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Help Me Own Casters.

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Trojan Man, May 30, 2005.

  1. Trojan Man

    Trojan Man IncGamers Member

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    Help Me Own Casters.

    What are Some Chars that can Own Sorcs? Anything other than a Necro or Bower or trapsin they just too cheap. I would like to make a melee char that owns casters. Anyone can gimme a idea??
     
  2. Mana

    Mana IncGamers Member

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    BvC barb? http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=346428
    MageSlayer Kicksin? (the links on the main site)
     
  3. Phyrexial

    Phyrexial IncGamers Member

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    Any character can beat sorcs with the correct resist/absorb gear. However, I assume you mean without that. Good WW sins kill sorcs pretty easily, BvC barbs can as well.
     
  4. RetroStar

    RetroStar IncGamers Member

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    WW Sins are amazing vs. casters. OW + Venom is deadly.
     
  5. luis19

    luis19 IncGamers Member

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    downside for wwsins is that they cannot effectively duel more than 1 person at a time since they rely on stunlocking.
     
  6. Darknicrofia

    Darknicrofia IncGamers Member

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    i've seen unconventional hybrid ghost sins that uses LS and WW to duel, those are deadly with the correct gear and playing skills and is able to handle more than 1 player at a time unlike the fire/ww hybrid. And LS hybrids have more range effectiveness in duels. and btw luis, u mind dueling against my bvc barb on east nl someday, I need to break out of the pub dueling crowd, they are just too easy to own. /w *darknicrofia
     
  7. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    There are ways around that stunlock issue. I've been dueling sorcs and necros extensively without resorting to traps, of late. You do you mindblast, but that's mainly to be able to right hotkey-flash teleport/WW. You recreate the old 1.09 version of DF without all the 1.10 nerfs that brought it down. No trap needed and instant slam. The only time this becomes an issue is if they are very fast, as they will sometimes be gone before your tele completes. They all have to stop to shoot however, barring aa. Therefore, you will be able to score major hits. That's not to say traps aren't important, but running attacks then become very possible. Further, the real challenge shifts to being able to get rapid MB namelock on defensive casters who won't even let you on their screen.
     
  8. luis19

    luis19 IncGamers Member

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    vs multiple good opponents i see no way for a wwsin/kicker to effectively take out all of them.

    wwsins main advantage vs otherbuilds is its stunlocking abilities which allow it to apply and reapply venom/ow. w/o stunlocking a wwsin is a very very weak ww barb with less life (but clawblock), who moves slow and casts slow.

    to mb someone then attack requires the sin to be still while mbing and laying traps if necessary. this means the sin is vulnerable to whoever isnt namelocked, meaning you cannot effectively stunlock and kill a person if multiple people are simutaneously attacking you.
    also you could argue that 1 mb + directly attacking afterwards will decrease this time of vulnerability, however factor in that with enough fhr most good casters can tele away from a sins mb+tele since they cast relatively slow.

    dark - once i finish my nec and fber ill hit you up for some duels if i remember. bvb barb vs bvc barb is pointless for you.
     
  9. skilledlord

    skilledlord IncGamers Member

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    I'll go with a ww barb with beast+botd zerk. fast, high damage, you can kill them in 1 or 2 hits. or maybe a kicksin.
     
  10. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    What's your point? If you are fighting multiple GOOD opponents, not even a ww barb will be able to take them ALL out. Barbs are good Luis, but they don't own quite that well. If the barb does take down the opposing multiple GOOD sorcs and necros all by himself, then those sorcs and necros weren't all that good to begin with.

    Maybe and maybe not. Clawblock can make a big BIG difference. Further, the venom goes through things like bone armor and ES. Barbs have OW but not an instant application poison attack. Assassins have DF, which, while buggy, can work well if you use tele to position it first. Assassins have fade, which reduces the necro curse duration to next to nothing. Further, assassins have a recastable minion stack in their shadowmaster.

    And all that is above and beyond their stunlocking capacity, which you correctly extoll.

    No.
    First: The SM/MB technique has been talked about extensively on the assassin forum by myself and verified by other duelers. It works and works well.
    Second: With skill, you can get name-lock through MB very quickly, followed up by a near instant tele+WW.

    Assassins using 65 FC, have fast, quick tele and fast MB. More than enough to get the job done. I've played assassins, barbs and sorcs at all tele speeds. Above a certain level, superfast cast only aids defensive players because it doubles up, desyncs, and becomes generally very hard to gain accuracy with.


    In any event, you are describing a situation of a team vs. you and you alone. This is hardly what the original poster was describing. Also, it's not a situation that occurs all that often, unless you are in a BM pubby with a gang on your *ss or in a GM league or group game in which the rest of your team is dead. Free-for-alls don't count as a "team" vs. you in any event, otherwise they aren't really FFAs.

    Vs. an individual sorc or necro, a ww-sin played correctly can do as well as any barb, indeed I think they can do better. In a team match, the barb DOES have the advantage but a good ww-sin should by no means be counted out.
     
  11. luis19

    luis19 IncGamers Member

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    some matchups, like 5 necs vs 1 barb, are obviously near impossible, if not impossible.

    however if its say a nec, 2 sorcs, its pretty beatable with a barb. just aviod the nec (which isnt hard since besides a few ibs, you really only get hit when attacking the nec) till the end.

    my point is, a barb is faster because all they have to do is tele ww, and throw in some leap if needed.
    tele = 10 frames with 40 fcr
    ww = 4 frames

    on the other hand a sin has to usually mb before attacking.
    mb = 11 frames to cast if 65 fcr
    tele = 11 more frames
    ww = 4 frames

    and im not sure if mb by itself causes fhr or only after a hit once the swirly thing is out. if so that would mean either another mb or laying a trap. but im not sure on this.
    necro = 9 frame to tele 6 frame fhr
    sorc = 7-8 frame tele 7 frame fhr
    pally = 9 frame tele 4 frame fhr

    i wasnt talking about the sm/mb thing, but if im right about the extra hit to cause fhr after mb, then it would still require another 11 frame cast or however many frames it takes to lay traps (but then again you may have to lay more than 1 trap). if im wrong, sins still have slower tele than a ww barb in most cases. it is recastable, but you cannot always recast it, and in a situation where many people are attacking you, it will die pretty fast and will leave little opportunity to recast.

    yes venom goes through bone armor and ow, but i think a ww barbs high dual wield dmg makes up for it. also take note that ww barbs are range 3.

    one last point is that ww barbs are much much more flexable in gear. you can have fcr, stacked resist, dr, sorb, high ar, etc in a single setup, while with a wwsin, improving one aspect (like stacking resist or AR or sorbing) can reduce other areas significantly like speed and dmg.
    In some cases, the wwsin has nearly no flexability in gear because w/o certain items some gear isnt equippable or you lose a frame in fcr or fhr.

    1on1 duels, i wasnt talking about, but we already established that ww barbs and wwsins are almost equally effective vs most classes, give or take a few advantages/disadvantages.
     
  12. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    I'll reply to the main points because it's late. I'll hit anything left tomorrow perhaps.

    Indeed.

    Beatable? Ok, sure. Very very very hard if all the duelers are good? You bet. We can go in circles on this forever and never reach common ground so I'll let it go. I see your advantage but I think multiple good sorc/necro opponents are going to grant rare wins to EITHER class, no matter how skilled or well built they are. But again, we can agree to disagree on this one.

    Here I think you are missing the forest for the trees, however. The issue is not so much the total frames to execute a single attack as it is the EMPTY SPACE in-between.
    For either a BvC barb or a ww-sin to kill that caster, they need name-lock. That is the key. Because both follow it up with a tele/ww combo. Therefore, the speed of the MB means very little to me, other than it ADDS swirlies (a bonus not shared by barbs as they name-lock). I cannot hotkey tele/ww faster than I can process the fact that name-lock has been successful. Which means, that cast speed on MB has no noticeable impact (from my point of view) on my follow-up actions. What does matter is the tele and ww. The difference, as you point out, is 1 frame. That 1 frame is hardly a major variable compared to all of the other issues. It is easily subsumed in things like connection speed, momentary but unnoticeable lag, real-life reflexes, keyboard and mouse quality, etc. The real challenge vs. a fast, defensive caster becomes getting that name-lock in the first place, as they know that is what you want and need to do. It's the tactics that get you to being able to name-lock that become critical, not the 1 frame.

    Single FHR animation on application, and then follow-up damage is required after to trigger additional FHR animations when the swirlies are active. But I don't need stun to land WWs anymore than you do. I merely use MB to achieve namelock. The stun is a bonus after-the-fact. I DO use stunlock, especially vs. hyper-aggressive necros with aa, various pallys, etc. but it's not a requirement in all cases.

    Recasting SM is a non-issue. Usually when I fail to recast, it's because I forgot and screwed up. I've never had trouble finding a half second of breathing room to recast if required, unless I was in a tank or die situation.

    I agree that a barb gets advantage points for the range factor and high physical.

    You said yourself in the assassin forum that WW-sins don't really need high AR. Your argument convinced me. So I don't think AR is an issue as long as it's in the 6K range.
    My assassin has 65 FC, 75 res all before anya, 50% dr standard. I can stack 65 extra res-all w/o losing anything but OW on one claw, and I actually gain AR and skills in the trade-off. I can add light absorb, though I do drop a casting frame. I rarely need additional absorb. The only thing I use once in a blue moon is a pair of upped spurs, and only in a situation where I am being ganged in a pubby. My CB blocks 60% of her fireballs, and that's worked fine for me.

    WW-sins ARE more equipment change-out limited, but I don't think there is that much equipment we would switch anyway. I almost never bother, other than to slap on a jade/T'gods combo vs. FoH and trappers.

    Agreed.
     
  13. '22'Souljah

    '22'Souljah IncGamers Member

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    not for my ww sin

    that's not always true i've tried randomly whirlwinding at where the caster may teleport and i've actually killed them like that before
    another thing you can do is tele to their side or bakc then DoD it's much easier to do like that
    if you namelokc them and they're spamming you might get hit
     
  14. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    [QUOTE='22'Souljah]that's not always true i've tried randomly whirlwinding at where the caster may teleport and i've actually killed them like that before[/QUOTE]
    Random whirling, though occassionally killing people, isn't something you can plan on or depend on. More likely than not, it will get you killed while in whirl.

    Not an option if they are a good/fast teleporter who knows that stopping to spam means they give you a free shot.

    If you tele/WW hotkey-flash off of a MB name-lock, that should not be a problem except very occasionally.
     
  15. RetroStar

    RetroStar IncGamers Member

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    The only problem I face with my old WW sin is their fragility. Low life + crap def. A few melee attacks will kill instantly.

    Im remaking my WW sin now though with pure vita. Hope it does better than my old one.
     
  16. Speederländer

    Speederländer IncGamers Member

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    WW sins are not at all fragile if designed correctly. Most heavy duty WW-sin duelers are sporting well over 3K life. In the age of grief and exile and fort a few melee attacks will kill almost anyone instantly if they aren't actively defending themselves.
     
  17. D-Giant

    D-Giant IncGamers Member

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    Id have to say that a well played pure charge pally can own casters pretty well.They can get well over maxed resists and still manage a upwards of 30k charge 2 handed.Plus if you desynch real well nobody will see you coming.
     
  18. luis19

    luis19 IncGamers Member

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    speederlander:
    i know i said AR isnt really an issue for wwsins, but to an extent.
    say you need stacked resist/sorb (meaning you switch out ravens for say fcr rings or sorb rings), even with enchant you're looking at some seriously low AR.
    and the reason AR isnt that much of a problem vs pallys is because of stunlock (you can lockdown a pally and ww for free hits or force them to constantly charge--inviting more free hits as you ww away.). If you are dueling multiple people you wont have a chance to set down traps and constantly MB only 1 person (since doing this would mean you are standing still and vulnerable to attacks from other ppl).

    i think im right on the unflexablility on wwsins. ex-if you have to stack vs conv or LR, you will suffer greatly in other areas seeing how with fade on with 2x ravens and HIGH resist boots max resists are barely reached (in an optimum ghost build, unless you use 9x 20/5s, but still 40 isnt enough to stack).
    stacking resist through other means like rings would mean a drastic decrease in AR and make you ezpk for cold sorcs. also many sins rely on ravens to equip claws.
    if you switch claws to say a jade, you lose the mods of a good fury.

    random/desync wwing works poorly with a wwsin. the reason it works well on a barb is because the ww dmg is MUCH higher and with a range of 3, the caster has a greater chance to be hit. Also a barb moves much faster, meaning ww moves faster, meaning it desyncs more and covers more ground.
     
  19. '22'Souljah

    '22'Souljah IncGamers Member

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    kmon the good BvC barbs can kill people without namelokc and even suggest not using it (ahem blobs) due to it's difficulty to control if they can do it we should be able to too with more practice

    my ghost sins normal setup has a ton of stakced resist and enough ar for most people except barbs and melee pallies in her regular set up (ar is 5995 in regular setup)

    cold reisist - 11 + 11 + 11 + 10 + 15 + 49 + 30 + 29 + 20 + 33 + 71 = 300 - 70(helll penalty) = 230 - 75(to reach max reisist) = 155 extra cold

    lightning reisist - 11 + 8 + 11 + 7 + 15 + 48 + 29 + 33 + 71 = 233 - 70 = 163 - 75 = ** extra lightning

    fire reisist = 8 + 15 + 48 + 29 + 29 + 33 + 71 = 233 - 70 = 163 - 65 = ** extra fire

    is that enough extra reisist or not you decide?
    btw i didn't list the items because i'm lazy but if you want to know i can post them up too
     
  20. morotsjos

    morotsjos Banned

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    [QUOTE='22'Souljah]btw i didn't list the items because i'm lazy but if you want to know i can post them up too[/QUOTE]
    Yes post them please.
     

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