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Hm. I've changed my views on abortion.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Technetium, Mar 30, 2004.

  1. Technetium

    Technetium IncGamers Member

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    Hm. I've changed my views on abortion.

    Well, it seems like it's just about time for the forum to come back to this flamew- er, debate.

    In the past, I have argued that it doesn't matter if a fetus is or isn't a human life, because it is parasitic in nature and therefore the host holds the right to get rid of it. I also went and said that even children are parasites in the figurative sense. While I still think that the parasite comparison holds true, I've come to realize some other important factors. Mainly, that a person chooses to be burdened by this parasite (bear with me on this, I do make exceptions). I'm not convinced that a fetus is a full human life, but I accept the possibility, and that's enough. So, my opinion now is that abortion should be only legal for the following circumstances:

    1. That four-letter censored word having to do with forced sex. It still doesn't seem right to me that a life should be ended, but it also doesn't seem right that the woman, who wanted nothing to do with the situation, has been so burdened by it. So I think we should allow abortions for this case. However, if the woman chooses to have the abortion, and the criminal responsible for the whole thing has been captured, he should be charged with some low-degree murder. While he did not actively end the life, it was his choice upon forcing himself that necessitated the woman having to make a choice of her own. If she chooses to keep the child, then the criminal, if captured and put in jail, should be forced to work during his stay to raise money to provide for the child (we'll say 80% of his pay goes to child support, just to give him some minor incentive to work hard).

    2. If it is almost certain that it will be stillborn for whatever reason.

    3. If the woman develops a problem that endangers her own life.

    Why did I change my opinion on all other cases? It has to do with one word: responsibility. If you have sex, no matter what kind of protection you use (none of which are perfect), you ought to be responsible enough to be ready to accept the unexpected. Otherwise, keep it in the pants. It's not impossible. I've done it for 26 years straight, and I'm still here to talk about it.

    I said before that I am not convinced a fetus constitutes a legitimate human life, but I think it is possible. In this case, any non-zero odds are good enough. Ask yourself this: If I told you that you could push a button and get a million dollars, but there was a 10% chance that someone's baby would die as a result, would you push it?
     
  2. Carnage-DVS

    Carnage-DVS IncGamers Member

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    ONE MILLIOOON DOLLARS!

    Sorry had to say it.
     
  3. dantose

    dantose IncGamers Member

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    $1,000,000 canadian or us? also is the baby canadian or US? you know that our babies are worth 1.3097 canadian babies.
     
  4. Freemason

    Freemason Banned

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    What made you change your mind?

    I'm still in favor of abortion up to 15 weeks. Even though I detest the practice, I believe in the freedom of choice.
     
  5. LunarSolaris

    LunarSolaris IncGamers Member

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    Tech, those are pretty much my sentiments exactly on this subject.

    I'm about responsibility (both the man AND the woman). I believe there are certainly exceptions to this rule (of which, you mentioned), but I just personally cannot justify abortion under other circumstances because I truly believe that the fetus is a life. It may not be a fully developed life, and it might not be able to live outside of the mother, but it is a life none the less.

    The issue to me is not about choice at all or disempowering women - it's about being responsible for all human life. Period.
     
  6. Technetium

    Technetium IncGamers Member

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    I was listening at work to NPR's debate about the law proposed which would make harming a fetus illegal (and it seems to be as ambiguously written as that). The whole debate got sidetracked because pro-choice advocates see it as an attempt to undermine Roe vs. Wade, and it just so happened that the people they had on defending the bill also happen to be pro-life. Eventually I got into my own tangent of thought, and I dunno... Sometimes things just click together differently in your head than they did before.

    About the 15 weeks thing... Is that when the first heartbeat occurs? I think perhaps that there could be some cutoff point. I mean, 2, 4, or even 8 cells have no chance at all of having any brain activity. The only thing which would make me say that even this should be protected is that even at that point, those cells have full, unique DNA of its own, separate from the mother. But I suppose that things have to be balanced with some level of practicality.
     
  7. Stevinator

    Stevinator IncGamers Member

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    that quote and some chicken broth makes trouble stew.

    also the difference is not that much...even if the canadien baby was only "worth" (by your estimation) about 3/4's of a baby i still think people would make the same decision.

    okay now since my pretending to not notice that was a joke has officially ruined the joke itself we can continue with the conversation and not pay any more attention to that post.

    Tech--

    if you think the fetus is not yet human life, then it should not be illegal to abort it. that doesn't mean it's not wrong to abort it...but if that's your stance, then a woman wanting to remove the fetus is LEGALLY only removing a parasite. While I agree in cases of ****, there is a tough moral question...i don't think it is the government's job to dictate right vs. wrong.

    the law is not a function of right an wrong..it's a fucntion of order. i don't think a woman who aborts her baby should be jailed. it just doesn't seem right.

    I may have personal and moral objections to abortion, but I don't think the law should be punishing it.

    Abortion is a sticky issue. i hope this disscussion doesn't get too rowdy. when i was on here a lot last week i saw a few threads get rather "heated" (PUN!). hopefully this won't be another of those episodes.
     
  8. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    Damn, we just going over abortion in morals and ethics class and some very good points have been brought up. It would take 3+ pages to mention all of them. Only thing im gonna say is that i'm in favor of pro-choice because a fetus is the same as an animal. It has no mind, moral judgement, etc. Or as Kant would say, it's not autonomous (sp?).

    One thing that would get rid of this whole debate would be if there was a way to be able to sustain the baby in a test tube without placing it inside another person.
     
  9. TurdFergusen

    TurdFergusen Banned

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    Abortions for some! Miniature flags for everybody!
     
  10. Ezcabe

    Ezcabe IncGamers Member

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    Tech, I believe in most of your views,except I fully belive that a fetus is a human life. But I think that if someone is ***** that they should also consider adoption.
     
  11. AeroJonesy

    AeroJonesy IncGamers Member

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    But it will be. Isn't that worth something?
     
  12. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Although I believe that abortion is a terrible form of birth control, I still support a woman's right to choose. Women are not livestock. Birth control is not 100% effective. It is not your place or mine to make such a monumental decision, but rather this decision should rest by and between those involved. Such a choice is rarely easy for anybody.

    Say what you will, but I will be damned if I would support making new laws that force women to be slaves to their own reproductive system.
     
  13. Steel_Avatar

    Steel_Avatar IncGamers Member

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    I disagree with the argument from responsibility, because it makes the eventual child into a punishment.
     
  14. DrunkPotHead

    DrunkPotHead IncGamers Member

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    In a reading for pro-choice, this example was given: imagine that space aliens came to earth and they could clone you using a single cell from your body. So killing any 1 cell would be killing a potential person...

    This is pretty far fetched, but there is some validity to it. I don't necessarily agree with that example but tomorrow's philosophy class should hopefully shed some more light on the subject of 'potential'.
     
  15. Yaboosh

    Yaboosh IncGamers Member

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    Potentiality exists in the same way with sperm and eggs, but it isnt inevitable like an embryo is. There is no question whether or not upon conception the embryo is human life or not. It is most certainly alive and it is most certainly human. The question is whether or not the full protection of the laws should be extended to it. Obviously, due to Roe v Wade and numerous follow up cases, the fetus does not have full protection of the laws.
     
  16. Pierrot le Fou

    Pierrot le Fou IncGamers Member

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    How does prohibiting abortion increase responsibility? The lack of choice states the lack of a belief in responsibility, hence the need to prohibit a certain form of action. Responsibility is not denying people choice, it's giving them that choice and asking them to be responsible enough not to take it if they view it as a negative thing.

    We do not learn from being coddled, and if it takes an abortion for someone to 'correct' their line of thinking, then that's the price we pay. I am not every woman's uterus, and I do not believe I have right to dictate what legislation she wants to pass inside it.
     
  17. Hippie Holocost

    Hippie Holocost IncGamers Member

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    I've always been pro-choice (read: pro-abortion) but lately I've been having second thoughts too.

    Recently, I thought that my girlfriend had gotten pregnant. Now we always use protection and everything, but something....er.....didn't work right.


    Anyway, because we are in a long distance relationship, we always said that IF she was pregnant, we would have an abortion. Well when I was 99% sure that I was going to have a child, I couldn't bring myself to take her to planned parenthood or something like that.

    Going through that experience is the most horrific thing that a human being will ever have to do. Luckily she wasn't pregnant, but now I know that if she ever is, then I will never let her have an abortion, unless of course there is some health reason...

    Note- This has nothing to do with religion or morals with me. Just having that feeling that I created a person gave me enough guilt about even considering destroying it.
     
  18. Deathwing

    Deathwing Banned

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    Well, I for one am glad you won't let that silly female make up her own mind, all this freedom malarky is just getting out of hand. What is she even doing out of the kitchen anyway?

    You didn't create a person. At worst you might have created a small lump of cells. Do you think you would have felt better knowing you had trashed your life (and hers) by "forcing" her to do what you want?
     
  19. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    So, looks like everyone who has posted thus far is a dude. Interesting, but not especially surprising.

    Anyway, I'm in the Llad/PLF camp. White dudes in navy suits and red ties shouldn't make laws that affect the reproductive bits of women. That is to say, as a dude, I've no right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.
     
  20. Kitana

    Kitana IncGamers Member

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    How in the world do you know if that would "trash" both of their lives?

    I'm also for 'banning' abortion, except in extreme cases. Hey, you were the one that decided you were ready to have sex... you should be the one that is prepared for the consequences. I also think the fathers should be able to have more say-so in what goes on, but I guess that's for a different thread entirely :)
     

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