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Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by knuckle, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Basically I have really been interested in fort sins and have heard that in wwsin vs wwsin fort & bramble sins have an advantage over a ghost sin and that they also fair a better chance against ww barbs.

    If you have either had a fort sin or bramble sin and dueled fairly frequently with it...

    How do fort/bramble wwsins fair vs ghosts? Do you think they have an advantage or still have a disadvantage (pretending each build has perfect gear and that skills of the players are equal/or are not factored in)

    Any additional info on issues with playing fort/bramble sins would also be appreciated (Other than lack of mobility, need good claws for fort, less life etc.)
     
  2. BAMFSpecialOps

    BAMFSpecialOps IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Honestly you covered all of the downsides of a fort/bramble sin mainly lack of mobility. Imo nowadays you will NEED enigma to keep up. I had a bramble sin that I dueled with for quite along time and still dueled with her after I built a hybrid and I have to give the nod to the hybrid.
     
  3. Von Lazuli

    Von Lazuli IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Playing with a Fort or Bramble Ghost versus an Enigma ghost you still struggle, despite the numbers indicating otherwise (similar life, higher damage). Once the enigma ghost realises that you cannot tele, you will get locked very very heavily, then once you whirl out, they will probably tele-whirl you and get one hit before escaping. You can win if you can react fast enough to their attack, but you really need to be in-whirl at most times to cause reciprocal damage.

    Laz
     
  4. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Using a fort or bramble build should give you the upperhand vs ghosts in a direct matchup.

    Granted a well played ghost can take advantage of a non teleporting wwsin and outstun him and attempt to hit and run with ow% drain and mindblast spamming but really a well played wwsin using fort/bramble (using stunlock tactics themselves, and not skimping on cast rates/trap speeds like novice wwsins) should be able to get the whirl hits in and will severely outdamage enigma wwsins hit for hit.

    Coming from playing a ghost, I can tell you that I have to be very careful when going enigma vs fort or enigma vs bramble, and I carry a fort switch with a str circlet to support if I come up against a bramble or fort sin for a 1v1. You can still outplay a lot of fort/bramble sins if their gameplay is lacking, but its difficult vs a good gameplay player when you can't afford to exchange any hits at all.

    On a sidenote I will tell you, bramble and fort are useless for just about every other matchup in d2, and pure bramble or fort builds are crippled in pvp vs all. Personally I find enigma wwsin duels much more fun than playing fort vs fort or fort vs enigma, and I will opt to play enigma vs enigma if my opponent agrees, however if my opponent puts on fort or bramble, even if I can beat them on enigma, I find it easier to do so using fort myself in that situation. It's like a bvb running at a wwsin, sure the wwsin can stun the hell out of them and drain with mb spam, but as soon as they exchange 1 whirl the ghost will be in a world of hurt.

    As Von Lazuli it is possible to still outplay bramble/fort sins, and if youre playing on bnet you may find a lot of bad gameplay/build bramble/fort sins to outplay.. but I really think the advantage goes to the fort sin in a direct matchup between two even players. My opinion from my experience.
     
  5. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    vouch etc.

    a ghost with bramble or fort is essentially just another wwsin. because of the dependance on both builds for melee contact to deal damage, the one that deals the most damage with ww should have the upper hand. with such low trap damages, you have to play PERFECTLY in order to beat a fort/bramble sin at range, and considering the randomness and the distribution of dueling events, it will be near impossible to play a perfect game.

    when i dueled with max on d2pk, the one wearing the fort usually won (we were both physical ghosts), but i think we switched back to enigma because it wasn't nearly as fun.



     
  6. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Thanks for your replies.

    A questionn for Wiz/Tienje though since they have great experience with the fort build.

    Did you still use 9x shadow 10x32020s? or did you swap out shadows for 32020s?

    Could you let me know a what worked best 32020s or 9x shadow gcs or what mixture of gcs/scs worked best?

    Thanks.
     
  7. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    both our ghost builds are physical (we use strong claws, highlords, and upwards of 30x 3/20/20s) so we use fort. if you have 9 shadow gcs, it would make more sense for you to use bramble.
     
  8. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    charms arent too much of an issue since i had a kicker and a zon so I have access to max/ar/life scs though they aren't 32020s.

    Alright, so when running a fort build could you rank the priority of the following.

    FRW
    FCR (65 or 42 bp)
    FHR (48BP)
    DR (Need 50%)
    10 Frame trap laying

    Basically Here are my issues.

    I can use 3/20/5frws and 5resis/5frw scs that I personally held since 09 to give me some frw to increase mobility. However, I would "lose life" in the sense that I am not using 20 life suffixes. Would the frw mobilitly be worth the tradeoff for the life?

    If I run the 65 FCR bp I either can't achieve 50% DR or the trap laying bp.

    If I run 50% DR and trap laying BP i can still hit the 42 fcr bp.
    My options are:
    65% FCR, 10 frame trap laying, ~upper 30ish DR (Dependant on how many shadow gcs I use).
    65% FCR, Mid 40's DR (Dependant on how many shadow gcs I use), 11 frame trap laying.
    42%FCR, 50%DR, 10Frame Trapping.

    And finally will the 48 FHR BP be good or can I go lower and just ww out of stun?

    Thanks for your help.



     
  9. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    are you making a fort sin or a fort swap for your ghost?
     
  10. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    I will be making a fort sin.



     
  11. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    i would strongly suggest against doing that. you won't be killing very much without enigma.
     
  12. wizAdept

    wizAdept IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Are you building the character with only dueling other wwsins in mind, and s/e when anything else hostiles? A non-enigma sin is quite crippled vs pretty much every other class.

    Also imho it makes for some boring wwsin vs wwsin duels, even if it does give an advantage in a direct matchup vs an enigma build.



     
  13. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    I realize it is crippled.

    It is mainly for dueling vs wwsin. I can easily switch to an enigma. I have the charms and I can run fort with by only adding 3 points into my base strength without using any strength charms/strength gear.

    So I don't get the lack of mobililty criticism.. I am a normal enigma ghost. I am just asking about how to maximize my fort switch that I will use against other wwsins. I just wish to primarily use fort for fun. If I lose, no hard feelings.



     
  14. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    fort sin != ghost using fort.

    we asked whether you were making a fort setup for your ghost or a full-out fort sin, to which you responded it was the latter, which was why you're getting the concerns regarding mobility.

    now that we know you aren't making a fort sin, i guess we can start to answer your question.

    if this fort setup is just purely vs other wwsins, then you should go for the 50 dr 42 fcr setup. you can always hit 9 frame traps if you WSM bug and use the right claws. you can switch between the higher fcr/lower dr setups if you know that the other sin is purely venom (using GT's for claws). switching your armor shouldn't affect your fhr, so the default 48 should be fine.



     
  15. knuckle

    knuckle IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    Thanks a ton for the input. I believe I have everything answered now with good reasoning. Esp the purely venom thing which I hadn't thought of.

    I realize ghost using fort & fort aren't exactly the same but I will be using such massive gear switches that it might as well be a ghost sin switching into a pure fort sin and both setups can basically run on base stats with everything dumped into vitality. I have already realized the lack of mobility/experienced it with an old bramble sin which is why i mentioned it in my OP.

    Unfortunately, I cannot wsm bug because my primary claw is slower and it can't switch because it is rare.

    Thanks again. Time to build a sin :).



     
  16. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: Fort and Bramble WWsin vs Ghost Duels

    some fort sins build for bos (while keeping high dr/res), which will require more than just gear switches to be able to do. because of the stat point restrictions, a ghost will really only be able to increase its damage vs another wwsin, while a pure fort sin will be able to actually resist the other wwsin using different gear swaps (like andariels viel)

    for your fort setup, you might want to try out dual chaos (+ dracs maybe?). sins have tiny amounts of def, so you probably won't need the AR mod on your rare claw. kb is actually pretty useful in bvb style duels as well.



     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008

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