HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Liquid_Evil

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

I scoured through some search engines, but since it has been so long, nothing remains. I think they were pretty standard PvP rules with the addition of some FRW caps (nothing over 110% I think), so OW bleeders couldn't constantly run away as if they were a Rabies Druid, plus the straight out banning of Smite, Whirlwind, and Rabies. We also still dueled in Nightmare back then.

I had entered a wolfbarb (ignoring all resists since I assumed physical dmg only), and I ran into a Charged Strike zon on my side of the bracket and was totally astounded how 9K health could be drained away in ~3-4 pokes. :/ It was still a lot of fun, but you should be clear on whether you want physical damage only, or if CS zons, Tesladins, and Fire Claws bears are fine in the mix.
 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

How about this as a ruleset? Still open for comments obviously.


Rules
Soft rules are intended for friendly, open session melee PvP games. If using these rules for a tournament, only the Hard Rules apply.

The Soft Rules
- Play to the spirit of the rules, not the letter.
- WW Barbs and Smiters are banned by default, but if you want to join a game for some BvB duelling on The Cold Plains for example, you may. If you want to duel with other melee builds you may, if you ask first and get agreement from the other players in the game.
- If you want to join with an elemental melee character you may, if you ask first and get agreement from the other players in the game.

The Hard Rules

Standard BM Rules
The standard BM Rules all apply as usual:
- No potions (except mana potions), mercs, wells, or shrines.
- No recasting Cyclone and Bone Armour.
- No minions that cannot be summoned in town with the exception of Decoy.
- No Holy Freeze, Decrepify, Slow Missiles, or Bone Prison.
- No mass slow (>10%), no mass poison from items (>200), no mass replenish (>25).
- No curse charges (this includes Slow Missiles). Chance to cast (ctc) is acceptable.
- No over absorb. Limit 2 items per element with the standard ban on Rising Sun and Black Oak. Mana potions are allowed for all characters except ES based sorcs

Melee PvP Rules
- Duel take place in Nightmare.
- Faster Run/Walk (FRW) is capped at 110 total from skills and equipment.
- Teleport is banned for all classes.
- All ranged attacks are banned. This includes mind blast.
- Elemental damage from Aura Pulses or ctc is capped at ???? (help here).
- Rabies, Smite and Whirlwind are banned. (But see Soft Rules section above.)
- Life Tap is banned, including from ctc.



Notes
- I have included the soft rule on the WW Barbs and Smiters so that new players can join with something like a Trav WW build and get a taste of duelling. I also have a BvB, so if there are a few people who want to do some duelling, I see no reason to not allow them to use an area for that.
- Similarly I have not banned all elemental damage as I would like to see things like Fireclaws bears on the moor.
- I know FRW from skills doesn't suffer from diminising returns like it does from items, but this is the simplest was to introduce a cap. It prevents an OW hit an run tactic.
- I personally see little point in using a Shadow Master, but I will allow here even though she may use MB. Without teleport, this should be pretty rare anyway.
- In order to stop people stacking aura's and avoiding having to make a melee hit, There is a limit to aura damage. Someone help give me a realistic number here?



@Liquid: Are we going to see you out of retirement for this one? I was hoping to see The Ancients in a team game....
 
Last edited:

nulio

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Soft rules are intended for friendly, open session melee PvP games. If using these rules for a tournament, only the Hard Rules apply.
Nitpicking but, I think the quoted text should be before the soft rules, or it could be confusing in the first read.
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

FRW from skills and equipment works different. Let's cap run speed (or say "Your speed is capped at the speed which is achieved with 110 FRW from equipment"). Nitpicking, I know.

It seems to me like a Bearsorc with full Enchant and a 'Dream' will be viable here. Is that something you want? Note: even if you cap aura pulse damage, LM applies to pulse damage once, it squares on melee addition.
 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

- I know FRW from skills doesn't suffer from diminising returns like it does from items, but this is the simplest was to introduce a cap. It prevents an OW hit an run tactic.
The skills+items clac is how (IIRC) the old GM duelling rules were written, so I am just re-hashing it here.

I don't know enough about bear-sorcs, but I will leave it open for comment at the moment.



 

barren

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Does this mean my kicker assassin can't user venom?
 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Does this mean my kicker assassin can't user venom?
Venom is allowed. As it is ctc on Grief anyway, I would have trouble banning it. So I can clarify it, what in the rules made you think it was banned?

Actually one thing I forgot about was use of WW by Assassins. Opinions anyone?



 

Denton

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Actually one thing I forgot about was use of WW by Assassins. Opinions anyone?
I think WW for Assassins should be allowed.

Whirlwind is a powerful skill, as it's like a short range area of effect attack around the user while moving. But, on assassins, even with unrestricted rules, it's more suitable for attacking caster type characters, not so much against other melee characters.

Some points of reasoning:

- Without Mind Blast it doesn't put the opponent into hit recovery automatically from every hit.

- Claws have only a range of 2 (barbs typically have a range of 3), so clip-whirling doesn't work so well. For example a zealot with a range 3 weapon should have good chances against ww-sin.

- It's extremely difficult to get really high physical damage on a ww-sin, and even with perfect equipment the damage is nowhere near a ww-barb's damage.

- With Venom it can inflict damage quite fast, but even with a beta Bramble its damage is not comparable to ww-barbs.

- Assassins have Claw Block (which works while whirling), but they have low defense.



Against builds that do not have uninterruptible attack, it can be quite strong (because it attacks fast and is uninterruptible), but due to the aforementioned points, it shouldn't be overpowered.

Wolves for example could do well with a 2-handed hurt stick, because without MB, ww-sin's whirl shouldn't put them into hit recovery much (too low physical damage), and well wolves have very fast hit recovery anyway.

It is possible to do a strong ww-sin for melee fights, but without traps, MB and Teleport, I don't think it's a top-tier build for this event, and certainly not as dangerous as a ww-barb.



 

barren

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Venom is allowed. As it is ctc on Grief anyway, I would have trouble banning it. So I can clarify it, what in the rules made you think it was banned?

Actually one thing I forgot about was use of WW by Assassins. Opinions anyone?
I wasn't sure if venom fell under the elemental category.

As for allowing WWsins my opinion is heavily biased, since they're one of my favourite archetypes, so hell ya! Let them in!!!



 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

As for allowing WWsins my opinion is heavily biased, since they're one of my favourite archetypes, so hell ya! Let them in!!!
Mine too, so I am biased. I'll wait a bit to see if someone objects before I mod the rules.



 

Paradigmshift

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Thanks for asking this zemaj, because I was thinking exactly the same thing. I have a daggermancer sitting on the burner wanting to be built, and this would be just the incentive, though not sure with all the projects I have going at the moment whether I could finish it in time.
 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Just so I am 100% clear on this: Melee-Sorc variants will be acceptable? What about a Daggermancer? An elemental Pally
All allowed. The duel in NM rule is designed to give elemental duellers a penalty but not rule them out. We will try it and see how it goes.



 

Entwilighter

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Got my char pretty well ready (thanks scrcrw!). :D

Hopefully I can line up some time for this!
 

Liquid_Evil

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

@Liquid: Are we going to see you out of retirement for this one? I was hoping to see The Ancients in a team game....
Stranger things have happened I suppose. Depends on what I'm doing when this takes place, but I wouldn't get my hopes *too* high. We'll see.

As for the WW assy exception, I'm with those that say they are fine and should be allowed. :thumbup:



 

maxicek

Moderator Single Player
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

Another thought: Do we allow conviction with elemental auras?
I'm specifically thinking of Dual Dream Tesladins running conviction too.

I'll re-post the rules a bit later including the WW Assassin.

And a build question: Cannot be frozen - Essential or nice to have? If I use dual Angelics and Verdundo's to get 50%DR with Stormshield, fitting it in gets tricky....?
 

Denton

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

@ Conviction + elemental damage auras: Well, all the other allowed melee builds can be used pretty much at their full potential in this event, so why nerf just some specific elemental damage melee builds? I would vote yes for Conviction.

Also maybe there should be something in the rules to prevent abusing the elemental damage aura pulse damage? To limit running around the opponent while letting the pulse damage wear down the opponent's life and nerves little by little.

As a side note, even though a physical damage only melee event would also be a nice idea, it seems like a good choice to allow all melee builds regardless of their damage type. That allows for nice diversity. Also dueling on NM seems like a good compromise for giving more power to elemental damage builds, while not making it too difficult to max a resist or two.


@ Cannot Be Frozen: In general it's essential for any melee build except ones based on whirlwind (whirlwind's attack speed isn't affected by any form of slowing effect). Even on builds with whirlwind it's usually not good to be chilled because it degrades mobility a lot. In many cases CBF or no CBF can decide between winning or losing.

Even with 1.13's rune drop chances, Cham is quite a bold socketing option for PvP purpose only, but if you have a Cham laying around which you don't know where to use, and happen to have a really good item to stick it into, then that's an option.

It's quite likely that people have at least some source of cold damage, either by chance or on purpose, e.g. some useful charm that has some cold damage by coincidence.

I always considered it good to try to have at least some source of cold damage, just in case if there would be an opponent that doesn't have CBF.
 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

About CBF: Ravenfrost is also a popular choice for many reasons, and it comes with a bonus 4 sec cold damage (2 in NM).
 

Denton

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

About CBF: Ravenfrost is also a popular choice for many reasons, and it comes with a bonus 4 sec cold damage (2 in NM).
Yeah it's most of the time the default choice for at least 1 of the ring slots on PvP chars (and for many PvM melee builds as well), and sometimes people build a character around its +dex to save stat points for getting max CtB or fulfill an item's requirement, that's why +20 dex Ravens are very desirable for PvP builds.

I didn't mention Raven Frost because maxicek asked about if CBF is necessary when you don't have space for a Raven Frost or Trang's belt for example (i.e. an easy source of CBF):
And a build question: Cannot be frozen - Essential or nice to have? If I use dual Angelics and Verdundo's to get 50%DR with Stormshield, fitting it in gets tricky....?
Raven Frost gives a nice AR bonus, but Angelic rings (together with the amulet usually; the Sabre or Ring Mail aren't too hawt really : P) give much higher AR, which is useful and sometimes even necessary against some very high defense opponents.



 

Greebo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: HLD PvP Melee Duelling Discussion

What I meant to say, and I wasn't clear: since Ravenfrost is such a popular choice, a lot of people will be doing cold damage (source: RF), hence the need for CBF, in whatever form.

Death's Set maybe a good choice (30 IAS, CBF, 50 PR), no potions in PvP. That is if you want to keep both pieces of Angelic set.
 
Top