Help me improve! PVP Kicker

TigerPrawn

Diabloii.Net Member
Help me improve! PVP Kicker

Before anyone beats me down with the pwn hammer, this char was designed for Ubers, a bit of PVP, and a bit of just plain fun. Based on the Monk/Warrior build.

Currently lvl 86

Gear:

Helm: Guillame's (shael'd) I know there are better choices for pvp, but this is what I got at the moment.
Armor: Dusk Enigma
Shield: Stormshield (Pdiamond)
Weapon: Um'd Fleshripper
Belt: Crafted blood belt. 10% OW, 15 str, 15 to 3 resists +19 life
Gloves: Trang's
Boots: +2 Shadow dancers
Rings: Ravenfrost, Rare dex/AR/Res ring or another Raven.
Amulet: Metal Grid

Switch: Widowmaker

Skills: 20 Dtalon, 20 Dflight, 20 Venom, 20 Fade, Maxing mindblast.

-My HP is around 1300 unbuffed
-AR for Dragon flight is around 17K, AR for Dtalon is around 16.5K

My PVP experiences thus far have been good. I try to play a very agressive hit and run game landing Dragon flight triggering OW and Venom and then taking off making them chase me into a flurry of guided arrows or another Dragon flight. I also send out a wave of Blade fury aswell for kicks and chance to trigger OW.

Barbs pose a large threat but I can beat them with kiting/hit and runs. The Hammerdins/Smiters really whup me though. How do I effectively beat them? Also any general advice or gear advice is welcome. I do well, and don't expect to dominate, but it'd be nice to at least have a chance against Hammerdins/smiters since they're always around in games.
 
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Sechler

Diabloii.Net Member
You need more fcr. I'd change out the orphan hat for 2/20 sin circ. I like that belt, but you're gonna have to give it up for arachs. Also get a nice fcr/dex/mana/res/etc Ring. That will get you to the 65 fcr break pt. You'll need it to stay mobile and out of the way of charge or tele/ww. If you don't have any pts in WoF, then sacrifice two to get it. Vs. barbs/pallies lay WoF, MB them, if they get stunned, dflight for openwounds then back off and tele around them spamming ga's. Every now and then drop more WoF's. If they get stunlocked, dflight em again. It takes a while especially vs barbs but the traps and additional fcr will help a ton. Also, Nef your Widow. I had a tough time deciding on whether to nef or um. I went nef and i love it. With BoS running, I can get arrows going fairly fast and knock chargers all over the place.
 

wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
If you can get some gear switch for pvp it would help. Keep a 2/20 circlet stashed and use the guillaumes for pvm.

What you are really missing out on is fcr with that character. 65+ fcr is kinda staple on pvp assassins. It will help you teleport out of the way faster, it will help you spam mindblast faster, which will make for faster completion of stunlocks and faster telestomping.

You should also get in the habbit of learning to telestomp with dtalon instead of using flight. Flight is very slow, its cast speed can not be increased, and its fairly easy to avoid, although it can catch less skilled players without much effort since you dont have to namelock with it. Personally I think maxed flight is a bad idea for pvp kicksins because it causes shadow masters to go suicide on hammerdins and other casters when you want the shadow to instead stick with you as you tele and do nothing except spam mindblast.
Flight is a useful tactical skill to have but you should teleport -> talon instead of using flight whenever you can.

I hope the 20 fade is just for uber trist, cause faded fleshripper kicksin doesn't meet the 7/3 kick bp, which is a problem for pvp, not to mention you want to be able to r/w fast on a pvp w/s kicksin, bos helps this and solves kick/trap bp problems.


For those duels that are giving you trouble, hammerdins and smiters are some of the most difficult opponents for kicksins. It's a class disadvantage and unfortunatly they are very popular characters so you will run into them a lot. You will also get a lot of bad players saying "brb noob" when you pk their sorc and they'll likely bring one of those two.

Well.. this is what you do: play defensive with widowmaker.
It takes a while but its how you can pk pallies.
here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rch5Al6O87s
(video taken on d2pk, not bnet, my experience on bnet was most smiters had worse resists and hp, so my stategy would be the same but they will die in much fewer arrows than the smiter in the video, although high-end smiters can take longer)

Do not kick smiters ever. Just stay back and spam guided. Swap to fleshripper/ss after a few bursts do not stay bowside. If arrows hit while you are on fleshripper your 75% ow transfers to guided. Also the block/dr is nice vs desync charge but you should try to stay clear of them altogether.
Vs most common players there is an easy way to defeat smiters, thats to use death's web. In my experience on bnet, death's web will pk most pub smiters in a few guided arrows. Shoot shoot swap. Yes the -50 poison resist transfers to guided, yes most public smiters skimp on poison resists.

In a number of ways smiters are easier than hammerdins because they are very predictable. Hammerdins you meet in pubs really vary a lot though. The high end pro pvp players using hammerdins are *the* most difficult matchup for kicksins (other than well played wwsins, which is the hardest matchup for a pure kicksin) on the other hand though, most pub hammers aren't that difficult. In fact most are very easy after you get the basics down.

For dueling the good hammerdins, same rules as dueling smiters apply - play very defensive, pick away hp with widow, swap for ow%
For dueling the medeocre hammerdins, keep them mid range, around ~1-2 screens. Keep shooting guided to provoke them into coming after you, play defensive with traps and attempt to get them stunned, hit them with widow as they try to get out of or avoid your stun. Only kick if they play too overoffensive and you can blindspot them.
For dueling the pubadins/mfdins that let themselves get stunlocked, tele into their blindspot once you have them stunned and kick up. This kills them very fast. Practice vs bad hammerdin players (no shortage of these on bnet) because it is very difficult to impossible to do against a pro pvp player desyncing around.
(hrm, some vids would probably help with these strategies but I dont have any kick vs hammer vids uploaded at the moment =\, hope you can figure out how to blindspot with your own practice)

Oh yeah and same as smiters, most pub mfdins dont have high poison resists, death's web really takes them out fast with kick/bow.


Ive been playing kicksins in pvp since the start of 1.10 so take it from me.. it takes a lot of practice and very many deaths from tripping over hammers before you start learning how to avoid desync, see where desynced hammer fields really are, learn to tell a smiter's true location while he is charging around, and so on.
The most difficult matchups for kicksins are: wwsins, hammerdins, smiters, bvcs, auradins and trappers. Out of all of these, hammerdins and smiters are the most common threat in public games and something you'll be facing for as long as you play a kicksin. Learning to play as more of a bowsin than a kicker is the best way to handle those opponents for a pure kicksin build. Takes practice at first because every mistake vs hammer or smite can be an instant death but after you learn to evade their attacks, they aren't that difficult with widowmaker + defensive strategies.

Defensive play will eventually kill all hammerdins/smiters/griefdins as long as you can avoid their desync, at least in a gm duel. If the pally towns or juves just.. play around with them. I find it makes these types of players very mad when they keep juving. There isnt anything you can do to actually kill smiters/hammerdins bm though. Damage over time does nothing vs juvs. That is why players play hammerdins in bm. You can still "win" by just annoying the smiters. I got the "omg run more noob u ez" *smiter has left game* quite a lot back on bnet after dueling the juv users in pub games.

If these types of duels bore you, just find a gm game. Bowsin can win vs smiter or hammerdin in gm, just takes practice. These are the difficult matchups for a kicksin build. So yeah.. practice helps.
build wise get some fcr, teleporting out of the way helps. So does being able to mindblast fast when dueling hammerdins.

I recommend you stash some pvp gear, your pvm setup really hinders your pvp ability at the moment.
 

TigerPrawn

Diabloii.Net Member
Ty for the in-depth reply Wiz. I maxed D flight because I'm a huge fan of the skill (although most would disagree) and the amount of AR after maxing is nice. I've been able to catch people off guard with it and doing a good amount of dmg with the surprise attack. I'm still learning to tele and dtalon, so that will come with time. As for fast cast... I only have 20% from trang's I think. I'll need alot more eh?

Also, fade is just for ubers and against a few sorcs where I can take hits, Dflight, then GA them without getting 1 shotted. For most other classes, I use BoS which is above lvl 9 so I hit the 7/3 correct? I do pretty good dmg so far and I credit my high AR for some nice fights that woulda turned the other way if I had not made the last hit count.

Thanks again for the input and advice.
 

wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
65+ is recommended for any pvp assassin.
Just helps a lot with stunlocking players, if your mindblast is slow its easier for them to escape before your traps even start attacking. Also mobility is the key to any pvp assassin, if you can't tele out of the way of something fast enough, it will kill you. Slow cast rates just wont do. Not in pvp.


btw idk if this will help but, here is a kvk match, a variety of tactics used which can be applied to dueling on a kicksin in general kick vs all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T0Hx7votAg
as you see fcr/mobility plays a large role in how a kicksin duels.

note flight was used only once, little story actually: my first pvp kicksin build in 1.10 was with maxed flight. I found the more I pvp'd on kicksin the less I used flight. I rarely use it now.
 

wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
Depends on your budget.

08 valk is one solution. If you use a circlet setup to reach 65fcr then get more shadow/fhr gcs.

btw if you are working on a smaller budget (all pvp chars get expensive at the highend of things) you should consider a griffons over a plain 2/20 circlet. Unless you have an impressive circlet griffons just works better to reach 65fcr.

consider the following setup for pvp:
shael'd griffons/cats eye/arach/trangs/dancers/2x raven

a little low on the resists but a very good way to reach the bps.
consider using more resist charms, 9x gcs is overrated. (personally I use 7x gc with the extra room being 5/5frw scs)
Also consider stashing an Um'd wizardspike. (102 cast setup with less ow%)

Really the more you want to specialize your kicksin for pvp, the more it will need pvp setups. This could mean anything from putting the bare minimum of a 65+fcr setup in your stash to rebuilding for pvp which as I take it is not what you are looking for at the moment.

Among other things you should stash is a cta. Seriously it helps out a lot. You dont need widow for every matchup so there will be games you are better off with a cta switch. If buffing deters you from getting a cta then consider losing 2x gcs to carry cta in your inventory. -2 shadow disc, +way more hp than those 2 lifers are giving you.
Then again you are using a pvm build so you dont use full inventory for charms or do you? capping out what you can get out of your inventory space is really key for beefing up any build for pvp.

Really there are too many problems when you mix pvm and pvp builds. It'll always be an uphill battle for you in pvp if you play a pvm build but.. if you want to improve it for pvp really do get a 65+ fcr setup for it, thats just basic necessity in pvp.
 

nex

Diabloii.Net Member
Wow kicksin vs pally tactics essay. o_O
Yeah. And another of your posts to save. You should compile all that knowledge and post kicker guide, it would be easier to stalk one thread instead of searching all your posts every time :grin:



 

TigerPrawn

Diabloii.Net Member
Little update!

Went ahead and traded some stuff to reach 65% FCR.

New setup:

Helm: +2 skills, 20 FCR, +~20% LR, minor mana (No socket, I'm thinking ber or shael?)
Armor: Enigma
Shield: Stormshield (Pdiamond)
Gloves: Trangs
Boots: Shadow dancers
Rings: Ravenfrost/10%FCR, +2 high res, +life
Belt: Arachnids

So now I hit the 65% FCR BP, using my BoS I do believe I hit 7/3 kicks (over lvl 9)

Now I need to hit 86% FHR and I think I'll be able to do decently in PVP. I was able to move around and be more effective with 65% FCR, but I need to learn to telestomp.

In regards to telestomping, do you namelock tele, then center your mouse to Dtalon?

Thanks again for the help.
 

Sechler

Diabloii.Net Member
Something I’ve been doing recently is keeping cube on me in pubs so I can keep bow on me and not worry about not having enough life vs. multiple opponents. I keep my CTA, couple tp’s, and fury runic(or chaos) in the cube, and then have my dweb equipped. I position the cube so that I only lose one shadow lifer and 1 life/res sc, but it is so much more convenient.

Regarding your socket in circ... if you decide to run a widow on switch, you're gonna want to have an ias/xx jewel in the hat. I wanna say with your BoS in the teens from gear you’ll need an additional 8 or 9 ias to hit the next bp on guided arrows which is worth it.
 

chileno

Banned
Little update!

Went ahead and traded some stuff to reach 65% FCR.

New setup:

Helm: +2 skills, 20 FCR, +~20% LR, minor mana (No socket, I'm thinking ber or shael?)
Armor: Enigma
Shield: Stormshield (Pdiamond)
Gloves: Trangs
Boots: Shadow dancers
Rings: Ravenfrost/10%FCR, +2 high res, +life
Belt: Arachnids

So now I hit the 65% FCR BP, using my BoS I do believe I hit 7/3 kicks (over lvl 9)

Now I need to hit 86% FHR and I think I'll be able to do decently in PVP. I was able to move around and be more effective with 65% FCR, but I need to learn to telestomp.

In regards to telestomping, do you namelock tele, then center your mouse to Dtalon?

Thanks again for the help.
Here's a video of WizAdept showing how to namelock with dtalon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T0Hx7votAg



 

Rancors

Banned
How exactly will Lacerator help kicker? With or without Amp physical dmg that kickers do is pathetic.
the only thing that lacerator will lose to fleshripper is the ow part, and it has 33%ow which is not hard to trigger with dtalon. in term of speed lacerator is faster. the cb on flesh is hardly anything in pvp, i guess the -50 target def is useful when facing melee but tbh kickers cant really beat any decent barb/pally so no point to have that mod. if u want slow doom is better.

having amp is like having ds on ur kick, well actually alot better than ds since it's -100 physical resistance. (or -50% against ppl with dr)



 
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TigerPrawn

Diabloii.Net Member
I thought that kick max speed was 7/3. If im not mistaken, I hit that with lvl 16 bos. I really like Fleshripper with um for 75% ow. Also DS doesn't apply to kicks from what I understand.

I've beaten a few pallies/barbs... moreso on the barbs as I play like Wiz suggested. Mana is an issue, but i guess pots can solve that.
 

Rancors

Banned
I thought that kick max speed was 7/3. If im not mistaken, I hit that with lvl 16 bos. I really like Fleshripper with um for 75% ow. Also DS doesn't apply to kicks from what I understand.

I've beaten a few pallies/barbs... moreso on the barbs as I play like Wiz suggested. Mana is an issue, but i guess pots can solve that.
no, ds doesnt work on kick, but amp will. (or 50% more physical dmg against real pvpers)

ds doesnt work like amp; often alot of ppl are confused between the two. -100% phyiscal resistance is not the same as double the dmg.

kicker has slim chance against any decent bvc/smiter/ghost, since all u can do to those are running around spamming mb to wear them down. u certainly dont want to tele on top of them to kick cuz they will out tank u. kicking a ww barb is retarded. ur best chance is to hit and run and let the ow/venom do the work but u cant really outrun a 63fcr bvc.

my suggestion is to use flesh as main if u want the ow and doom swap on switch while running. it helps tremendously and prevent them try to dysench. btw, in kick vs kick, doom > fleshripper.

imo, doom is a mess up runeword, since all melee attacks are affected by hf expect whirlwind. (just the movement speed, and make ww stay longer) thats why u see alot of ww barbs abuse it if they tend to be bm during duel. slowing down movement/attack speed by 50% make most melee chars quit. trust me, if u slap on doom against a smiter, he probably wont duel u. and dont even say other melees who dont use enigma, they cant even catch u.



 
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wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
I posted a bunch of my opinions on pvp kicksin weapons not too long ago in this thread:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=600823


Lace is alright, I sometimes use it in team duels when I want to amp for a druid or bowzon teammate but 1v1 or dueling solo vs all I have always found fleshripper to be better than lace. 75% ow > 33% ow
20% slow is a very powerful and overlooked mod as well
The amp really doesn't help kicks much, I'd rather have consistancy in applying open wounds when I hit and run.

Doom is decent but I still like fleshripper more. Nothing bm about lace or doom imo, they really aren't that great weapons, not bad but not great.

And yes 7/3 kicks is max speed so lace isn't any faster than fleshripper if you already reach the bp.


@ TigerPrawn: your setup looks more pvp now, the sky is the limit with pvp setups, but for a pvm kicksin switched to pvp gear you are on the right path with what youve changed. Now comes the hard part, learning the gameplay tactics :p
have fun.

In regards to telestomping, do you namelock tele, then center your mouse to Dtalon?
yup yup
center your mouse before or as you tele actually, that way as soon as your tele casts you can renamelock by just clicking center screen. You can namelock before the end part of the teleport animation finishes (after the actual cast frame where you tele, before the total cast animation is complete) so you can get a lock on someone right away before they can tele off you.
http://media.putfile.com/First-d2pk-fraps-victim-
 

wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
kicker has slim chance against any decent bvc/smiter/ghost, since all u can do to those are running around spamming mb to wear them down. u certainly dont want to tele on top of them to kick cuz they will out tank u. kicking a ww barb is retarded. ur best chance is to hit and run and let the ow/venom do the work but u cant really outrun a 63fcr bvc.

my suggestion is to use flesh as main if u want the ow and doom swap on switch while running. it helps tremendously and prevent them try to dysench. btw, in kick vs kick, doom > fleshripper.
widowmaker switch is a good counter vs bvc

err it seems putfile decided to delete most of my old kick vs barb vids I had back on east nl.. well this one is still up, not the best duel but an example of how to take down a bvc that would normally destroy a pure kicksin:
http://media.putfile.com/trev-avb-01

Doom is alright but honestly I still found fleshripper to be more powerful for just about every matchup except duels where kicksins already have a natural advantage, like vs zons.
Kick vs kick doom is lame. On a novice level of kvk where both kicksins try to tank each other, doom of course gives an advantage cause it will screw up the other player's kick speed. When there is more hit and run and corner namelocking involved (which is outside the range of doom's aura) higher ow% does better in my experience, for the hit and run. I havent had trouble with doom wielding kicksins while using fleshripper myself in kvk.

Doom is still a pretty powerful weapon in kvk. However I stopped carrying mine though cause I didn't have trouble fleshie vs doom in kvk and I found fleshripper to be better than doom for vs all.



 
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