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Followers are only useful in Normal

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by kuangtu, May 13, 2011.

  1. kuangtu

    kuangtu Diabloii.Net Member

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    Followers are only useful in Normal

    quote from Bashiok

    [BLUE="x"]They're also tuned so that they become very weak starting in Nightmare, and then are completely unusable in Hell. Even if you're playing alone, you will probably not be using Followers past Normal - - you can try but they're going to just be one-shot back to back.[/BLUE]

    yep......it's not only limited to SP or one man MP mode of the game, it's also only going to be useful in normal. They will become weak in Nightmare and eventually useless in Hell. I'm kind of disappointed to be honest, but I guess they want to give us a feeling of coop with a AI so we can find some real person to interact with....?
     
  2. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Short version yes. It's a tutorial and a story element. People will basically play through normal for the story (Blizzard seems to have designed normal mode to be winnable by monkeys if it comes to that), and it teaches you some basic elements of co-op play if you never played with other people before.
     
  3. Tenet

    Tenet Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    This system seems strange to me. Anyone who wanted followers like these in game is left disappointed when they can't be used during MP or after Normal. On the other hand, people who didn't want followers will be compelled to use them during normal mode for story purposes and/or bonuses.

    It just seems like a waste of development time and resources to implement something that is little more than a flashy tutorial, and is designed to become obsolete so quickly. I was never a big fan of mercs in D2, and I was not looking forward to their inclusion in D3, but after seeing the follower video, I was impressed. Now that I find out they are useless after Normal, I'm having a hard time rationalizing why they were included to begin with.
     
  4. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    See Starcraft 2 practice league and challenge modes. This seems strange to you because you are not the audience for it. It's rather amazing how much difference there is between various sections of a fanbase for a game.
     
  5. Tenet

    Tenet Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    I'm wondering who their target audience for this would be. Solo ARPG players? It's already been stated that the Normal mode (the only mode where followers have even slight usefulness) is entirely beatable without the use of followers. I don't see this enticing someone who prefers to play alone to go online to play multiplayer.

    I guess my real problem with the system is that it seems like a waste of resources and development time in a game that has probably been in development a bit too long already.
     
  6. Technomancer

    Technomancer Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Can anyone say "Expansion Feature"? ;) Remember how limited mercs were in D2 Classic?
     
  7. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    The majority of the ARPG fanbase. Again, people who max out characters, farm loot, or even really play beyond normal difficulty aren't the majority. Your problem is that every decision they make isn't pandering to the fanbase section that you belong to. You don't have to like it, but you have to remember that we aren't the only players that matter. The fact that they are even doing a nightmare/hell system with end-game for us is a gesture of good good will.

    Dunno. Diablo 2 Nightmare/Hell were untested, almost after thought features. This seems like a very deliberate decision.

    They could backtrack, of course, but I doubt it.
     
  8. ThomasJ

    ThomasJ Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    What gets me is why devs feel they need to "teach us" how to play. Like hello, we weren't born yesterday and many gamers have been playing rpgs for many years. I think even a first time player could figure this out.
     
  9. Sass

    Sass Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Mercs don't teach you squat. All it is is a merc system that fades off in the end-game to preserve difficulty. This hand-holding is just nonsense as a feeble attempt to attack having mercs.
     
  10. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Hm, attempts to call it a tutorial seem to have spawned a different overreaction. They explicitly stated what it is:

    http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27807930740&pageNo=2&sid=3000#34

    A casual feature for casual players. At best, an encouragement for players to try out multiplayer if they liked the feeling of not playing "alone."
     
  11. marshmallow

    marshmallow Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Diablo 1 had nightmare/hell.



     
  12. Risingred

    Risingred Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    And what they add to the story?
    Does anyone even care about whatever story or "lore" is in the game? I do. Even if it's bad, I want story. This just seems to be completely ignored for some reason.


     
  13. Tenet

    Tenet Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    I think you are grasping at straws to defend an indefensible position. This implementation of followers is a terrible one. But I think you already know this. If you'll read the entirety of what dissenters are writing, rather than trying to put labels on people, you may find out why we think it's such an awful idea.

    It's not about lack of concern for casuals (whom you seem to be stating make up the majority of the player base, which I find dubious); it's that this system is a completely unnecessary waste. It boils down to a flashy tutorial that, knowing Blizzard, took many moons of iteration.

    Anyway, I think this is the first poor decision the team has made, and overall I am really pleased with the game. I just think it's important to speak up when developers do something as ridiculous as this, rather than pretend that it's the best thing ever when it clearly is not.

    @RisingRed as far as story is concerned, this stuff could be implemented in the game in the form of quests and such.


     
  14. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Where is Flux when you need him. He is the one who posted that information about the reason for horrible Diablo 2 balance in after-normal difficulties.

    My point was that D2 Mercenary limitations were probably not the original plan, while in this case the limitations are very much part of the plan. Though, I will retract the D2 statement. I am not sure whenever D2 vanilla merc suckage was design or lack of time to properly implement and playtest.
     
  15. Risingred

    Risingred Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    It's likely a combination of both. They announced a lot of stuff late in the dev process (like guild halls and arenas) that ended up just getting scrapped.


     
  16. Tenet

    Tenet Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Not sure why there is so much comparison to D2 mercs. In many ways, followers are the opposite of mercs, and I think its detracting from the issue of this implementation of followers being so very silly. The whole issue is that, in the current implementation, followers bring nothing to the table other than a fancy and unnecessary tutorial. The story elements could come from quests and I'd bet good money my grandma could beat Normal with only having in-game tutorials.
     
  17. Sass

    Sass Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    An NPC following you around and kills monsters occurs in both games. In no way are they opposite. The comparison comes into play with what to keep, and what functions to avoid. It's very important to look to the past experiences when preparing for a future release.
     
  18. Tenet

    Tenet Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    They are opposite in that D2 mercs had no backstory, were paid, had few talents, were ancillary, and could be used for the entire duration of the game. There are many differences between followers and mercenaries. The vast majority of changes (giving them character, talent trees, increased usefulness, story role, etc.) were all very good improvements. If you're going to have hirelings in the game, these all needed to be different (opposite) of how it was implemented in D2. What I find so strange, and where I think they failed, is that they have zero usefulness after Normal.
     
  19. Sass

    Sass Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    Differences =/= opposites.


    It would be a fail if they continued usefulness into Hell. If you want opposite, then remove player dependency on them, remove the overpowering merc, and focus more on the player.


    W8...they did exactly that.
     
  20. konfeta

    konfeta Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Followers are only useful in Normal

    I have read it. It can be summarized as thus: "We think we are more important than casuals. Don't waste anything on them that is also not useful for us."


    I am using the elitist label because elitism is the driving force behind these so called "criticisms." Prove me wrong, if you want, however. Start by reading the link I posted where Bashiok explicitly states that:

    1. Casuals (i.e. players who don't play beyond normal, who play mostly on single player) the the majority.
    2. This was a system designed for the comfort of these casuals.

    See above. "this is not a lack of concern for casuals, but it is a complete waste" is a contradiction. You call a system designed for casuals a complete waste after stating that your disdain for them has nothing to do with it. Wait, what?

    So, again, prove me wrong. Give a coherent argument why you think Blizzard is obligated to turn Followers into a late game system. For extra credit, extend your current "waste" mentality to Normal mode. For super extra credit, extend this "waste" mentality to Starcraft 2's Practice League and Challenge levels.

    Because this:

    Isn't helping your case. You are forging an argument on a position that is irrelevant - this isn't a game system for players you described in the second sentence, nor for players in the third sentence. You argument is seemingly stemming from considering "like mercs or don't."

    It is admirable that you are considering both of those view points on the "have mercs or not" debate, but they aren't even relevant because Followers aren't designed to be on the gameplay level where those view points are even considered in the first place.
     

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