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Holy Grail questions

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Jodeldihoo, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Jodeldihoo

    Jodeldihoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Hey guys,

    so I recently decided to pick up D2 again and and start collecting all items in the game. I then found out that this is actually a project that many have commited to and that it also has a catchy name.

    Now, I started with a Blizz sorc and farmed Meph Hell for quite a bit until I got some decent gear (Viper, Shako, Chancies, Wartravs, nagels, gheeds). I also farmed a Monarch and made a spirit.

    I then moved to AT runs and luckily found a Ber rune. I decided it may be the time to go for LK and collect some more HRs for decent RWs.
    This way I got myself a HOTO and a Lo in about 1.5k runs now, which I may be using to build a Fortitude.

    Now my biggest question:
    Would you rather farm for a second Ber, build infinity and respec to Lightning,
    or
    farm for a Jah rune to get a Hammerdin going?

    My goal is still to go for the Grail, so I want to get a farmer going who is able to clear CS and maybe WSK.

    In many forums the Hammerdin is recommended over the lite sorc, but often in the context of botting, which is not what I intend to do.

    Hoping for some feedback on what to go for!
    Cheers
    J
     
  2. Grape

    Grape Diabloii.Net Member

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    Hi and welcome to the forums!

    About the issue of Inifnity or Enigma first, I'd say it depends what other characters you see building in the near future? Either way, they both have a lot possible uses!

    Hammerdin is the better CS clearer, at least when you don't have the best possible lightning sorc items yet.

    As far as building up your Grail quickly at this point, Blizzard sorc running AT at /players 1 and boss packs will win big time for now. She is the best at the task until you can make really effective Pit runner. It still is worth to build your runeword arsenal, if only to take a break from AT running and play some other characters as well.

    The ultimate MFer at the game is Berserk Barbarian running the Pit at /players 1 killing only boss packs.

    Again, welcome and best of luck with the grailing! Feel free to join the Grail table also, but remember to check the rules we play according to, before that :)
     
  3. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    A blizzard sorc will be better at MF in the Tunnels than in the Pits, so I don't think she should switch to the Pits.

    A big improvement would be a map with the Tunnelss entrance close to the waypoint and a circular Tunnels map, so you can go out again, switch to act 5 quickly in order to visit Pindle as well and start the next game in area with a short way to the waypoint in town.

    I would not respec the blizzard sorceress because she will be better at MF than a lightning sorc. I think there's just one thing that a lightning sorc can do better on single player: Killing those which are usually immune to her chosen element, by equipping her merc with the infinity runeword. However, you don't need to do that in order to finish the grail.

    I think that neither of the two characters will provide new MF sources which are as good (which means providing you with derisered stuff at a comparable pace) as those which you can already farm with the blizzard sorc (which are Meph, Andy, Tunnels, Pindle and LK, by the way). A new one would be Travincal which you could visit with a barbarian or a melee paladin.

    However, effectivity isn't just about statistics of particular areas. For example, the Pits, Tunnels, CS, WSK etc. are L85 areas which basically produce the same loot (except for the chests there), but you are probably bored more quickly when just doing the Tunnels which would lead to less finds and thuss less efficiency on a broader scale, even though the WSK is much tougher than the Pits or Tunnels.

    To finally answer your question: Hammerdin before lightning sorc.

    The CS and WSK aren't any better for the grail than the Tunnels. The monster density is higher there, but it also takes longer to get them killed. In addition, the WSK monsters are tougher because there's a broad variation of them, so specialized characters have a problem there when being alone.

    For grail items, you would be quickest with the Tunnels and Pindle with the Blizzard sorc at /p1 (bosses there wouldn't drop more on higher /p settings) while wearing as much MF stuff as possible.

    That topic is heavily influenced by the question whether it's about bnet or single player.

    On bnet, there's much more trading and a greater availabitlity of dupes or bot loot, in particular with respect to HRs. You also have Übers there, so you have a need for characters who can gather keys and kill the Über-Tristram bosses (I preferred a frozen orb/chain lightning sorc for that) and also Über Diablo (fana-zelaot). In addition, ladder seasons have a huge impact on how you are planning your character roster. Finally there's much more PvP.

    Your goal is different: Finding all uniques and set items ob single player and for me personally, a blizzard sorc would be best for that job, in the mentioned fashion.. Others prefer berserk barbs in the Pits, but that needs a play style which would be too much stressing for me.
     
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  4. Albatross

    Albatross Diabloii.Net Member

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    Never thought of this, great idea.

    I'm currently down to 45s runs killing, on average, 6 AT bosses. With 7.5s per boss kill, pindle would be worth it if I can kill it under 14s, which should be doable as my AT map is circular. Also, running down from Harrogath's spawn to the waypoint should be faster than going through Warriv and then loading another act by using the Lost City waypoint.
     
  5. japanzaman

    japanzaman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Sounds like you're on the right path. Just aim for the Tal amulet, belt, and armor with p topaz, Shako, 35 fcr spirit, hoto or death's fathom, chance guards, war traveler, and a bunch of 7mf charms. No need to make crazy runewords. This will get you to the 105 fcr with some rings and over 400 mf easy.

    I also recommend the prayer merc with insight, fortitude, and Andariel's or vamps gaze with a cham to kill the occasional cold immune boss.
     
  6. Jodeldihoo

    Jodeldihoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    I agree, but in order to get more variety into the running routine I would need to switch to another char in the long run, since the blizz sorc can only do AT of all the L85 zones. A lite sorc may have less MF, but may kill quicker and a larger variety of monsters (e.g. WSK, CS). I mean, going above 300 MF (which I guess is achievable with a lite sorc) isnt as effective anyway due to increasing diminishing returns, right?

    I see. So would you say a Hdin is more effective for running other L85 areas?

    Oh wow, really? I thought the "no-drop" chance is decreased with increasing player count. If thats not the case, I will gladly switch back to p1. Been running AT at p3-p5.

    I have a pretty good AT map close to the wp. I was lucky to get a good LK map at the same time, so I can alternate when I'm getting bored of the routine.
    Pindle never, EVER, dropped something worthwhile in my entire D2 career. So I stopped running him. Maybe I should give him another try.

    Thanks for the extensive feedback!
    Cheers
    J
     
  7. Jodeldihoo

    Jodeldihoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks, I guess I just cant let the Ber rot in my stash. It needs to be used, haha!

    May I ask why Prayer > Frosty?

    And I know its a big discussion in the community, but Im using Treachery atm. Since I got the Lo rune, I was thinking of making a non-eth Fortitude that my merc, and later also other chars can use. You recommended a Fort, whats your argument for it?

    Cheers
    J
     
  8. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    More than 300% isn't that useful for uniques, but set items and rares aren't that much affected by diminishing returns. I think 500% is a good amount for a character whose main purpose is finding that kind of stuff.

    I think a hammerdin is good for the River of Flame, CS and WSK because they are mostly wide, open areas with almost no magic immunes (except for a few in the WSK).

    There are two types of bosses. The one type are those which are derived from regular monsters, like random bosses, Pindleskin and Shenk. they always drop four potions and two non-junk items. Champions always drop 4 potions and either gold or a single non-junk item. The second kind are those who are kind of a class of their own which usually have graphics of their own, like act bosses, Nihlathak, the Countess or Hephaistos. Their drops increase with higher player counts, with 6 being the maximum and usually topping out before /p7 (and one special drop for a few of them, like a gold heap for Baal.)

    He's better at dropping good stuff than a random boss, although he cannot drop qlvl 87 uniques of which there are three: Azurewrath, Arachnid Mesh and Tyrael's. You could have a look at it with e.g. ATMA's drop calculator.
     
  9. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape Diabloii.Net Member

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    As I have said before, any real quest for the grail is really a quest for Tyrael's. This is why the Pit zerker is the best MF character. It focuses exclusively on monsters that can drop Tyrael's and ignores absolutely everything else. Every moment spent not hunting for Tyrael's is essentially wasted, as you will find every other item you could possibly need on your journey, often in triplicate, long before the big T drops.
     
  10. Jodeldihoo

    Jodeldihoo Diabloii.Net Member

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    I've never really looked much into D2 guides and such, so I'm new to any other class than Sorc or Hdin for MF.

    I see your point, but a pit zerker requires an enigma in order to be effective, right? As long as I'm missing the Jah, I guess the Sorc is my best bet. But your argument certainly speaks for Eni>Infinity. So when a second Ber drops, I'll consider waiting until I can make Enigma.

    Just a quick question, what makes the Zerker better than the Sorc? I guess the double loot from Find item?

    Cheers
    J
     
  11. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape Diabloii.Net Member

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    Mostly the find item yes, but also the ruthless efficiency of completely ignoring minions. You will have nearly as good of succes in ancient tunnels with a pure blizz sorc so don't feel like you're missing out or anything. Just focus on boss packs and champs on /p1 and you'll do really well, no need or benefit in doing full clears or messing with monsters that can't drop Tyrael's. The trick is to find a niche you're comfortable in and just put in the time and eventually you'll get lucky. I still haven't found a Tyrael's and well, look at my joined date.
     
  12. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Yes, find item is among the things which make him better... if you can enjoy playing like that. I suggest to have a look at the Youtube videos involving them. I could not play the game at that pace for that long and if you are doing things slower, you might be better off with a different character.

    Enigma ist worth having, but I think you don't need it for the grail, except you really want to paly a Pit zerker and probably die from a heart attack much ssoner than necessary :). I would make Infinity first.
     
  13. helvete

    helvete Diabloii.Net Member

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  14. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I guess you are aiming at the typos in my recent posting. That's pretty normal to happen for me. I can assure you that I'm totally sober :)
     
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  15. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape Diabloii.Net Member

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    There's also the option of the pit singer Barb, nearly as fast and efficient as the Pit zerker but practically invincible and much less intense to play.
     
  16. pharphis

    pharphis Diabloii.Net Site Pal

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    I can't see AT -> pindle being more effective than just running AT back to back, especially since pindle is basically 2 AT bosses, which can't drop tyrael's.

    Also, it's very easy to talk to warriv or whatever his name is as you start the next game to "travel west" and be in the rogue camp a few steps away from the WP. that ~1-2 second extra movement isn't nearly as bad as teleporting back to the wp and switching acts to kill pindle who can't drop tyrael's!
     
  17. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    I think it's worth doing if you have a good Tunnels map and a short way to it from the Lost City waypoint. Also, if you end up in act 5, it's a shorter way from the starting point to the waypoint, stash and vendors.
     
  18. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape Diabloii.Net Member

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    Of course if you already HAVE Tyrael's or get it very early due to some amazing luck, then Pindle becomes a much more attractive detour, if nothing else than to add some variety.
     
  19. japanzaman

    japanzaman Diabloii.Net Member

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    Holy Freeze won't help against a cold immune anyway, which is really the only reason aside from the Insight aura we need our merc for AT runs with a blizz sorc.

    You could jus use a might merc for more killing, but at P1 with fortitude you should kill fast enough anyway. The prayer aura means you won't even have to think about using potions if using Battle Orders, but even without it heals pretty fast. Plus it synergizes with Insight so it means even mana burners won't even cause you to pause for a minute.

    Going for the grail means making things as hassle free and easy as possible. Potions, healing, having to worry about death and stuff slows you down over time. You'll be doing 20k-30k runs to complete a grail at AT if you are lucky so make it as hassle free as possible.
     
  20. Albatross

    Albatross Diabloii.Net Member

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    Incorporating Pindle in my AT runs added only ~8s to the my average of 45s. However, in terms of finding Tyrael's it's an extra ~156 hours of work for some diversity in runs (two and a half months of 2h/day grind).

    I've made this spreadsheet after another Templar's dropped. (I'm at ~400MF/45s column without Pindle, 53s with Pindle included):

    Screen Shot 2017-06-23 at 09.35.26.png

    It nicely shows how MF diminishing returns make stacking inefficient, improving your run speed is what matters the most. A 300MF, 40s run is as good as a 500MF 45s run.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017

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