing through the game? This is why. No matter what your character is, it starts out at level 1 and has to go through the same thing. Seriously, mix up the low levels. Make them fun.

 

[Krugar]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

I hear you Nimbostratus. But to this date I'm yet to know of a game that achieved a perfect balance in which skills and equipment provide fun and interesting content across the whole of a character levels. Not even pen & paper RPGs achieved this, with their set of complicated rules and vast choices.

So there may be a brick wall there that is hard to break through. There's also the danger that too much interest in low level gaming may unbalance the game. Since such a measure, to be effective, would have to mean a large quantity of readily available equipment (and not just difficult to find gear that only a few would get an hold on or find too late in their progress), monsters would have to be tied to an increasingly powerful low level character.

In any case, Blizzard did announce their interest in producing skill trees that remain useful even on the top layers. So in a way, you may just see your wish come through.

 

[paperkut]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

I think 2 things are going to really help this problem
1. ability to respec our skill points
2. fun and exciting quests throughout the game

 

[neskind]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

This type of character class is refered to as a rear loaded class in RPG's because all the stuff worth having is delayed to higher levels reducing the fun of low level characters. All RPG have at least 1 class lke this so D2 isnt to much to blame

 

[5zigen]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

This wont be as much of an issue because they have all but confirmed that they will allow respecs.

It would be nice to have a more compelling early game than most rpgs, D2 and WoW are both examples of how to make the early levels boring.

That being said, they want the game to be approachable, and giving players a crapton of choices and skills that are somewhat difficult to use may not be ideal (particularly considering the number of posts asking for 1 skill characters so they can just have 1 uber skill).

 

[stephan]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

The reason why the start of the game is not interesting anymore is because it's a decade old game. Nothing more or less. If the OP starts to complain that tier 3 and 4 skills are not available soon enough in the game, I'm not sure what anyone can do.

And respecs do not solve this problem, they are only a way around it.

 

[Mad Mantis]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

And respecs do not solve this problem, they are only a way around it.

Not even that. They don't fix the fact that most level 1 spells will be the most basic "special attacks" there are. Nothing fancy just normal attack with a side-effect. It won't affect the lack of interesting CTCs, oskills, charges, or "aura on equip" items.

All respecs will allow you to do is change the focus of the character. If the low level skills still suck then it won't matter how often you can change them.

 

[Nimbostratus]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

Not even that. They don't fix the fact that most level 1 spells will be the most basic "special attacks" there are. Nothing fancy just normal attack with a side-effect. It won't affect the lack of interesting CTCs, oskills, charges, or "aura on equip" items.

All respecs will allow you to do is change the focus of the character. If the low level skills still suck then it won't matter how often you can change them.

Thank you, exactly what I was going to say.



It isn't that the low levels lack power or that there aren't as many choices as high levels, but that there aren't many different choices. Let's take a look at D2's Tier 1 and 2 attack skills.

Tier 1:
Magic Arrow, Fire Arrow, Jab, Fire Blast, Tiger Strike, Dragon Talon, Bash, Werewolf, Firestorm, Teeth, Sacrifice, Smite, Fire Bolt, Ice Bolt, Charged Bolt.

Tier 2:
Power Strike (melee), Poison Javelin, Cold Arrow, Multiple Shot, Fists of Fire, Dragon Claw, Shock Web, Blade Sentinel, Double Swing, Werebear, Molten Boulder, Arctic Blast, Poison Dagger, Corpse Explosion, Holy Bolt, Inferno, Frost Nova, Ice Blast

Now, what we have from those lists is:

• 7 straight-line, single-target projectiles
• 12 things that play just like normal attack
• 3 spread-pattern projectiles
• 2 infernos
• 2 novas
• 2 grenades
• 5 things that stand out on their own.

With 32 attack skills on top of normal attack and throw, there are effectively only 11 different things you can do in total. And one of them still requires a bunch of normal attacks before anything special happens (Fists of Fire). So 10 things, with the assassin tossing around an occasional explosion. But let's break it down some more, since not all of those are available to all the characters.

Amazon: 4 attack methods
Assassin: 4-5 attack methods (if you count Fists of Fire as normal attack or not)
Barbarian: 2 attack methods
Druid: 5 attack methods
Necromancer: 4 attack methods
Paladin: 2 attack methods
Sorceress: 5 attack methods

Real nice variety there, with a maximum of 5 ways to hurt things. :unimpressed: Especially the barb and paladin, who have no more variety than they would have with zero skill points, using normal attack and throw.

 

[Putz]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

I think 2 things are going to really help this problem
1. ability to respec our skill points
2. fun and exciting quests throughout the game

I concur with this thought.

The only way Blizzard can expect to make low level fun is the options of changing skills and tons of quest that aren't the WoW style of quest. I am talking about picking up 10 of this item quest.

 

[stephan]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

Real nice variety there, with a maximum of 5 ways to hurt things. :unimpressed: Especially the barb and paladin, who have no more variety than they would have with zero skill points, using normal attack and throw.

5 out of 10 is quite diverse if you also count that there are support skills. The Barb and Paladin don't get much less one dimensional in the higher tiers anyway, with the only real exception being WW. And you are complaining that the first 12 levels (which is 20 minutes or something at the very most) are not diverse enough? Do you really want items with 'level 1 Might when equiped' or an free for all +3 to Fire Bolt? Isn't that just more of the same, except worse?

It almost seems that only just now you've discovered that with a few exceptions basically every attack in Diablo 2 is either a variant of a simple swing attack or a missile.

 

[NASE]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

5 out of 10 is quite diverse if you also count that there are support skills. The Barb and Paladin don't get much less one dimensional in the higher tiers anyway, with the only real exception being WW. And you are complaining that the first 12 levels (which is 20 minutes or something at the very most) are not diverse enough? Do you really want items with 'level 1 Might when equiped' or an free for all +3 to Fire Bolt? Isn't that just more of the same, except worse?

20 minutes? Then you're much faster then I am.


I think you don't get the point. Low levels are boring because you are weak. However, you still need to be weaker then at higher level. So the question is, how can we make a character believable strong (heroic) from the start and make him much stronger (more heroic) at the end?

Just look at the barbarian, have of the time you are using normal attack because you can't cope with the mana cost of bash. And the sorcerer is even worse, she's a caster and still you are using normal attakc halve the time.
We want to use impressive strong skills, not things we can do in real life too.

 

[stephan]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

Perhaps my views are tainted by the /p8 command. I'll give it a go on p1.

 

[krzysztof]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

I think inevitably, in a game like Diablo, no matter what is done during the low-levels . . . the advanced levels will ALWAYS be considered more entertaining and fun.

 

[sreda]

Re: How about some low-level focus?

This is something I rarely see anyone mention, but it's a serious flaw D2 suffered from and D3 needs to avoid. That flaw is that most of the fun stuff was aimed only towards endgame, high level characters. Virtually nothing was provided to make the beginning of the game interesting.


Think about the low levels in D2 for a moment, untwinked. For melee skills, you have a bunch of things that amount to "Normal Attack with some side effect." For ranged skills, you have several duplicates of "basic projectile that damages one guy." You probably have no more than 20 FRW, 10 IAS, or 30 FCR. There are no interesting CTCs, oskills, charges, or "aura on equip" items. Even your standard item stats don't give you much variety.

Now think about the high levels. For melee, you have whirlwind, charge, zeal, and so on. Casters have frozen orb, strafe, blessed hammer, and the like. You can outrun most enemies, and you attack lightning fast. If you get bored, you can mess around with Dual Dream setups or equip your Zealot with a "Voice of Reason" weapon. Oh, and there are Ubers.

Ever wonder why so many people prefer rushing as opposed to just playing through the game? This is why. No matter what your character is, it starts out at level 1 and has to go through the same thing. Seriously, mix up the low levels. Make them fun.

Oh you're right on the button with this one. I think Blizzard already clarified that in an interview. They wanted this game to be enjoyable from start to finish, they added many quests and side-things you can do while progressing through the lore. There won't be any kind of "twinking", though I'm sure people out there might do it lol. They are going to have set pieces be more friendly to lower levels, so that they don't out-level the set gear as soon as they get it. So all in all, it seems Blizzard will make this one thoroughly enjoying game.