Guest Article: Infinity Mode

Indemaijinj

Diabloii.Net Member
Cloud_Walker said:
There is a huge flaw with the Infinity Mode difficulty increasing realm-wide idea.

Don't forget eBay and other Diablo II online stores exist. Take me, for example, and some average "pkx/x" game player. Pk player with his store bought BotD and CtA and CoH sit down for a couple days and completes Infinity Mode, making it one bit harder for everyone on the realm, including myself. What does this do for me, someone who wears only what he finds? It makes the nearly impossible task of completing or even attempting Infinity Mode HARDER. Multiply this situation by a hundred and you have the state of the realms after a week. And after trying Infinity Mode just once, and getting killed instantly after stepping into Blood Moor because by then every fallen will be sextuple immune with level 99 Holy Shock and melee weapons with full screen length range, 90% of Battle.net will think it was all a huge waste of a difficulty. Crushed will be dreams of maybe someday finding or trading for good enough equipment to take a shot at attaining that highly sought "God" title.

Not to mention another would-be cause of this downturn: hacked items. Hacked items will inevitably be introduced on the realms, and when they are, this gives those players that have them a chance to get past another Infinity Mode or two. Then let's say Blizzard implements or continues Rust Storm. All hacked items go bye-bye, leaving NOBODY capable of beating Infinity Mode at its current difficulty.

Simple solution to all of this: make increasing difficulty of Infinity Mode player specific. How to tell when someone has completed it multiple times? Well, I think that after you complete Infinity Mode the first time, you should be instantly level 99, given all stat and skill points, however, you have to be level 95 or so to enter to begin with. After completing infinity mode the second time, you attain level 100. A third time, level 101, and so on...

I think you found the biggest flaw in the system there. The difficulty cannot increase forever. There is a very real "ceiling" that no-one can overcome.

That ceiling is the sextuple unbreakable immunity! Some of the immunities might become commonly unbreakable before.


It would probably go like this (I assume that people play in parties with multiple means of damage so if one character becomes powerless for a while the other might help out):

Unbreakable Fire, Lightning and Poison immunity is very common. Dual unbreakables happen ever so often. Triples are nasty, but they usually have an Achilles heel. Annoyances, but the well-rounded party prospers.

Unbreakable dual immunities are the rule rather than the exception. Physical immunities are VERY common. Everybody loves magic damage. A lot of groups are forced to ditch certain monsters. People still trudge on.

Non-physical immunes just doesn't exist anymore. Everybody loves Amp and Conviction. Leeching (mana and health that is) has become a dinosaur of the past. Sorceresses mewl pathetically as hordes of fire/lightning/cold unbreakables come barreling down on them. Meleers are mostly PMH/Open Wounds item builds.

Screenfuls of magic-immunes become common sights. Physical unbreakables are very common. Sorceresses are only good for the Enchant AR boost and occasionally as specialised tanks. Every single undead is poison unbreakable (and usually unbreakable nearly everything else). Clerics have a field day as specialist troubleshooters. Bonemancers find their job opportunities severely limited. You hear ever so often about that nasty sextuple unbreakable.

Sextuple unbreakables happen ever so often. Mostly they are random bosses and can be ditched, but they happen with unerring frequency among Baal's minions. The throne of destruction are usually handled by special task teams composed entirely by Maldar the Magnificent impersonators.

Sextuple unbreakables are now common and Diablo and Baal is close to join their ranks. There is only one viable build left: The Hammerdin! Infinity mode is now more or less dead.
 

Wuhan_Clan

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree that with anyone who thinks that the logistics of implementing such an "Infinity Mode" would be a daunting problem. It's simply beyond what the current structure of D2 is capable of.

However, the idea itself isn't bad. A lot of criticism is keying in on the details of Infinity Mode, rather then then its concept. Of course, the author isn't going to be able balance out the specifics of the new mode.

Lets say infinity lvl monster HP increased by 1% every time someone beat Infinity Mode. This may prove to be either too much or not enough of an increase in difficulty.
We also don't need to set a universal increase in difficulty. The idea has already been suggested that the difficulty of infinity mode may be dependent on how many times the character has beat it, and not how many people on the realm have beat it.

As far as the previous post is concerned, I don't see how you came up with "sextuple immunities". As far as I know, there can only be 6 types of damage in the game: Physical, Magic, Fire, Cold, Lightning, Poison. I don't see how a hammerdin could break through that considering his hammers are magic.

Also, using your logic of building up on the immunities, there shouldn't be a reason why Hammerdins should be the only "viable build". By your own logic, your immunity structures break away from conventional D2 immunities. If you were to make your idea work, you would put more magic immunes into the game if you thought that hammerdins were overpowered. If all carver types became immune to magic and physcial, you're typical hammerdin is screwed. Also, undead units immune to magic would be immune to blessed hammer. That alone will make the hammerdin build look less attractive. The main idea would be to mix the immunities. This actually already exists in 1.10 except we need the combinations to be more balanced.
Of course you eventually reach a ceiling but that limit does not have to be caused by sextuple immunities. That essentially means those monsters are immune to everything. As difficulty increases, we begin to see more and more quintuple immunes (immune to 5 types of dmg). But there would be 6 different kinds of quintuple immunes. In the so-called ceiling levels of infinity mode, we would mix all 6 types of quintuple immunes together. Change the game so that all monsters can spawn anywhere so you could get quill rats, oblivion knights, and undead stygian dolls in Act1. Infinity mode would take maximum advantage of being able to spawn different combinations of monsters.

At this point, there would be 2 possibilites. You could simply set a ceiling level where by if you complete, lets say, infinity mode for the 10th time, you finally win and get a cool new title. No one said that it had to go one forever. However, a real infinity mode would increase monster HP and dmg indefefintely. It wouldn't be impossible since the most capable parties of players with enough patience, can still progress, however slowly progress becomes. This is the ultimate goal of infinity mode: to reach a level of difficulty where no one in their right mind would spend time trying to beat. It would be a bit like expanding clvls to lvl200. Using the current exp system, it would be possible to reach lvl200 given enough time, but who would really want to waste a lifetime getting there?


The largest drawback of this idea is that it will be abused by hackers or people who used their hacked items. But this has already been addressed and the problem wouldn't be any different in Infinity Mode then it is now.
 

Daemonaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Indemaijinj said:
Wuhan, you forget that Blessed Hammers and Holy Bolts pierce immunities.
They only break the immunities of Demons and Undead. Which is about 90% of the game though.
 

Daemonaz

Diabloii.Net Member
nebby said:
This was quite possibly the most stupid article I have read on this website. The most stupid overall goes of course to one on cnn.com, but thats another story.

Saying that people want a challenge for their uber-character completely misinterprets the psychology of uber-character creation in the first place. The reason these people play meteorb sorcs, or hammerdins, or winddruids is precisely to make a character that is essentially godlike in their little world. These same people made WW barbs, buriza-zons, javazons, and nova sorcs before that, and before that they made WW barbs and bone-farming necros.

Those who want challenge long ago gave up these cookie cutter builds, and have become more creative. That, or they become PKers. I'm not talking about softcore here either, since no one who really wants a challenge would play a character with infinite life. Everyone who doesn't fall into those categories, but still longed for a greater challenge, gave up D2X about a year ago, and infinity mode is not going to lure them back.
Let us all bow down to the master of D2. You are pretty full of yourself aren't you? In your opinion everyone who plays a Hammerdin is the stereotypical cookiecutter build player that can't play anything else. Well buddy I got news for you, there's many players who play besides cookiecutter builds also more experimental builds. The reason these people use a hammerdin or meteorb cahracter is to MF. You know the concept right? They do this so they can equip their experimental builds with the items that suit them. You still following me? Or are you so far above us all, that you already have labeled this post stupid too?

Now to the point. Ai_Guy has a very valid point. Many of us diehard players, that have been around since day 1 of diablo 2, or even longer, since day 1 of Diablo 1 in my case for instance, would like to see this game a whole lot more challenging. That one extra mode, that would only be for a challenge, not for MFing, not for XPing, would be there to test us. 1.10 was said to be too difficult, well I totalyl disagree, I still think it's too easy. I'm not talking about Hammerdins because they are grossly overpowered, but I made a Poison Nova necro for instance and he solos hell too. As far as I see it, the only thing that 1.10 has done, is made many melee builds obsolete or very item dependent. But then again Blizzard has NEVER been able to balance D2, so why would we have expected that they'd be able to do it with 1.10

And about the infinity mode: You don't have to play your experimental builds there, but then again if you are a real good player, like you say you are, you probably could take your Summoning Druid in there and defeat it and that all on hardcore.
 

tl998

Banned
1.10 is only easy for those with good items. those of us who don't spend 5 hours mfing everyday still find it hard.
 

Wuhan_Clan

Diabloii.Net Member
tl998 said:
1.10 is only easy for those with good items. those of us who don't spend 5 hours mfing everyday still find it hard.
I believe its already been agreed in this and many other threads that only the melee builds have trouble without good items.

There is nothing wrong with finding 1.10 hard. There is also nothing wrong with finding 1.10 easy. However, the argument I made in the last "1.10 is too hard" thread was that many players expect to be able to beat the game easily. For the same reason that everyone won't be able to beat Infinity Mode, not everyone will be able to beat Hell Mode.

The question of Infinity Mode is not if people can beat it or not, its a matter of providing an option of ever increasing difficulty.
 

Ai_Guy

Diabloii.Net Member
Daemonaz said:
They only break the immunities of Demons and Undead. Which is about 90% of the game though.
who says they still have to be able to do that in infinity mode?

This article was just about the idea of an ever-increasing difficulty level, purely for difficulty, not for item finding or experience. I haven't even thought of how to balance this thing, it seems multiple immunities would definately be key. Obviously it would take lots of resources to do, and there are lots of other things one could do with that time/effort.

This doesn't even have to be Diablo-centric. The idea can apply to just about any game.
 

Daemonaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Ai_Guy said:
who says they still have to be able to do that in infinity mode?

This article was just about the idea of an ever-increasing difficulty level, purely for difficulty, not for item finding or experience. I haven't even thought of how to balance this thing, it seems multiple immunities would definately be key. Obviously it would take lots of resources to do, and there are lots of other things one could do with that time/effort.

This doesn't even have to be Diablo-centric. The idea can apply to just about any game.
I never implied that.. i just corrected someone. Ai_Guy I liked your idea for that matter.
 

Ai_Guy

Diabloii.Net Member
Daemonaz said:
I never implied that.. i just corrected someone. Ai_Guy I liked your idea for that matter.
sorry, that wasn't meant to be directed at you... just at the idea of hammers breaking immunities. Just trying to say that it dosen't really matter since they can change skills by difficulty level anyway(ie static field)
 

Metroid_01

Diabloii.Net Member
I have not read every single previous post so forgive me if i repeat something. Ai your idea is great, but its pretty flawed. to start out immunities must be locked at 1 per monster excluding uniques which are at two. triple immunities make sorceresses, druids....and any caster for that matter completely useless. what i do think should be done though about immunities is, they should be more random, and even the amazing hammerdin must be affected by these. even now in .10, you can go thru act1 with a lightning user with little problem...imagine going into the blood moor with ur...lets say....trapsin and you see a pack of fallen. so you use your amazing traps on them but two of the five are immune, backup is neccisary. i too believe areas should be enlarged, but NOT DUNGEONS!!! they are too much a pain, and confined to get any bigger. areas like in acts 1 and 4 that are very open need to become larger...and possibly more areas especially in act4. i like the idea of getting more powerful every time you beat it, but as said earlier with the God1, God2, ect... idea that would work well. your argument that lower chars would have problems is simple to solve...make it integrated and have it be on the difficulty of the creator, but when beaten you advance one level unless you have allready beaten that one. also with each increase i believe resistance drops MUST stop otherwise monsters like souls will eat you apart no matter what. but monsters should get like 5% more hp, exp and at that point have as high a TC as possible but still not be any more mfable than in hell. while im on drops how bout we dont get any normal items when in this infinite difficulty...i mean who on earth wants to get the sturdy leather armor of thorns when ur battling Oblivion knights with 4k hp doing 200 damage?! bosses should have those nice increased mf drops the first time but afterward like blizz originally planned with meph, having little or no Magic find working to keep out the mfers. oh yes, auto lvl reqs :lol: . first of all you should be no less than lvl 90 or so maybe less because of the incredible difficulty of lvling, at even entering this difficulty, and there should be a auto lvl req of around 5 no matter what. i like the idea of surpassing lvl 99, but only as you make it through the difficulty more and more. for instance the first time you lvl from 90-93, second 93-96, third 96-98, and so on with diminishing returns. (this assumes you actually quest through and dont run around.) hmm, i cant remember anything else to mention...but great idea AI!


:drool: <----lol
 

singingblade

Diabloii.Net Member
AI i love your idea, a higher difficulty level just for the challenge of it would be cool; right now the only real challenge in the game is doing the ancients hell on your own i a 8 player game, and that also doesnt give a reward, but i still like doing it.
Ofcourse your idea can be improved, but the basic thought is good; but the most important point for this infinity mode should be the "no-reward part".

As soon as players will get serieus awards for completing infinity lvl they would start abusing it, and kiddy's with bought-on-ebay characters will ruin it for everyone. Just a challenge would be enough to encourage the serieus players of going there, and if you dont like it or you play untwinked (which i think is the best way to play), just stay away, since you dont have to finish this lvl.
 

Quelex-X

Diabloii.Net Member
Jesus...

Infinity mode is a great idea, but it shouldnt get stronger when somebody beats it. As Cloud_Walker pointed out E-bayers and other online shoppers (Which is really fricken dumb, not only should you get IP banned for buying property that belongs to blizzard, but you're ruining everyone elses fun.) would completely ruin it. Also If only super godly character builds could compete, at one time they'll run into some monster that immunes their best attacks, even if you're doing all 6 types of damages, then what's the point in playing something that's impossible to win.
I really like 1.10 because all the characters are able to go pvm, even if some characters (Sorceress) can kill everyone who goes near them in pvp. Since 1.10 I've made great characters, it's not as hard as everyone makes it out to be because I haven't played that much before to notice AI and Hp differences. But if people could take their character out to a mode where it is really really hard, but not only possible to the truly godly people, it'd be great. Too bad that balance will never come, and nor will infinity mode. Even "only one viable build left: The Hammerdin!" wouldn't work due to the fact that they can easily be shot down by a quill rat and killed in the blood moor if it's that hard.
 

Metroid_01

Diabloii.Net Member
Thats why i said it MUST cap at an absolute max of 2 immunities on regular monsters and 3 on uniques...this includes magic, fire, lightning, cold, psn, and physical. i think i allready pointed htis out....been to long, but the whole world should be like act5 the difference i propose is you can only meet monsters you have allready seen (ie no a3 monsters in act1, but u can meet monsters from the cold plains in the dark wood. ) and these monsters have completely random immunities, (i think though, it should be similar to how things like extra strong work for bosses in that all monsters in a certain radius of a certain type have the same immunity..in other words if you meet a group of mixed fallen and zombies the fallen become lets say cold immune, all of them within a screen or so radius and the zombies get physical.
i love the idea of having it get harder and harder, just for you...but it would be terribly hard to work things out (difficulties would be spread too thin by way of people that can actually play in them) maybe a "radius" type deal in which you can join all below ur difficulty, like you can now but only see and join those 1 difficulty above and 1 below yours (not including hell).

wow Quelex-x you revived a damn old post. sniff, tthis was the first post i ever made on these forums...ah the memories :hanky:
lol and :drool: is still damn funny to me. :D
 

Meosha

Diabloii.Net Member
Indemaijinj said:
I think you found the biggest flaw in the system there. The difficulty cannot increase forever. There is a very real "ceiling" that no-one can overcome.

That ceiling is the sextuple unbreakable immunity! Some of the immunities might become commonly unbreakable before.


It would probably go like this (I assume that people play in parties with multiple means of damage so if one character becomes powerless for a while the other might help out):

Unbreakable Fire, Lightning and Poison immunity is very common. Dual unbreakables happen ever so often. Triples are nasty, but they usually have an Achilles heel. Annoyances, but the well-rounded party prospers.

Unbreakable dual immunities are the rule rather than the exception. Physical immunities are VERY common. Everybody loves magic damage. A lot of groups are forced to ditch certain monsters. People still trudge on.

Non-physical immunes just doesn't exist anymore. Everybody loves Amp and Conviction. Leeching (mana and health that is) has become a dinosaur of the past. Sorceresses mewl pathetically as hordes of fire/lightning/cold unbreakables come barreling down on them. Meleers are mostly PMH/Open Wounds item builds.

Screenfuls of magic-immunes become common sights. Physical unbreakables are very common. Sorceresses are only good for the Enchant AR boost and occasionally as specialised tanks. Every single undead is poison unbreakable (and usually unbreakable nearly everything else). Clerics have a field day as specialist troubleshooters. Bonemancers find their job opportunities severely limited. You hear ever so often about that nasty sextuple unbreakable.

Sextuple unbreakables happen ever so often. Mostly they are random bosses and can be ditched, but they happen with unerring frequency among Baal's minions. The throne of destruction are usually handled by special task teams composed entirely by Maldar the Magnificent impersonators.

Sextuple unbreakables are now common and Diablo and Baal is close to join their ranks. There is only one viable build left: The Hammerdin! Infinity mode is now more or less dead.
Heh. Loved the bit about Maldar.

In reality, due to the number of dupers, hackers, botters, and other people who don't have enough to do besides mess with webgames, this transition would take less than one week.
 
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