Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

help with ias speed on doubleclaw sassy;

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by MrGoth, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. MrGoth

    MrGoth IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    help with ias speed on doubleclaw sassy;

    I'm hoping that I read and understood all the ias tables right. It is to my understanding for tiger strike to get its best frames per attack at 7 it would require 70% ias, and for dragon claw to be at its best of 10 frames it would need 91% ias.


    My idea is to duelweld 2 shadowkillers, which has -10 weapon speed. I would also have 40% ias from gear {20 gloves, 20 highlords}. I'll most likely socket the claws both with ed/ias jewels, so effectivly tiger strike would have 55% ias already. My question is how does the base weapon speed work in the ias table? And how would having ias from both claws work for dc?

    I dont really want to break down and use BoS, i wanted to use fade on this one. Will I have to be investing in alot of ias gear to reach 7tiger/10dc attack speeds?

    And finally, are non-venom physical martial arts sassys playable threw hell?

    The skills I plan on using;
    ~tiger strike 20
    ~dragon claw 20
    ~claw mastery 20
    ~fade 20
    ~weapon block 5
    ~shadow master 5-10
    ~blade fury ~1 maybe, might not be as effective without venom
    ~dragon flight ~1 to fill out the kicks
    ~possibly more in dtalon for a 2nd offensive type.
     
  2. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    165
    There are two issues with what you are trying to do. One is table look-up, the other is skill placement.

    IAS
    The WSM (when both weapons are the same) is the same as the base speed of either weapon. So, for you it is -10. Looking at the tables, the numbers for 0 BOS are 1480 for Dragon Claw and 120 for Tiger Strike. Since it is impossible to get 1480 IAS on equipment, I would consider different weapons, or (more likely) using BoS.

    IAS only counts from your primary claw. You could socket the glove-side with an ED/IAS jewel, and put something more potent in the other. That would still net you the 55 IAS you were expecting.

    Skills/equipment
    First of all, it is not a wise investment to do Tiger Strike with Dragon Claw. To put it bluntly, there is little to no increase of damage over time, even assuming that you are hitting the charge-ups and attacks perfectly. Venom would be a far better investment, and would contribute to any blade skills you choose to use.

    Fade is a great skill, but there are a couple issues with that also. The only reason for having it at the levels you are planning has to do with the 1% PDR/level. Diminshing returns kills the majority of your resistance boosting at high levels.


    I wanted to design a Claws of Thunder sin with Fade (same IAS issue as Dragon Claw), and the results can be found here:
    http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=238963

    Also note - Full Nat's set would be useful with Bartucs (or other fast primary). A pure physical build works best with high Crushing Blow and Open Wounds, in addition to Death Sentry backup. Your Shadow Killers will interfere with corpses for Death Sentry.
     
  3. MrGoth

    MrGoth IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    ~

    The idea behind this was to put duel shadowkillers to use along with a specific set of gloves. The problem with the gloves is that they are not trang's, thus the idea of ditching venom sank in my head. I'd like to see all routes with shadowkillers before this assassin's path changes...so before i change weapons lets stick with them for a bit.

    I planned on investing in a grotesquly overpowered merc for support {ethdoom/might merc}. I didnt want to add in any sort of laying down traps in this character, just possibly blade shield since the claws would not loose durability, and 1 pt in blade fury for fun.

    As i look at the tables for ias with bos, make sure i'm right on this, with lvl 26 bos I would still need 105% ias for dragon claw?

    If I can manage to get a good speed of dragon claw, and tiger strike is flawed as you say, would investing those 20 points in venom work ok with dragon claw? I assume the venom would do its damage over the duration of 5 frames that each claw would be hitting at.

    Thanks for helping btw. ;)
     
  4. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    165
    The IAS lookup is right now. Congrats.

    Mind sharing what those gloves are? I don't think an assassin can properly be designed without taking everything into consideration. Most of them can be played untwinked, but that is an entirely different ball game.

    Anyway, if you are adamant on skipping Death Sentry, then Shadow Killers make great weapons. I would see them being most useful in a martial arts build, including your pure Dragon Claw build. Your merc will be rather useful, and I would also consider buffing up a Shadow Master to help you out.

    The merc equipment is (as I see it) only missing one thing: crushing blow. Big monsters will still fall slowly to a pure damage based assassin.

    On to skills, something like this would be a good base:
    ~dragon claw 20
    ~claw mastery 20
    ~bos = 26 minus equipment
    ~weapon block 5
    ~shadow master 18 minus equipment (or more)
    ~blade fury/shield 1
    ~dragon flight 1
    ~mind blast, cloak of shadows 1 each
    Extra points into Venom.

    I would grab two +3 shadow disciplines claws (shopped from Anya with a high level character or bought cheaply) for casting BoS. That will save you a fair amount on skill points in BoS and Shadow Master.

    Crushing Blow, and therefore Goreriders are a must for this build (imho).

    Everything else is finding out if there is a set of equipment that balances out your needs:
    max or near-max resists in hell
    IAS (105-40-15 = 50 remaining)
    46 FHR
    high damage output
    high DR
     
  5. MrGoth

    MrGoth IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    ~

    The gloves I planned on using were these;

    http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/197185/snaps.jpg

    I had also planned on using;
    ~Chains wire
    ~dungos {max %dr with fade, might have to make a change}
    ~gorries, possibly upped since my ma skills will be higher than normal
    ~highlords
    ~1x frost
    ~2nd ring most likely switching for absorbing specific critters, or maybe bul katho's
    ~kiras or gaint skull
    ~cta/lidless on weapon switch.

    ~10x ma skillers, 1x anni, 9x random sc's.

    That would give me a 26 bos if i cast it before my cta wears off.

    The merc would be using %ed armor, eth doomy, and delerium if i can find a nice etheral one.


    I had planned origonally to stack open wounds and cb from gear such as gaint skull and gorries and the gloves and such. But without fade i feel i might have to go with kiras to make up the resistance.


    Also, the 105% ias is a grotesque amount to me...and i dont mind at all going down one frame rate on dragon claw if that means i can open up the doors on more effective gear.


    I'm still not sure why tiger strikes damage would not be as impressive as it could be? I must be ignorant on some obvious issue here.
     
  6. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    165
    You could try for a Dragon Talon build with one Shadow Killer and a nice shield (or bartucs to drop the WSM, or Jade for the resists).

    I don't have time right now for breaking out the damage spreadsheet, but tiger strike is usually less effective because you go 2-3 attacks without any real ED, then get one release, and the second claw attack with DC ed. Not to mention that a slower attack delivers CB less often.
     
  7. MrGoth

    MrGoth IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    ~

    I did alot of reading up on tiger strike, I think I understand now.

    So is there any other calculators out there for dclaw attack speeds at 11 or 12 frames? I dont think the game works in half frames, since dclaw is cut down the middle for each claw attack...so i dont know if 11 frames is even possible?
     
  8. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    165
    If you don't mind a little reading, and a little bit of calculating, then the EIAS tables are what you want to look at. Those are at the end of the IAS tables.

    Just remember that EIAS = (Skill IAS) + 120*IAS/(120+IAS) - WSM
    The non-linear diminishing returns formula on the IAS is what makes this so difficult to do in the first place. This can be done by hand, or even better it works on a spreadsheet.
     
  9. MrGoth

    MrGoth IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    ~

    I hope i do this right. I'll try and type it here so if it is right, it might help someone else.

    I'll have to do two sets of calc's because I'm not sure if dc can be put in to half frames {11 or 12}.

    EIAS --> IAS conversion formula:
    EIAS= (120*IAS)/(120+IAS)

    IAS --> EIAS conversion formula:
    IAS=(120*EIAS)/(120-EIAS)

    The bos ias is eias, so assuming i use the same gear that I plan, i can max bos and come out with +6 extra, leaving me with +55 attack speed.

    Also, shadowkillers have -10 speed, so that adds +10 to that, making it 65 eias already.

    The eias required for a 12 frame dc is 64. So that takes care of having to do two calculations :D .

    The eias required for an 11 frame dc is 76 although...so i need to come up with 11 eias from ias gear...

    I'm really sorry if this is like "follow along with me and make sure I didnt screw up." Wording my math is the generally the only way I can work, its the only way I ever worked out electron shell ranges in CHM, and carbons in organic.

    I guess I can just start plugging numbers in from random ias gear that I would attempt to use...so i'll start with 15% ias from a jewel in the claws:

    EIAS= [120 (15)]/[120+(15)] = 13.333~~

    :clap:

    This turned out to be a breeze...


    But, this does lead to one question; since this is for dragon claw, is a 15% ias jewel required in each claw or just the initial?

    And last question is still if dc can work half frames {11}, or does it have to be even {12}.



    edits; I have forgotten that I would already have 40%ias from gloves & highlords...so i'm going to possibly work around with lowering my bos:

    EIAS= [120 (55)]/[120+(55)] = 37.71 eias...

    Instead actually after re~checking those eias tables, it said dc needed 91 ias to have 10 frames attack...

    And it just so happens that 65 + 37 = 102... So i can effectivly take 11 ias from bos, meaning it would only need 44% ias...which is at level 9. I could effectivly leave bos at a base level of 3...

    If anyone has the time, please check, I hope I didnt make a mistake.
     
  10. ilkori

    ilkori IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Isn't it great? The algebra looks good. I didn't check the numbers or the BoS lookups, but they all passed the sanity check (no EIAS coming from a smaller IAS, etc.)

    For all dual-claw setups using the EIAS formulas (DC, Talon, etc.), you only need the IAS jewels/mods on the primary claw. It never transfers from the secondary.
     

Share This Page