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Hot muling...quick reply appreciated

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by midnightvulture, Apr 26, 2005.

  1. midnightvulture

    midnightvulture IncGamers Member

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    Hot muling...quick reply appreciated

    So I just killed meph and I've got a pretty decent Gheed's sitting on the ground, and a better one in my inventory. I've heard there's a way to get one into my atma stash and keep the other so I can donate it, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about it. CAn I just open ATMA and mule off my old one, drop it, pick up the new one, and get a new gheed's for someone while keeping my old one? Thanks in advance for any help.

    mv
     
  2. Feceset

    Feceset IncGamers Member

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    Some people think that it's wrong to do that, but others find it okay.

    You can do that, but some people think it's not right.
     
  3. midnightvulture

    midnightvulture IncGamers Member

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    Many thanks. I figure anyone who has a problem with it can just not take one out of a giveaway. I just feel bad leaving something behind that I know someone will find useful....
    mv
     
  4. Chiastic

    Chiastic IncGamers Member

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    I've heard complaints like that before and I can't for the life of me figure out what the problem with it is. Is it just because people don't like the fact that doing it circumvents (sorta) the "one character, one copy of the item" rule for Gheed's?

    Because even though hot-muling doesn't remove the muled item from the game, it's not like you can't use ATMA to dupe stuff all day long anyway, hot-muling or no hot-muling.
     
  5. Llathias

    Llathias Banned

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    i apologize for my ignorance, but how can a unique drop when the character already has that unique? i've even read somewhere that some uniques don't drop in the whole game if they're rolled in the gamble screen once. the same question applies to the many Nagels in the "items you hate bla bla.." thread.
     
  6. Thrugg

    Thrugg IncGamers Member

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    ATMA is not actually central to either issue here. Neither of these things requires ATMA, although ATMA can be used in relation to both.

    The issue is that, ultimately, a SP character is just a file on your HD. You can copy it, edit it, do whatever you want to it just with Windows.

    You don't have to fire up ATMA at all to avoid losing your first Gheed's when you find another, you can just copy the character with Ctrl-C Ctrl-V in Windows Explorer. Then the copy will have your first Gheed's on it even after you save over the original with the new Gheed's.

    Similarly, ATMA is not a duping program. You don't dupe things in ATMA, you create a copy of them in Windows - that is when you do the duping. All ATMA does is let you then put both copies on one char or in one stash.

    The objection to hotmuling is that it is effectively duping. It may only be temporary, but there is no way to get around the fact that you have at the same time an item (eg Gheed's) in use on your char in game and the same item being moved onto another char/stash outside the game. You may not have explicitly copy-pasted but you have implicitly done so because the game effectively copies your char (in memory) when you load it up and doesn't delete the copy (by writing over it) until you save.

    Personally, I would also like to be able to find additional Gheeds with a char that already has one. But then I'd also like to be able to carry 8 of the thing at once and be in MF heaven. The game doesn't let me. Too bad. But I survive. What you are "meant" to do is, if you find a Gheed's with a char that doesn't have one, hooray, now he does. If you find one with a char that does have one, you choose the better of the two and keep it. You're still better off. Without duping anything.

    [edit] Llathias, a unique can drop when a similar unique is in the game. It is only if it has already dropped in that game that it cannot drop again. Items you bring in from your save file do not affect drops.
     
  7. ryanhutson

    ryanhutson IncGamers Member

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    Correct me if i am wrong, but the game was meant to be played with only ** slots for spare equipment. So, in effect you are arguing against using ATMA and muling items at all. As this is not the way the game is "meant" to be played. This seems like a valid, but extremist view which I doubt you even adhere with (I assume you use ATMA). Jusy my two cents.

    Ryan
     
  8. Chiastic

    Chiastic IncGamers Member

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    Not to be too argumentative (and thanks for the explanation of the "problem," by the way), but doesn't that represent a pretty arbitrary demand for adherence to the game's "core" ruleset? You're not "meant" to have bottomless personal stashes either, after all. And jiggering with your installation to run multiple instances of the game simultaneously (for char-to-char muling via multiplayer) or installing the game on more than one computer on a LAN (same thing) or even the very concept of mule characters can just as easily be taken as a way to get around what you're "meant" to do.

    What about making backups of your D2 save directory? That's effectively duping an entire character(s). And if you ever have to restore from that backup copy, you're actually playing the dupe.

    Not to mention the item trading via email that goes on over at SPTF. Technically speaking, the attachment that gets sent is a dupe while the original remains on your hard-drive until you delete it. In fact, if you wanted to be really technical, when you mule an item into your ATMA stash, the item data is read from your .d2s file, copied into memory (duped) and copied again (dupe of a dupe) into the stash. Sure, the original copy in the .d2s is scrubbed after the initial read/write operation completes and the copy in memory is eventually purged when the memory is overwritten, but for a split second three identical copies of the item exist on your box.

    The fact of the matter (as you've said) is that data on a computer is just a big string of 1s and 0s and as such can be replicated as many times as you like and actually is just over the course of your computer's normal operation (hell, even a defrag that shifts the "save" directory's position on the drive technically involves creating a dupe. And don't even get me started on the prefetcher). The notion that there's even any such (meaningful) thing as original data in a non-abstract sense is just kinda silly. Another example: even when you just run the game, your character file is loaded into memory (duped) and when you save, the data in memory is written back to the HD (dupe of a dupe).

    My point (and argument) is that there's really only one meaningful definition of duping from a gameplay/moral/ethical/whatever standpoint and that's intentionally creating and retaining two or more identical copies of an item, which hot-muling isn't necessarily meant to accomplish.

    Anyway, there's nothing wrong with a community having a few goofy arbitrary rules and like the FAQ says, my computer is my computer and I'll do what I want. The truth is that I just needed a warm-up session to get me in the right frame of mind (the cranky argumentative one) for a debate I have to do for my ethics class in about two hours and this just happened to pop up. So pay me no mind (or feel free to tell me I'm stupid and don't know what I'm talking about).

    Chi
     
  9. DougTheHead2

    DougTheHead2 IncGamers Member

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    I haven't run into a Gheeds while wearing a gheeds yet, but I intend to just throw my old one out and keep the new one. Then, load up a backup of said character with the gheeds on and transfer it then. This pretty much gets around what Thrugg is saying, about 2 of the same item at the same time.... kinda. Or not really, it means I have 2 of everything, my char and his equip and the gheeds, at the time of the transfer-from-backup, but hey, I want me some more gheeds'!

    What I should do is play TCP games all the time, and when I find one I want to keep, post in the MP thread for someone to hold my gheeds for a second while I dish out my current one to another char.
     
  10. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    Where the line is drawn is somewhat arbitrary, as you can see just by the different ways people play. In he end, where I draw the line comes down to two factors:
    1) What will make the game fun for me.
    2) What will allow me to participate fully in whatever community activities I want to.

    I find hotmuling Gheed's to be cheesy, therefor less fun. Also, some people may choose not to trade with me if I hotmule Gheed's. So, where I draw the line is pretty simple.

    Using ATMA allows me to focus on questing without worrying about managing inventory or dealing with TCP/IP games and mules (I did that before I got Virtual PC and ATMA has increased my enjoyment of the game.) Using ATMA to mule doesn't affect my ability to trade on these forums. So, again, where to draw the line is clear.

    Everyone has different goals and playstyles, so the line is going to move a bit from individual to individual. The best we can do is make sure we are upfront about where we draw the line before participating in trading, giveaways, and MP.
     
  11. vajurewi

    vajurewi IncGamers Member

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    Im not getting sucked into this ethics-morales- whirlpool.... :eek:

    Since I have a perfect Gheeds on my main MFer, I dont really need any others that may drop. However, I will do the switcheroo and hot-mule so that any other Gheeds I find is available for giveaways. people have accepted them w/o problems so there...
     
  12. NeckRomancer

    NeckRomancer IncGamers Member

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    I find nothing wrong with hot-muling Gheed's and it is possible that the 2 I received from trades were both hot-muled.

    However, I just couldn't bring myself to actually perform hot-muling. I have no idea why. I've left about 4 or 5 gheed's fortunes on the ground, some as high as 34%MF.
     
  13. Llathias

    Llathias Banned

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    this issue is so much dependent on the perspective. a friend of mine, for example is agaist ATMA. he thinks everything should be made in-game. if you're comfortable with what you do, do it. just tell people what you did before interaction (ie. trade/MP) and if they're comfortable as well, no problems.
     
  14. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster IncGamers Member

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    I'm support of hot mule, but I don't really want to get into this "argument" as it has been done before, and it will be done again, we will never get everyone to agree on same thing.

    I just want to make a point that there are more reasons to keep have more than one Gheed (not on same char) in your ATMA stash. Eg. I have one gheed with high MF, and one with low MF but perfect price reduction. So I could use one for MF, and the other for gamble. I also saved few extra, I think I have one with perfect GF, one day, I may use it.
     

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