Gloves for a Barb (PvM)

[Mac182]

Gloves for a Barb (PvM)

Hi, i'm about to make a ww ebotd (BA) barb for pvm.

My question is what gloves would be the best for pvm?

Does life-trap cast on draculs? I'm not sure about this and the only other barb I have atm is a frenzy barb (which I know it does). The only pair of gloves I don't own is steelrends, so all other pairs of gloves are attainable. Also is soul drainers a better option than draculs (I have a 7/7 pair).

I'm sorry if this question has been answered before but the search function did not bring back any results with a suitable answer it in.

Thanks!
Mac182

 

[[exile]]

Life Tap does NOT trigger with WW. (Nor does anything with the "chance to cast" mod.)

I use Soul Drainer on my Barb, simply so I don't need a dual leech ring. Rends can be fun but I personally hate them.

 

[sketch]

The best choice ever for almost any barb, is a good pair of dracs these will come in handy in tight situations. First of all a pair of 15 str dracs will save you 60 life before bo, give you a solid amount of ow and the skill which grants you alot better chance of surviving, the famous LT. I have used these on every barb I have made, except my singer, for obvious reasons

If you plan to make a Dwhirler, the its the best choice, especially with 1 pt in frenzy, cause this skill will really help you against monsters with manaburn.

- sketch

 

[[exile]]

Life Tap does not trigger with Whirlwind, and thus does not help a Whirler's survival.

Life Tap also does not help with Mana Leech, so I don't see how it helps you deal with Mana Burners... wouldn't you still run out of mana just as fast whether you WWed or Frenzied? Unless they're Phys Immune, that's a different story...

 

[Taz]

No1 choice - steelrends
No2 - crafted blood gloves with 10%cb

 

[rikstaker]

As a ww barb one should avoid using a ring slot for a mana leech.You need either a highlords/raven/bk or angelics/bk setup for ar.

Since botd has dual leech,so steelrends look really attractive for the ed & cb.But if you are wielding a non botd weapon,you are going to need ml so soul drainers is the easy way out.

Razgriz

 

[Vajar]

As a ww barb one should avoid using a ring slot for a mana leech.You need either a highlords/raven/bk or angelics/bk setup for ar.

Since botd has dual leech,so steelrends look really attractive for the ed & cb.But if you are wielding a non botd weapon,you are going to need ml so soul drainers is the easy way out.

Razgriz

Thats really poor advice for PvM. Angelics aren't a good option for PvM, so you're basically comparing a BK ring to Steelrends. In PvM, Steelrends will always win.

BK Ring
+1 skill
45 life (not increasable by BO)

Steelrends (average)
50% ED
10% CB
+15 Str (or 60 life, increasable by BO)

The choice should be obvious. But if that isn't enough, Soul Drainers can't even come close to a dual leech ring - you can't get +min dmg, +AR, or resists on Soul Drainers, but you can on a dual leech ring.

I'd understand if this was PvP, because being able to use angelics can really give a nice boost to AR, but for PvM, where obscene amounts of AR aren't a staple, the obvious choice for gloves are Steelrends.

 

[combatman]

steelrend:the higher % teh better
laying of hand: bramblemits:350ed to demons

Draculs are awesome for pvp but ow wont help u much in pvm
soul drainer ,well good but the above are better
last opton are some good stats /resists rare or crafted maybe 1.08 gloves

 

[beerjackal]

Ik gloves are better that low steelrends for dmg wise cause of the str and the dex adds more for ar. as for the talk about rings go duel angelics you will get enough ll and ml from botd

 

[rikstaker]

Thats really poor advice for PvM. Angelics aren't a good option for PvM, so you're basically comparing a BK ring to Steelrends. In PvM, Steelrends will always win.

BK Ring
+1 skill
45 life (not increasable by BO)

Steelrends (average)
50% ED
10% CB
+15 Str (or 60 life, increasable by BO)

The choice should be obvious. But if that isn't enough, Soul Drainers can't even come close to a dual leech ring - you can't get +min dmg, +AR, or resists on Soul Drainers, but you can on a dual leech ring.

I'd understand if this was PvP, because being able to use angelics can really give a nice boost to AR, but for PvM, where obscene amounts of AR aren't a staple, the obvious choice for gloves are Steelrends.

before grading someone elses advice,perhaps you should try & understand the possibilities of pvm ww builds: Dualwield,2handers & weapon shield.

I said angelics/bk not dual angelics,infact thats a pretty good setup for base dexterity builds like polearmers or dualwielders.If you insist, I'll furnish calculations for you,btw the topic has been debated & there is very little that seperates wrath/raven/bk & angelics/bk in terms of dmg over time & the choice depends on outside factors like defense cut & itd weapons,which can allow you to neglect ar & therefore wear highlords.

& yeh,rare dual leech rings with decent stats are either dupes/arent easy to find, & ofcourse..some minor corrections in your advice as well: Avg steel ed is 45% & the strength requirement is 185,which means it is likely to be the last item you put on meaning -no chance of a vitality trade off..unless you use carapace which is far from the best choice for PVM,much better options out there with resists like coh & not to mention fort.

besides,if you read my post again,I said souls were the easy way out,caz I know its hard to get your hands on those rings,yes if you get a dual leech ring you dont need souls.

Razgriz

 

[Mr_Grimm]

i'd never use angelics for pvm...

 

[Mac182]

Thanks for advice ppl Didn't mean to start an argument tho

 

[Vajar]

before grading someone elses advice,perhaps you should try & understand the possibilities of pvm ww builds: Dualwield,2handers & weapon shield.

I said angelics/bk not dual angelics,infact thats a pretty good setup for base dexterity builds like polearmers or dualwielders.If you insist, I'll furnish calculations for you,btw the topic has been debated & there is very little that seperates wrath/raven/bk & angelics/bk in terms of dmg over time & the choice depends on outside factors like defense cut & itd weapons,which can allow you to neglect ar & therefore wear highlords.

& yeh,rare dual leech rings with decent stats are either dupes/arent easy to find, & ofcourse..some minor corrections in your advice as well: Avg steel ed is 45% & the strength requirement is 185,which means it is likely to be the last item you put on meaning -no chance of a vitality trade off..unless you use carapace which is far from the best choice for PVM,much better options out there with resists like coh & not to mention fort.

besides,if you read my post again,I said souls were the easy way out,caz I know its hard to get your hands on those rings,yes if you get a dual leech ring you dont need souls.

Razgriz

1) I'm well aware of the varieties of WW barbs, and my advice cuts across all boundaries.

2) For most cases, yes, no extra vitality (which was more of a bonus than a selling point). I'd still much rather take the bonuses of Steelrend than 1 skill point (which isn't as good on barbs as it is on other classes) and 45 life (measly when compared to 2000-3000 life). 1 skill gets you what? 12% ED, 15% AR, 3-4% resist all, 5% FRW, 20% defense, 25 life, 10 mana, so 65 FLAT life? Thats not worth 10% CB, 45% ED, 15 Str/ED% in my book.

3) He's asking for the best, not the easiest way out.

4) Dual leech rings aren't that hard to find, I've gambled dozens of them (5 of them with really nice stats - extras are a bonus, not a selling point).

5) I never said you suggested dual angelics.

6) There are much better options for raising AR than going the angelic route, for example, sharp GCs (which actually provide better damage than other charms from what I've seen). For times when you actually NEED to be hitting more accurately (bosses, lister, stoneskinners, etc.), you'll be using battle cry, which cuts the defense by 50%, which means AR is even less of an issue (because diminished returns play a larger role).

Plain and simple, sacrificing Steelrends for a BK ring is not worth it in PvM. Should be obvious and I'm surprised I had to argue this point. Extras on a dual leech ring are just icing on the cake (and will make Steelrends even more ideal in the 'best' setup).

 

[rikstaker]

1) I'm well aware of the varieties of WW barbs, and my advice cuts across all boundaries.

2) For most cases, yes, no extra vitality (which was more of a bonus than a selling point). I'd still much rather take the bonuses of Steelrend than 1 skill point (which isn't as good on barbs as it is on other classes) and 45 life (measly when compared to 2000-3000 life). 1 skill gets you what? 12% ED, 15% AR, 3-4% resist all, 5% FRW, 20% defense, 25 life, 10 mana, so 65 FLAT life? Thats not worth 10% CB, 45% ED, 15 Str/ED% in my book.

3) He's asking for the best, not the easiest way out.

4) Dual leech rings aren't that hard to find, I've gambled dozens of them (5 of them with really nice stats - extras are a bonus, not a selling point).

5) I never said you suggested dual angelics.

6) There are much better options for raising AR than going the angelic route, for example, sharp GCs (which actually provide better damage than other charms from what I've seen). For times when you actually NEED to be hitting more accurately (bosses, lister, stoneskinners, etc.), you'll be using battle cry, which cuts the defense by 50%, which means AR is even less of an issue (because diminished returns play a larger role).

Plain and simple, sacrificing Steelrends for a BK ring is not worth it in PvM. Should be obvious and I'm surprised I had to argue this point. Extras on a dual leech ring are just icing on the cake (and will make Steelrends even more ideal in the 'best' setup).

1 & 5)I doubt,you cant blatantly dismiss the importance of angelics or ar to be specific for pvm.This isnt 1.09.Ar should be around 7k to maintain a cth of around 80-85% in hell,which is required to kill effectively for non defense cut/itd weapons. Angelics lets you do that & the strain on inventory is much less,particularly for base dexterity builds like polearmers & dualwielders.To get your final ar to 7k without single angelics you need around 600 ar from charms alone & that too when using demon limb & with top end eq.A hefty requirement eh?

Another benefit of angelics: DTM,leech wont work on all monsters,damage to mana allows you to use ww on unleechables as well which now arent limited to act 2 alone,you dont need to switch to conc against them & with ww you can kill just as fast.Plus angelics gives you all the ar you need,inventory can be better utiliised for resist,life or dmg charms.

Reference; DTM tests & BOTD vs Cleaver thread which contains some arguments about wrath vs angelics further down.;if you have the time:

2)Firstly,it is you who has shifted focus from glove choice to a comparison of bk ring & steel gloves,pretty wierd.In my view,the choice of gloves & jewelry depends on the weapon.My recommendation -souls were for nonbotd weapons & incase you didnt notice I said steels all the way for botd(dual leech),& you dont need any more mana leech than what botd gives you,so bk ring is a better option than dual leech ring,how does that become steel vs bk?.My other advice:Angelics for non defense cut/itd weapons & wrath/raven/bk for them,how that led you to forge an argument against no one about steels vs bk is way beyond me.

3)Aye! Steels are the best choice for botd weapons,souls is the easy way out for non botd,is that a ring in the bell to you,hmm.. how else should I say it so that it sinks in?

4)easy:

Soul Drainers can't even come close to a dual leech ring - you can't get +min dmg, +AR, or resists on Soul Drainers, but you can on a dual leech ring.).

Emphasis: can.Sure thing ...& yeh you dont quite get it,caz I did say

& yeh,rare dual leech rings with decent stats are either dupes/arent easy to find,.)

5)But it did appear so,since you are the first who made a comment like that on the suggestion of angelics for pvm.Poor advise?

6)Actually you need to hit accurately against everyone not just lister & bosses.I cant believe I have to stress this.You arent battlecrying everything that moves with ww,its time consuming for a moving attack.

Steel vs BK again? Who are you arguing with?

Razgriz

 

[Vajar]

1 & 5)I doubt,you cant blatantly dismiss the importance of angelics or ar to be specific for pvm.This isnt 1.09.Ar should be around 7k to maintain a cth of around 80-85% in hell

With 40 in dex, without demon limb, 6x sharp GCs (best option for all physical melee) raven frost and a ring with 125 AR, the chance to hit with angelics is around 5% more than without. Given an average hit rate of 80-85% (with angelics), that means you're hitting around 6% more (85/50 and 80/75). Not enough to sacrifice 1.33% dmg (approx. Highlords), +1 Skill, and the benefits that Steelrends provides. When you add in a demon limb enchant, the difference is much less because of diminishing returns. The difference in raw ar is ~2500, from 5500 to 8000 which is quite attainable. At lower levels the difference is less since levels make a larger difference. At higher levels, the difference is still less significant since you should have a higher chance to hit because of the levels.

Another benefit of angelics: DTM,leech wont work on all monsters,damage to mana allows you to use ww on unleechables as well which now arent limited to act 2 alone

This is what mana potions are for, they drop all the time, enough to make up for unleechables (except maybe a two places in act 2, tombs and sewers). If you argue about mana burn monsters, DTM won't fix those problems.

Plus angelics gives you all the ar you need,inventory can be better utiliised for resist,life or dmg charms.

Considering good equipment, in PvM, inventory is best utilized for damage - resists are easy to obtain elsewhere.

DTM tests & BOTD vs Cleaver thread which contains some arguments about wrath vs angelics further down.;if you have the time

Nothing that interesting or impressive. Basically contains everything you've said here, but with a lot of statistics thrown in. Also kinda convinces me that this won't end anywhere, and you'll keep going for the last word (fanatic, I believe someone mentioned), so I'm not gonna continue the discussion beyond this post. I think we've said what we've needed to say.

2)Firstly,it is you who has shifted focus from glove choice to a comparison of bk ring & steel gloves,pretty wierd.In my view,the choice of gloves & jewelry depends on the weapon.My recommendation -souls were for nonbotd weapons & incase you didnt notice I said steels all the way for botd(dual leech),& you dont need any more mana leech than what botd gives you,so bk ring is a better option than dual leech ring,how does that become steel vs bk?.

Well, first of all, there are two arguments here. The angelics one is well overblown and I've stated my opinions on it above. The second one is what you are referring to. Of course, I shifted the focus of a comparison between BK ring and Steelrends. Thats where the attention should be focused. You're recommending souldrainers, highlords and bulkathos. I'm recommending steelrends, a dual leech ring and highlords. Dual leech ring = Souldrainers. Highlords = Highlords. So the only two items left to compare are Bul Kathos and Steelrends.

My other advice:Angelics for non defense cut/itd weapons & wrath/raven/bk for them,how that led you to forge an argument against no one about steels vs bk is way beyond me.

See above.

3)Aye! Steels are the best choice for botd weapons,souls is the easy way out for non botd,is that a ring in the bell to you,hmm.. how else should I say it so that it sinks in?

No need to attack here. Steelrends are the best choice beyond botd weapons, they're a better choice for a much larger swath of weapons. I'm just pointing out that he's not asking for an easy and cheap solution. He's asking for the best solution and I really don't believe that your suggestions give him that - they may be good suggestions, but certainly not the best (although angelics for PvM is a poor suggestion IMO, unless you're just looking for cheap/untwinked).

Emphasis: can.Sure thing ...& yeh you dont quite get it,caz I did say

I never said this was guaranteed. Like I said, its a bell and whistle of using a dual leech ring, its not the selling point. The selling point is freeing up the glove spot for Steelrends (and the benefits of it over BK).

But it did appear so,since you are the first who made a comment like that on the suggestion of angelics for pvm.

The first time the word 'dual angelics' appeared was when you said it. I said angelics is a bad choice for PvM, which was in reply to your suggestion of angelics + bkring. Since it was a reply to your suggestion, it was implied I meant a single angelic ring. Implications can be tricky things, so I'll let it slide.

6)Actually you need to hit accurately against everyone not just lister & bosses.I cant believe I have to stress this.You arent battlecrying everything that moves with ww,its time consuming for a moving attack.

Obviously. I never suggested using battlecry on everything that moves. Just monsters where it'd make a huge difference, angelics or not - monsters with large defense and multi-whirl battles such as Lister and Bosses.

Steel vs BK again? Who are you arguing with?

You.

You need either a highlords/raven/bk or angelics/bk setup for ar.

I'm arguing against your first suggestion. The second suggestion, I've argued plenty enough about in the first part of this post. Again, I've gone over this above.

Nuff said, the discussion is over, unless you have anything new to offer.

 

[Mr_Grimm]

i agree with vajar here. to put this a simpler way these are the two options

1) soul drainer + bk ring + raven
2) steelrends + dual leech ring + raven

and in this situation the steelrends version is the better option.

 

[rikstaker]

With 40 in dex, without demon limb, 6x sharp GCs (best option for all physical melee) raven frost and a ring with 125 AR, the chance to hit with angelics is around 5% more than without. Given an average hit rate of 80-85% (with angelics), that means you're hitting around 6% more (85/50 and 80/75). ....
When you add in a demon limb enchant, the difference is much less because of diminishing returns.

my Polearm wwinder:

With BK/raven & ~200 ar from charms my final ar is:
Without DL enchant: 4408
With DL enchant: 6390.

When swapping to angelics/bk with all else remaining the same .

Without DL enchant:7672
With DL enchant:11219

A difference of 3264 final ar without demonlimb & 4829 after dl.The diference in cth isnt 5% more,its more like 15 to 20% cth depending on the target.The difference isnt 'less' when you add demonlimb,its clearly greater & please explain 'diminishing returns' on ar calculations.

Not enough to sacrifice 1.33% dmg (approx. Highlords), +1 Skill, and the benefits that Steelrends provides.

I am not offering anything 'new',but I believe you should know:33% deadly from highlords doesnt mean 1.33% more damage(also..p.s: its not percentage its *1.33 or 33% even if its wrong). Critical is checked first & if it fails deadly is checked & they exlude each other when they are checked individually.
Final chance of double damage=CS + (DS/100)*(100-CS)
So with 22% critical,15% deadly from gores,highlords only offers a 26% more chance of double damage(*1.26) not the listed deadly of 33%.Instead of 33% or *1.33(22 cs,15 ds) the multiplier is 59% or *1.59.

This is what mana potions are for, they drop all the time, enough to make up for unleechables (except maybe a two places in act 2, tombs and sewers). If you argue about mana burn monsters, DTM won't fix those problems.

True,but dtm is a much better supplement to ml & it really is a matter of playstyle/strategy,I dont like carrying/drinking blues all the time,if there is a mod in the game that can help in tight spaces then why not?.When soloing,in larger games you need more whirls to finish off monsters,so you must drink quite frequently to be able to use ww on unleechables,most shift to conc but DTM is the fastest way around & it helps a lot in pits.

Considering good equipment, in PvM, inventory is best utilized for damage - resists are easy to obtain elsewhere.

Not for non shields users.Max resist are obtained with gear like arreats/coh/anni.Arreats is pretty much standard isue but coh & anni are pricy.Actually life from inventory is a good bet as well,Titans?

Nothing that interesting or impressive. Basically contains everything you've said here, but with a lot of statistics thrown in. Also kinda convinces me that this won't end anywhere, and you'll keep going for the last word (fanatic, I believe someone mentioned), so I'm not gonna continue the discussion beyond this post. I think we've said what we've needed to say.

I wasnt asking for an appreciation I've had a fair share of that & criticism as well,I have numbers/stats/tests to back up my claims,if defending my views based on that makes me a fanatic,I am least bothered.& I am not forcing you to,I am not enjoying this either.

Well, first of all, there are two arguments here. The angelics one is well overblown and I've stated my opinions on it above. The second one is what you are referring to. Of course, I shifted the focus of a comparison between BK ring and Steelrends. Thats where the attention should be focused. You're recommending souldrainers, highlords and bulkathos. I'm recommending steelrends, a dual leech ring and highlords. Dual leech ring = Souldrainers. Highlords = Highlords. So the only two items left to compare are Bul Kathos and Steelrends..

I am recommending Soul drainers highlord bulkathos?.Saying this for the 2nd time:My advice:His weapon is botd(dual leech),so I did say Steels.Botd is defense cut:highlords/raven/bk.Both bk & raven are better than a dual leech ring.Botd gives all the leech you need.Bk gives +1 skill:more ar/dmg/defense/life & ll.Raven gives 20 dex,cbf & ~250 ar.Much better choices than the avg/possible stats of a dl ring for a botd.Are you arguing against this?

"dual leech ring=souls.Highlords = Highlords": I believe you said earlier that a dl ring is better than souls,I cant make much of the second one.

No need to attack here. Steelrends are the best choice beyond botd weapons, they're a better choice for a much larger swath of weapons. I'm just pointing out that he's not asking for an easy and cheap solution. He's asking for the best solution and I really don't believe that your suggestions give him that - they may be good suggestions, but certainly not the best (although angelics for PvM is a poor suggestion IMO, unless you're just looking for cheap/untwinked)...

good or poor? & IMO? I have provided backing on why angelics is not a 'poor' suggestion for pvm atleast.Actually,for base dex wwinder builds like titans/IK or vita polearmers angelics is really a good choice,if not the best & if you hang around here long enough,you'd notice I am not the only one who uses & recommends them,for base dex/non defense cut/itd weapons.'IMO' wont cut anything,when you rate others advice.I have a logical explanation: Since ar is less important with defensecut/itd,highlords is clearly a better choice. But for other weapons ar is needed at high levels 7k minmum in hell to hit often enough, plus I have backing for that in tests/calcs/stats etc.

I never said this was guaranteed. Like I said, its a bell and whistle of using a dual leech ring, its not the selling point. The selling point is freeing up the glove spot for Steelrends (and the benefits of it over BK).

If he can get a dual leech ring in the bk slot,then yes obviously souls must be replaced with steels,since dl is the only reason one uses souls, & bk should go.Are you arguing for this? The logic is simple:Steels are better than souls but what about ml? so dl replaces bk to replace souls with steels.Thats obvious as hell.How does that become steels vs bk argument? & beleive me I am not arguing with you on that.

The first time the word 'dual angelics' appeared was when you said it. I said angelics is a bad choice for PvM, which was in reply to your suggestion of angelics + bkring. Since it was a reply to your suggestion, it was implied I meant a single angelic ring. Implications can be tricky things, so I'll let it slide..

You said "that is a really poor advice for pvm" meaning everything I said in that post was crap.I am just defending my views & with proof.Actually I am amazed at you statments about angelics being a bad/poor choice for pvm. My view: Depends on weapon. Both setups have been tried & tested & not just by me, some are of the view that wrath is slightly better, some say angelics is for (for titans & ik),I am of the view the choice depends on weapon. You can check the guide stikeys of ww & ik. Guides here are heavily scrutinized before they are added so you can be absolutely certain they dont contain poor advice.

Obviously. I never suggested using battlecry on everything that moves. Just monsters where it'd make a huge difference, angelics or not - monsters with large defense and multi-whirl battles such as Lister and Bosses...

Indeed,thats why I said it,you arent killing bosses & lister all the time.Normal & more numerous Monsters like frenzy minos,death beetles & many others have very high defense ratings as well.2k+ & some like the bone scarab have higher defense than Lister minions:2.4k.Even with 7k ar your cth is 75%.

I'm arguing against your first suggestion. The second suggestion, I've argued plenty enough about in the first part of this post. Again, I've gone over this above.

His weapon is botd.So according to my first post:I am saying steels & wrath/raven/bk.Are you arguing against this?.If the second suggestion is angelics,yes you have argued enough but never really convinced me on why angelics is a poor choice for pvm.

Nuff said, the discussion is over, unless you have anything new to offer.

I can imagine why you are saying that.

I have put a lot of time & effort in the forum with tests/stats & discussions with fellow forumers etc.. to come to conclusions about advices I give here & unlike you it is not my opinion that drives me, I have factual backing for that, so I wont appreciate careless remarks being aimed at me.

Razgriz

 

[Vajar]

A difference of 3264 final ar without demonlimb & 4829 after dl.The diference in cth isnt 5% more,its more like 15 to 20% cth depending on the target.

Dead wrong. I tested on many monsters (including high defense ones), and a difference of 2500 AR made about a 4-6% difference in chance to hit. I just did some tests on Death Lords with ARs of 4600 and 7600 and the difference was 9%. No where near 15-20%. Considering that Death Lords have one of the larger defenses, 9% should be the upper bound.

The difference isnt 'less' when you add demonlimb,its clearly greater & please explain 'diminishing returns' on ar calculations.

Diminishing returns means, at high levels of AR, adding to AR makes less of an improvement than when you add AR at lower levels of AR. Demon limb boosts your AR to much higher levels, therefore, diminishing returns makes the difference in chance to hit, less.

I am not offering anything 'new',but I believe you should know:33% deadly from highlords doesnt mean 1.33% more damage(also..p.s: its not percentage its *1.33 or 33% even if its wrong). Critical is checked first & if it fails deadly is checked & they exlude each other when they are checked individually.
Final chance of double damage=CS + (DS/100)*(100-CS)
So with 22% critical,15% deadly from gores,highlords only offers a 26% more chance of double damage(*1.26) not the listed deadly of 33%.Instead of 33% or *1.33(22 cs,15 ds) the multiplier is 59% or *1.59.

Ahh, correct, that one must have slipped through on me. 1.26% more damage it is.

Not for non shields users.Max resist are obtained with gear like arreats/coh/anni.Arreats is pretty much standard isue but coh & anni are pricy.Actually life from inventory is a good bet as well,Titans?

None of my barbs have problems with resists (max'd), yet none of them use a shield either, nor do they have anni or coh (single player). There's something wrong here. Oh, and I only have 1 pt in Natural Resists.

I am recommending Soul drainers highlord bulkathos?.Saying this for the 2nd time:My advice:His weapon is botd(dual leech),so I did say Steels.Botd is defense cut:highlords/raven/bk.Both bk & raven are better than a dual leech ring.Botd gives all the leech you need.Bk gives +1 skill:more ar/dmg/defense/life & ll.Raven gives 20 dex,cbf & ~250 ar.Much better choices than the avg/possible stats of a dl ring for a botd.Are you arguing against this?

I'm saying for non-BOTD a dual leech ring and Steelrends is better. You recommended soul drainers and bk ring for non-BOTD users (or angelics). I'm saying this is poor advice.

"dual leech ring=souls.Highlords = Highlords": I believe you said earlier that a dl ring is better than souls,I cant make much of the second one.

A dual leech ring = soul drainers, if it has no other mods. I thought this implication was obvious, but apparantly I was wrong.

good or poor? & IMO? I have provided backing on why angelics is not a 'poor' suggestion for pvm atleast.Actually,for base dex wwinder builds like titans/IK or vita polearmers angelics is really a good choice,if not the best & if you hang around here long enough,you'd notice I am not the only one who uses & recommends them,for base dex/non defense cut/itd weapons.'IMO' wont cut anything,when you rate others advice.I have a logical explanation: Since ar is less important with defensecut/itd,highlords is clearly a better choice. But for other weapons ar is needed at high levels 7k minmum in hell to hit often enough, plus I have backing for that in tests/calcs/stats etc.

I'm saying you don't need the extra AR from angelics. Suggesting to use angelics is a poor suggestion. I've backed this up from statistics I posted in my last post. There are much better ways of increasing your AR that won't put a significant dent in your damage (26%). In addition, I found few people in your forum post that actually liked your idea of using angelics for PvM. The responses were more like 'cool, a cheap setup'.

If he can get a dual leech ring in the bk slot,then yes obviously souls must be replaced with steels,since dl is the only reason one uses souls, & bk should go.Are you arguing for this? The logic is simple:Steels are better than souls but what about ml? so dl replaces bk to replace souls with steels.Thats obvious as hell.How does that become steels vs bk argument? & beleive me I am not arguing with you on that.

It becomes a steels vs bk ring argument because thats the only difference in equipment. You were suggesting one way, I was suggesting the other. The only REAL difference in equipment was one had bk ring, the other had steelrends - the obvious way to compare the two setups would be to compare steelrends and bk ring. This is ALSO obvious as hell. I'm surprised I've had to explain it (several times!).

You said "that is a really poor advice for pvm" meaning everything I said in that post was crap.I am just defending my views & with proof.Actually I am amazed at you statments about angelics being a bad/poor choice for pvm. My view: Depends on weapon. Both setups have been tried & tested & not just by me, some are of the view that wrath is slightly better, some say angelics is for (for titans & ik),I am of the view the choice depends on weapon. You can check the guide stikeys of ww & ik. Guides here are heavily scrutinized before they are added so you can be absolutely certain they dont contain poor advice.

Saying angelics is the way to go IS poor advice for PvM. The only reason to use it is because its cheap and anyone can get it.

Indeed,thats why I said it,you arent killing bosses & lister all the time.Normal & more numerous Monsters like frenzy minos,death beetles & many others have very high defense ratings as well.2k+ & some like the bone scarab have higher defense than Lister minions:2.4k.Even with 7k ar your cth is 75%.

Frenzy minos and beetles are the only normal monsters that have a high defense rating in WSK and other popular areas. Not exactly numerous. Taking half a second to cry right before a whirl is not gonna slow down your killing speed, at least compared a loss of 26% damage. In fact, with good AR, like you said, chance to hit is still low, at 75%. Even with angelics, taking a moment to battlecry will be worth it (if in a high players game).

I have put a lot of time & effort in the forum with tests/stats & discussions with fellow forumers etc.. to come to conclusions about advices I give here & unlike you it is not my opinion that drives me, I have factual backing for that, so I wont appreciate careless remarks being aimed at me.

Considering I've argued my points quite well, my remark is far from careless. I could understand if I was wrong.. but not when I've shown ample evidence to support my claim (like many others have in your post about BvC). Thats great you've put a lot of time and effort - you explored one option and it turned out not to be the best option, so live with it. Don't whine about it when people start proving it.

In the end, angelics is only a good option when you don't have highlords - making it far from a good suggestion. I've shown that it only makes around a 4-9% difference in chance to hit, while forgoing 26% damage, +1 skills, 35% LR, and the benefits of having an extra ring slot (which I've shown to be huge because it allows you to have a dl ring and Steelrends - 10% CB, 60% ED and whatever mods you add to a dl ring). Oh, and it takes away the 'inconvenience' of having to use mana potions... only in a few scenarios.

 

[Halciet]

Annnd this has gone on long enough. Closed thread.

-Hal