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Game history and fan reaction questions

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Lord Mhoram, Mar 2, 2015.

  1. Lord Mhoram

    Lord Mhoram IncGamers Member

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    I am new to the series with Diablo 3. I am also a console player - never having played ARPGs on a PC. So I have a lot of missing history on the series. My main question is outside Lore.

    I know many really think this is a bad game compared to Diablo II. Having never played 2, I don't understand why, and was curious. I also know that some Devs left, and others took over that may have affected the game. As Diablo 3 has become my second favorite game of the last 20 years, I'm curious on these opinions - I don't have any issues with the game- but then if it didn't fit expectations, I can understand.

    Hope not to start anything flamish - but saw a lot of negative reaction to the game at Battlenet, and just don't get why (other than human nature).
     
  2. LukDeRiff

    LukDeRiff IncGamers Member

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    In my opinion most of it is just your run of the mill internet hate that does not need any particular reason to exist.

    Other than that there are a bunch of reasons why players who played Diablo 2 dislike Diablo 3. Some of it is surely nostalgia. For many people Diablo 2 was the first ARPG that they played seriously and thus they had some "first time experiences" that you can not replicate.

    Another major reason for the bitterness is that the expectations and the hype for Diablo 3 at the time were surreal and while it was a very good game (imo) it couldn't live up to the expectations for a variety of reasons. Listing them all would take far too long but I can give you some of the major reasons.

    Diablo 1 and 2 had a much darker tone to them. The color pallet was less vibrant and the usage of gore, blood, satanic symblolism and such was used to create a mood that was more reminiscent of christian religious stories of catastrophes. Diablo 3 moved aways from that, much to the disklike to parts of the community (often saying that Diablo had undergone "wowification" to make more money).

    The Story of Diablo 2 in particular was told in a unique way that captured the tone of the world extremely well (if you like Diablo 3 go and play Diablo 2 it is still an awesome game, you can also watch the cutscenes on youtube).
    The Story of Diablo 3 hinged upon Lea, who is just not very likeable. In addition Deckard Cain was killed early on in the game and died a meaningless death. Cain is basically your guide in Diablo 2 and one of the most iconic npcs in video game history and a fan favorite ("Stay a while and listen"). The fact that he was basically thrown away as a character early on upset a lot of fans of the series.
    Lastly the Heavens and Arch Angels were these mysterious forces that you interacted with through Tyrael but they remained this mysterious unknown factor. In Diablo 3 the Arch Angels motives and motivation bears a strong resemblance to that of humans. Instead of being the enigmatic counterpart to the forces of Hell they become petty, narrow minded, human hating fools whose only goal seems to be self preservation.

    Another major reason for the outcry of the community was the fact that Blizzard removed skill tress from the game. This was not necessarily bad but it was something that changed and a lot of people just wanted Diablo 2 with a new story, better graphics and more loot. Diablo 3 was and is not that and that upsets some people.

    Additionally on launch Diablo 3 had some major issues with its itemisation if you want to know more about that I recommend you check out the "Evolving Reaper of Souls" Panel from Blizzcon 2014 on youtube. Closely tied to that was the Real Money Auction House which led many people to believe that Diablo 3 was pay to win.

    There is more criticism, some of it justified some of it not but in my opinion and that of many others the game has been toward better shores for quite some time now.
     
  3. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

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    You're right that there are many who feel D2 was a better game than D3. I don't think you'll start a flame war just by asking this question. It is legitimate and now that D3 has been out for a while it is probably good to re-look at this.

    D2 was developed by a small branch office of Blizzard called Blizzard North. It seems like they were a small studio working to deliver the best game possible. They seemed like a tight knit group who took fan input seriously and even knocked about with fan forum owners (like here) and other press. For me, D2 was about trying to get at least to level 92 if not maybe 94 or 95. Making thousands of Baal runs (Baal was the end game boss that dropped the best gear) to get there and ever hoping for that elusive awesome drop and adding to my Grail of items. Maybe one I'll finish that Grail. It was kind of a chore to level characters and go through the story 3 times and then start making Baal runs. But it was fun to try new builds, look for good gear and and play with friends or non friends alike. The story was dark and the cut scenes dramatic.

    It was fun to follow guides and learn the inside information that people here wrote about in the early days. There were guides galore and some builds were better than others. The community here was thriving and the forums were bustling with activity. It became a way of life for us who spent time here. Get off work, visit the forums, make a few posts and then play D2 until bed time. D2 has a special nostalgic place in the hearts of many gamers. We spent thousands of hours in the game and for years and years, those were the good old days. Plus there were fewer gaming choices in those days so D2 was a star that demanded play time.



    D3 on the other hand, was developed by a huge studio owned by a publicly held company. It felt like their fan base was so far away from them as they could be in terms of being heard. Everything seemed secretive and we fans didn't learn much about the development of the game. Once the Beta was out many of us got in and we were reporting that while things seemed fun there were issues. The Beta only allowed us insight into the first part of Act 1 and while it seemed fun it wasn't D2 at all. Once released, we discovered that the game had serious flaws in drop rates, difficulty curves and story development. It was as far away from D2 as could be. Not that that's a bad thing, most of us expected a new game, but some folks expected an updated D2.

    As time went on, Blizzard worked to support the game and listen to it's fan base. Many changes were made to the drop rates and difficulty. The flawed, and IMO, cliched story was enhanced by Adventure Mode, in which you can totally ignore the story and just do other things to level. Clans were a fun way to play with friends but they lacked information for officers and leaders so they, too, were flawed like the story itself. That has since been fixed. Drop rates increased, new items added and drop rates increased again. Now D3 is a fun game and I am playing in Season 2, having missed Season 1 due to Path of Exile getting my play time. But the "getting there" portion of D3's history was in some ways painful for many fans and I know several who aren't playing anymore due to the early days turning them off.

    So, D3 was divisive among fans. Some liked it and enjoyed playing. Others, seemingly a vocal minority, disliked it and came here to voice their displeasure. I like it now, but there are several other games that demand my limited play time. So probably not thousands of hours for me.

    Others will fill in more detail for you but that's my story as I remember it right now. I'll add more as I remember stuff. Thanks for asking.
     
  4. Lord Mhoram

    Lord Mhoram IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the details. I figured it was something like that - I'm a huge Rock Band fan, and the community there could get toxic - every week people would complain that their favorite song was not DLC. I have Diablo 1 and 2 on my machine, and if I ever get to where I'm not playing D3 for hours at a time, I will play them. :D I did watch the youtube "story" videos.

    Thanks for the details, I appreciate knowing more of the history of the game/community.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  5. korialstraz

    korialstraz IncGamers Site Pal

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    This was pretty much the case even before D3 was released. If you haven't read The Sin Wars trilogy, then you should consider it. Very good books imo, and it gives a pretty good insight into the world of Sanctuary, the way Demons and Angels operate (to some extent), and some backstory as to how Nephalem came to be. There is also a small taste of the power Nephalem can achieve, under the right conditions. Hint: Nephalem doesn't **** around... at all!

    With all that said, you have to keep in mind that the Angiris Council (representing High Heaven), was pretty much evenly split between wiping out the Nephalem, or helping them out. The Angels aren't so much afraid of us as is, but what we might become should we be corrupted by Demons. Keeping in mind that the fight between the two are pretty much locked into a stalemate. They're locked in eternal combat. And if you've been fighting a force for centuries, I'd bet my hat that you would also be terrified of anything that could heavily tip the scales in your opponents favor.
     
  6. LukDeRiff

    LukDeRiff IncGamers Member

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    I am not hugely into the Lore of Diablo so my comments have been solely based on the games. I am intrigued though and will take a look at the trilogy. Thanks for the pointer :)
     
  7. korialstraz

    korialstraz IncGamers Site Pal

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    No problem! A few years ago I got completely absorbed in the lore. Spent lots of time reading lore related stuff on forums, and after learning that there are books based on the universe, I went out and bought all of them lol. :D
     
  8. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    I wish people would stop pulling the "nostalgia" crap. If I want to be nostalgic, I don't play anything from this century that's for sure! Nostalgia also hints that the game is something remembered dimly from the past. Many people (myself included) went straight from playing D2 to playing D3 and the change was shocking to say the least. I like to plan and micromanage things; knowing that I have to have enough points in a certain stat at a certain time so I could equip a certain item. This was almost completely removed in D3, if you meet the level requirement (and there wasn't a class requirement) you could equip it. Elemental and physical immunities were removed, so you no longer had to have backup plans, but it also had the effect that it didn't really matter what skills you choose. You could compete almost as well by choosing your skills and runes at random as you could with the best planned character. Also, RND became not just king, but supreme ruler. In D2 if you wanted a specific item you could target a certain monster to find it. You simply cannot do this in D3. Personally, I think the biggest killer is the sole reliance of items for your damage. In D2 you could find a BIS almost any time in the game. If you wanted a challenge you could play using substandard equipment (or even no equipment at all). In D3, the only BIS items are the highest level items (and then blizzard comes along and plonks another tier over the top, meaning you have to do it all over again!!). Forget about the esoteric changes like the storyline, tone, etc., these fundamental changes to the mechanics of the game really got up the nose's of many of the D2 players (again myself included). I got about 10 months out of D3, but it changed and I didn't like the changes so I've left and never went back. The changes that RoS brought with it have, in my opinion, removed any resemblance D3/Ros had to D2. Since leaving D3, I have returned to D2 and I'm loving it all over again, all fresh after my break. And not because of any "nostalgic" reasons, but because I believe it to be a better game; or at the very least a game that I want to play rather than a game that if I never play again it wouldn't worry me in the slightest.
     
  9. Dacar92

    Dacar92 Community, Amazon, DH Moderator & Inc Clan Officer

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    Very well said Nix. I think you hit a few nails on their heads. I also think that many people don't play D2 any longer. Many haven't played in years. That's where the term "nostalgia" comes from. I said it myself above. In D3, people wanted a reworked, updated D2. That's out of a feeling of nostalgia for D2. Because they had a great time playing D2 and wanted that feeling again. It didn't work out that way so those people were upset and subsequently left the game.

    D2 came out in 2000. That's almost the last century and certainly ages ago in gaming and technology terms. So I think the term nostalgia is used here well and fairly. When D3 was released, it was 12 years since D2 was released. That's a lifetime ago in gaming terms. Now it's almost 15 years ago. Nostalgia is defined as "a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations." I have nostalgia for those old D2 days. I also think many other people do, too.
     
  10. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    I was 37 when I first started playing in 2001, it's hard to get nostalgic about something only 15 or so years ago. My Commodore 64 on the other hand!!!! I see the term "nostalgia" frequently used as a derogatory term, not so much here but elsewhere. I have heard a lot of people say things like "you only like D2 better because you use to play it as a kid and you have forgotten how bad the game actually was." When I point out that I was in my mid 30s and I'm still playing it, the response it almost always something along the lines of "gaming has changed, keep up with the times."
     
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  11. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    Here are the reasons why D2 was held in such high regard.

    1. The original version of battle.net is VASTLY superior to the current version.

    The original battlenet, back in the late 90s to early 2000s, was literally a SOCIAL HUB for young gamers. Kids would log onto the internet and then logon to battlenetfor their social interaction. Then they would decide if they jut wanted to sit and chat on battlenet or fire up Starcraft, Diablo 2, or War 3.

    Battlenet 2.0 is a complete train wreck and needs a major overhaul. Its social features are very poorly designed. There is no community on battle.net now. The concept doesn't even make sense the way it is coded.

    Social features are critical because friendships, bonds people form, keep them logging in and playing. It becomes a positive feedback machine.

    2. D2 had superior in-game social mechanics compared to D3.

    For example, some people would create a special character, an enchantress, for the sole purpose of giving new players a huge boost in the early levels. This caused people to all join the same games, and they would cooperate and have fun at times.

    Some people would rush new players through an entire difficulty, which again was social interactive and fun.

    Early game revolves around tristram rushes, which is again cooperative and provides social interaction and fun.

    Late game involves hell chaos runs and baal runs, again it is optimal to group up and play with other players, and conversation happens and its more interactive.

    Cow runs used to be end-game before baal runs, and again it was cooperative and interactive and fun

    D3 severely lacks social interaction. They've added guilds (which is probably a mistake as it doesn't really create the same social interaction the game needs) but the core gameplay right now its running bounties rifts and greater rifts, which doesn't really provide any social interaction at all. its a valid playstyle and can be fun and is certainly better than how the game was originally built, but it can't compete with D2 like this.

    There's also the huge problem of only having 4 players in a game vs 8 in D2. That NEEDS a fix, hopefully in d4.

    Im extroverted, and its quite obvious that D2 was designed for extroverts and D3 was designed for introverts. And the game suffers because of that. D2 has a lot going on where you interact with lots of people. D3 is solo in comparison.
     
  12. Lord Mhoram

    Lord Mhoram IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the info you fans of D2. If it were ever on consoles, I think I would try it. I detest mouse/keyboard for video games. A friend told me that if you got some skills wrong because you didn't understand something you couldn't just change them, you had to start a new character?

    The extrovert/introvert could apply to me - I never played D2, and D3 I don't play online, I just do co-op with my wife. Most of my play is solo.

    And TheNix - Oohhh-laaaa :)
     
  13. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    You can change your skills in D2.

    It is gated however. A very early and easy quest in Act 1 unlocks 1 skill reset. You get it 3 times per character because you will quest in Act 1 once on each of the three difficulties. You can change your skills unlimited times afterwards, but it requires assembling a token from 4 items that has a chance to drop off of 4 bosses. The token is also not difficult to get.

    So you can reset skills unlimited number of times.
     
  14. Lord Mhoram

    Lord Mhoram IncGamers Member

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    Makes sense then. Cool.
    I have it installed on my computer, just having a hard time pulling away from D3 to play it. Right now D3 is my favorite computer PRG of any type I've played, and my second favorite game in the last 3 or 4 generations. Classics like Sonic, Zelda 2 or Mario just aren't fair to compare to.
     
  15. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    Most people currently play D2 on softcore nonladder. There's actually a lot of games to be found there usually. I would recommend starting there if you want to try it out.
     
  16. TheNix

    TheNix IncGamers Member

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    Or you could play Single Player, there is still a fairly active Single Player Forum here!
     
  17. fmulder

    fmulder Site Contributor

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    Agree with single player, you can play at your own pace that way.
     
  18. Lord Mhoram

    Lord Mhoram IncGamers Member

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    Yeah - when/if I play, it would be single player. I don't do online multiplayer - I've tried it a few times on different games and have horrible experiences with it. Alos, I started video games when I was a kid with the Odyssey 1 Pong machine - kids these days and their new-fangled online gaming.... :D Video gaming has always been a solo activity, aside from people in the room with me. I'm a console game much more than a PC gamer, so the online gaming stuff is newer in that particular culture. When Doom came out and online play in the action games went huge, the consoles were just moving from the SNES and Genesis to Playstation 1.

    Ladder is basically "leaderboards" right? Rankings and such- I wouldn't bother with those - I have never really looked at leaderboards... well once, when I was #1 on a song in Rock Band for a few minutes.
     
  19. Fizoo

    Fizoo IncGamers Member

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    I played on the odyssey when I was a kid in the 70s :)
     

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