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Frozen Nova sorc

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by DettoAltrimenti, Oct 24, 2006.

  1. DettoAltrimenti

    DettoAltrimenti IncGamers Member

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    Frozen Nova sorc

    Hello,

    First, I'd like to know if anyone has ever tried to make a Frozen Nova sorceress. I was wondering if maxxing cold mastery, frozen nova and its synergies, with FCR eq, would make a decent build, who could at least survive through nightmare? What do you think?
     
  2. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    may survive NM, but no farther - at least using frozen nova as her main attack. Damage is too low. But the synergies are useful (blizzard and forzen orb). If you make a straight cold sorc and use frost nova it will work, maybe even as a hell meph hunter. But there's lots more damaging spells in the cold tree. Unfortunatly frost nova isn't a synergy for anything else, so pumping it up is kinda a waste.

    Even with +15 all skills here's what you get.

    20 Frost Nova
    20 Blizzard
    20 Frozen Orb

    Frost Nova
    creates an expanding ring of ice that damages
    and slows all nearby enemies

    Current Skill Level: 35
    10: Cold Damage: 680-775
    11: Cold Length: 42 seconds
    1: Mana Cost: 43

    40: Frost Nova Receives Bonuses From:
    63: Blizzard: +10% Cold Damage per Level
    63: Frozen Orb: +10% Cold Damage per Level


    Compare that to Nova (lightning based) which has no synergies

    20 Nova
    20 Lightning Mastery

    Nova
    creates an expanding ring of lightning
    to shock nearby enemies

    Current Skill Level: 35
    10: Lightning Damage: 1512-1997
    1: Mana Cost: 49
     
  3. mkombat

    mkombat IncGamers Member

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    Does that take Cold Mastery into account? Obviously it won't directly increase frost novas damage, but I think it's make damage done to the enemy considerbly higher



     
  4. FrostBurn

    FrostBurn IncGamers Member

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    All the listed cold damage that you see on your skills tab do not take CM into account. That 680-775 Frost Nova damage will be doubled when used against a 0% cold resistance monster and a slvl 17 CM.
     
  5. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    That's exactly right. People often forget about Cold Mastery when comparing cold skills, but -100% cold resistance is *AT THE VERY WORST* worth as much as +100% cold damage, and in the best case scenario (monster with 99% cold resist), it could be worth up to as much as +10,000% cold damage (those are very rare situations, though, but it is possible).

    A brief mathematical comparison of Nova and Frost Nova. For this excercise, I'm going to use some abbreviations to save myself some time.
    40N = 20 points in Nova, 20 points in Lightning Mastery
    40FN = 20 points in Frost Nova, 19 points in synergy, 1 point in Cold Mastery
    60FN = 20 points in Frost Nova, 33 points in synergy, 7 points in Cold Mastery
    80FN = 20 points in Frost Nova, 40 points in synergy, 20 points in Cold Mastery

    Situation #1- against a 0% resistant monster, with no +skills.
    40N = 603 average damage
    40FN = 214 average damage
    60FN = 398 average damage
    80FN = 617 average damage

    Situation #2- against a 0% resistant monster, with +10 skills
    40N = 1292 average damage
    40FN = 563 average damage
    60FN = 981 average damage
    80FN = 1142 average damage

    Situation #3- against a 50% resistant monster, with no +skills
    40N = 301 average damage
    40FN = 125 average damage
    60FN = 265 average damage
    80FN = 509 average damage

    Situation #4- against a 50% resistant monster, with +10 skills
    40N = 646 average damage
    40FN = 397 average damage
    60FN = 736 average damage
    80FN = 1142 average damage

    Increasing the monster’s immunity only increases the amount by which Frost Nova will kick Nova’s butt.

    Yes, Frost Nova’s going to cost a lot more skill points to develop (traditionally, I plan on investing about 70 points into FN and its synergies on FN Sorks), but you also get more for your buck. For those 30 extra skill points, you will kill just as quickly against non-resistant monsters, MUCH more quickly against resistant monsters, and you’ll also get a huge chill length (10+ seconds in Hell), and a very powerful ranged attack to deal with monsters to scary to close to melee range with (Dolls, anyone?).

    All said, a Frost Nova sork is every bit as viable as a Nova Sork.



     
  6. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Sorry, I totally disagree. My point still stands that 1000 damage is too low to kill effectivly in hell. The only effective nova sorcs use infinity. You seem to be neglecting this. Nova + Ininfinity will give you 2-3x the damage of frost nova and break immunities.

    For Nova builds using infinity, factor in -85% resistance, and then carry it yourself for -45-55% more. (capped at -100% just like CM) The infinity will be breaking 90% of immunities that cold mastery won't (Infinity for a cold sorc will only break about 5% of immunities also). Realistically, you need to look at 2-3x the damage I posted above for both Nova and Frost Nova. Also Nova+Infinity will kill 97% of the monsters in the game, Frost Nova + Cold Masteries will only kill 80% of the mosters.

    I don't mean to squash you idea before it gets started. But this has been tried. It works, just not very well. If you want to fast cast cold spells - synergize ice blast. It becomes pretty efective with lots of points - and you also get a synergized blizzard along the way. If you are looking to use frost nova along with a 2nd tree spell to get around the immunities, then you are still in trouble as frost nova takes so many skill points to synergize.
     
  7. Sgraffite

    Sgraffite IncGamers Member

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    Maybe I'm missing something here, but why will Infinity break more immunities for lightning than cold? It's my understanding that only the conviction aura can break the immunity so the -x% to resistance from Infinity/Cold Mastery would have no effect on what immunities are broken.



     
  8. Delreich

    Delreich IncGamers Member

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    Cold immunes generally have 120% CR or more, Lightning immunes generally have 115% LR or less. Infinity can't break immunes with more than 116% resist.
    That's the bit you're missing. Your understanding about reduced enemy resistance is correct.



     
  9. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    Infinity comes with lvl 12 conviction in addition to -45-55% enemy light resistance. You are right that the -45-55% part will not break immunities (but it will help lower them after they are broken). The level 12 conviction will break immunities up to 116%.

    Most Lightning immunes are at exactly 100% resistant, so it works pretty well. There are a few others at 105%, 110% and 115% - these will also be broken of course. Unfortunately there are about 10 monsters throughout the game with 120% lightning resistance, and 1 monster with 130% lightning resistance. These will not be broken. Fortunately most of these 120-130 resistant monsters are variations on the skeleton mages, and they are real easy for your merc to take down in one hit or two.

    For cold immunes, most of the monsters have between 130-160% resistances, so they won't be broken, no matter what you do. These guys aren't so easy for your merc to kill solo either.

    -edit
    I see I was beaten to it again

    I did forget to make a point earlier about +skill gear for cold vs. lightning sorcs. Lightning sorcs get exponentially better with lots of +skill gear. You get huge 12% increased per level from lightning master in addition to increased on the base spell damage. Fire sorcs only get a 7% increase for each level of mastery. Cold sorcs don't get any +damage from mastery, but they do lower enemy resistance. This -enemy resistance is generally better, but for the two builds we're looking at, both will keep monsters at -100% resistant so there's no advantage there.

    Here's what we get with +10 skill points

    Frost Nova: Cold Damage: 530-612 (double this to 1142 average damage)
    Nova: Lightning Damage: 1100-1484 (double this to 2584 average damage)
    That's ~225% more damage for lightning

    With +20 skill points
    Frost Nova: Cold Damage: 830-937 (1767 average double damage)
    Nova: Lightning Damage: 1983-2583 (4566 average double damage)
    That's ~258% more damage for lightning

    Maybe with some perfect gear you can make a better go of frost nova then others have. But you'd need a good Fathom (faceted), Nightwing Veil (faceted) and +3 Frost Nova (facted) to get a lot of +cold damage gear. At least the +3 frost nova ormus robes should be cheap. With perfect gear and facets you can add as much as 80-95% to your cold damage. (+80% and keep 105% FCR or +95% and drop to 63%). That would probably make it viable for Hell, but it will still be a niche build that's more for fun than serious play.
     
  10. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    I agree that Infinity will make Nova Sorks a lot better than Frost Nova Sorks. I disagree that the only effective nova sorks use infinity. Tell that to my nova sork who made guardian (yes, that's in hardcore) without using Infinity.

    I play legit. I don't dupe, and I don't trade for duped runes. That unfortunately means that I never get the giant stick of string-cheese otherwise known as Infinity. Infinity is gamebreakingly overpowered, anyway, and Blizzard must have lost their minds when they made Conviction available to non-paladins.

    Without Infinity (meaning for anyone who plays legit), Frost Nova Sorks will actually kill better than Nova Sorks.

    First off, you didn't squash my idea before it got started. I have a Cold Nova sork killing quite nicely in hell already, but thank you for your concern anyway. She also had plenty of points left to get a secondary killing skill- it only cost her 23 points to get 1 in Fire Mastery, Inferno, and Blaze, and a 20 point firewall. With her +6 Firewall Leaf Staff and an additional +3 skills from the rest of the gear she's gathered (she's no-twink), that deals over 3700 damage per second, which is more than enough to roast monsters in A5 Hell.

    L33t skillz beats out l33t gear every day of the week.

    More for fun than serious play? I never knew that playing Diablo was a job here- I thought fun was the whole point.

    There's more to life than Hammerdins and Enigmas.:laugh:



     
  11. MageChick

    MageChick IncGamers Member

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    You must play a lot more conservatively than I do. I'm used to sorcs (lightning, meterorbs, or blizzballers, etc) doing well over 30,000 damage per second. (see my posts about damage comparisons) I've seen some PvP builds approach 100,000 damage per second. Maybe that's a HC vs. SC thing. 3700 damage per second will pretty much get you laughed at in most games. Even if you add in a good frost nova (with 2x damage from CM) that's still less than 8k damage per second.

    If we're going to discuss untwinked (or HC or Classic) play, then you're right we should throw this whole argument out the window. If you play on US East SC L (or any realm) right now, pretty much the whole economy is based on high runes. Everything is traded with a HR value. The same is true for NL only it’s an SOJ based economy. It would be a totally different game without them. It would probably be a better game, but like it or not, that's not the game I'm playing now. That’s and argument for some other day.

    If we want to discuss untwinked play and builds (or HC, or classic or some other non-standard build) we need to preface the post with that, otherwise the standard assumption is SC, open play (and generally ladder). Single player untwinked, classic, or HC builds are more commonly discussed in the SPF, classic or HC forums. Although we are always happy to help any sorc here. Just be sure to let us know if you’re playing outside of the norm. (I’m guessing the original poster isn’t, although it is kinda hard to tell with 1 post)

    Getting through hell isn't much of an accomplishment anymore (even in HC). Is Superdave finished with his totally passive zon using no str or dex yet? He was just about to finish HC hell with nothing better than a cracked sash. (Soloing every part of the game - doing complete clears on /players 8) Good skills can definitely make up for a lousy build - but that doesn't mean you should recommend the build. I've got a half dozen char's well into their 80's that were never more than a bad idea and a long weekend. But they kept me busy for a weekend so I guess it was kinda fun. Maybe I should have worded my “serious play†comment d

    Like I said in the beginning, it may work - it just won't work well. It may even be fun for while, but the damage will be totally outclassed by most other standard sorc builds. I'm all about people experimenting with non-standard builds. It is fun to see how bad you can mess up a char and still get through the game. Just don’t recommend it as a good build.
     
  12. SSoG

    SSoG IncGamers Member

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    Okay, I can get that. A Frost Nova Sork is definitely not a cookie-cutter... and there's definitely a REASON it's not a cookie-cutter. It's not all just a life of strife and challenge, though. I'd say it compares pretty favorably with some other pretty well-accepted builds out there, in terms of difficulty (spearazons and Poisonmancers, I'm looking at you). I agree, if you've got the spare Infinity lying around, you're better off with a Nova Sork, but if you don't, a FN Sork will serve you just as well, and probably be more fun in the process.:smiley:



     
  13. Flayed One

    Flayed One IncGamers Member

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    I know it's called thread ressurecting, but since the discussion seems to be open, I'd like to contribute a bit.

    I am one of such crazy people, that built dual nova sorcs... Yep, that's right. I had frost nova/nova sorceress on europe ladder once. She didn't use any high end gear like chains of honor, or griffons, but she hit 105% FCR and that was quite essential to the build. Both frost nova and nova seemed to be equally usefull, and I had to learn against which target which skill should I use. Since I had no -lightning res, resistances often were a problem for me, but frost nova did well in such cases. The build was certainly not a cookie cutter build, and since I refused to use frozen orb and blizzard, She wasn't good at mfing. She was great at rushing though, and was very fun. The other thing I belive nova was meant to do is running cows. I never got to increase the damage of nova to such high end that I could run hell cows effectively, but I know it can be done, and I know that this skill was the best for clearing nightmare cows. Even my lightning sorc was worse(slower) at it. Nothing beats teleporting in the middle of cow crowd and casting nova three times... bam! the cows are dead! yay!:laugh: The built has one severe weakness though. Both her spells run through mana faster then you can think "both her spells run though mana fast"...:tongue: Even with 500+ mana and the level 17 meditation aura from insight I suffered from lack of mana a lot. I also wouldn't try the build in singleplayer since that 4 less +skills will make a big difference and even with them it wasn't a strong build.
     

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