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fishymancer vs. Lister

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Artagas, May 14, 2005.

  1. Artagas

    Artagas IncGamers Member

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    fishymancer vs. Lister

    Hey,

    I pat-ed my fishymancer last night, and in a lots of ways i am happy with that char. (except for not having a clue what to do with my last 12 or so skill points) He is not as good a sniper as an mf-sorc of course but he can roll through most of the lev85 areas really fast with high mf, which is certainly nice (and that was the purpose of building him). Solo-ing WSK is easy except for OKs occasionally killing my merc, and the minions up until the venom lords die rather fast.
    But Lister and his pack is a problem even on player1. I used decreptify and attract on them, but still they got rid of my skellies rather fast. I tried dragging them to the venom lord corpses, but there is usually not enough left to finish them off with CE. I can tp back to Harrogath and grab some new corpses from Pindle and come out winning in a few tries but seriously it slows down my solo wsk runs a lot, and is also somewhat annoying. Is there some superior tactic against them? Possibly any revives that are particulary effective in that fight? (tried hell tempresses but they didnt do a lot)
    I only have +6 skills on, but it would be hard to get on more without losing mf (and mf is the point here pretty much).
    Suggestions welcome.

    Ps: Nice guide, Nightfish. I think you could add a part to the strategy section about the "chilly" part of actv (glacial trail and the like) where frozen horrors can pose a threat to a summonmancer (no corpses ==> no CE/ no army resupply. it was a true pain for me until i got some help in mp. ) Also what is the deal with unbreakable PIs? If there are corpses nearby, yeah i figure what to do, but how you deal with them without CE? I usually just ran away.
    Also what is the point in having revives as high as 12? I hardly find that many monster worth of reviving.
    And finally how you cope with mana issues? Casting CE almost constantly along with the costy revives i run out rather fast. I dont like to have more than 1 row of mana potions either. I could wear frosties i guess, but i prefer mf gloves for obvious reasons.
     
  2. Immortal_Slayer

    Immortal_Slayer IncGamers Member

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    Errr what i suggest you do is find as many prebuff items for the skellies as you can, then raise them at pindle's garden or act 1 before you go on questing. After raising your skellies, switch back to your mf gear and it should be fine, as skellies retain the stats they were summoned with...

    -Slayer
     
  3. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    Does Attract work on Lister+minions cause I don't think it does....they are immune to a lot of things:(

    I think you need a couple of more +skills to do him really effectively especially if he spawns with nasty mods (Fanatiscism:()). If you use Revives you should be doing fine they can tank the hell out of everyone..I find that the Clay golem is really effective against Lister, because of his slow/large HP/recastability. Just throw him in the middle of Lister's pack, he won't last too long but enough to give the rest of your army some breathing room, and you can always recast him.

    You probably don't have to much godly gear since you "only" have +6 skills, but a shako really really helps. +MF, +2skills and pretty much all the mana you'll ever need. Also be sure to use the weapon switch with Ali Baba+Rhyme, then you won't need as much MF on your ordinary gear. Also you can switch to some MF gear after you've killed Lister...from Vipermagi to Skullder's or something like that.

    There is no special point in having Revives at lvl 12, but they are kind of cool as meatshields. Just revive everything you come across, it can't really hurt you.

    With mana issues, if you can't get shako, Stone Of Jordan and such, then just don't focus too much on revives, skellies can do the job fine most of the time.
     
  4. Artagas

    Artagas IncGamers Member

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    I am actually wearing a PTopaz-d shako, without it i'd only have +4 skills. SoJs i dont have...
    As for the weapon switch, i have 2 problems with that:
    - currently i hold a spellsteel on switch for teleport which is very important in some cases
    - i like to have the mf in my "ordinary gear". If i wanted a character that just gets to Baal as fast as possible I'd use a sorc. The point of mf-ing with a necro instead for me is doing more throrough clears of the lev85 areas with all the mf on. Of course i could switch on some "killer" gear against the minions who dont tend to drop much good stuff anyhow.
    The clay golem is a good idea, though it indeed dies pretty fast. (maybe i should pump golem mastery with all those skill points left)
    I am also wondering if switching on kelpie instead of hone sundan for my merc would help any. (reaper's is not an option since it overrides my curses) The slow effect might be more useful against lister than the leech and the damage.
     
  5. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    I don't think you should pump Golem Mastery...it seems like a waste. Maybe just switch to Arm Of King Leoric when fightning the minions...it will boost the Clay Golem a bit more and give you some extra mana! Kelpie Snare would add some extra safety, but the extra damage from Crushing Blow on Hone Sundan will greatly help the mercs killing speed...and once the first corpse drops....CE:)

    If Lister totally destroys your army try using Decreipify on him...He'll still take some extra damage, and he will be greatly slowed (especially with Clay) and deal less damage. It might take a bit longer than with Amplify Damage, but might save you a trip to Pindle's Garden (Zombies ´R´ Us).

    I like MF as much as the next guy, but the consensus is that if it slows you down then it's a bad idea. And the difference between 200% MF and 500% MF isn't as great as one might think.
     
  6. Artagas

    Artagas IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, you were right. Attract doesnt do a thing. My last run was rather smooth though. I revived 6 venom lords and lister's gang got wiped rather fast, which is weird considering that they are all fire immune. Maybe the lords drew enough attention so the rest of my minions could attack freely.
    Yeah, decreptify works much better than Amp. I experienced with that a bit as well. Baal of course drops crap every time, but at least i had a taste of success. Thanks for the suggestions.
     
  7. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    Well if you have 9 or 10 skeles at least, and a reasonably well equipped merc, you should at least be able to take down 1 minion. then CE it, and you will find that if it doesnt kill any others outright, they'll be low life and so easy to kill. just keep them decreped and clicking CE skill until something dies, then it instantly gets blown up. Really shouldnt be a problem on P1. the ahrdest part is the first kill.
     
  8. Chimaira

    Chimaira IncGamers Member

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    1 thing... it's nice to switch to Amplify Damage right before you cast CE to ramp up the damage.
     
  9. Repusz

    Repusz IncGamers Member

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    I suggest using high +to skellies and sm gear on weapon switch. You could use an Arm of King Leoric and a +3 summoning skills shield and summon your skeletons with this gear. If you switch back to your MF gear the skellies will remain the same strong. Also, for Lister using Decrepify isn't neccesary. I usually revive Cold Mages from pack 2 and Council Members against Bhaal since both are casters (thus leaving enough room for the skellies and the merc) and the Cold Mages + the Clay Golem slow down Bhaal and Lister enough so that I may use Amp on him. The merc's Crushing Blow does the major part of the damage anyway.
    Against Lister's pack, Amp + CE is a highly effective combination, at least compared to Decripify + CE. Since they are FI, only the physical part of the damage matters and the Amp really helps here. Your merc should be able to kill an Amp'ed Minion in no time, then CE and you are almost done.
    It has happenned to me more than once when Bhaal forgot to explode Ventar's corpse that the 5th pack died in 2-3 seconds this way :lol:
    And if you use the weapon switch trick for increasing the skill level of your skellies, you shouldn't lose even a single one during a Bhaal run. At least that is how it happens for me usually.
    Hope I could help.

    --Repusz--
     
  10. DX-Crawler

    DX-Crawler Banned

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    If you are dragging the Venomlords back enough all corpses will be left to kill Lister's minions with. I used Teleport to get back enough so all corpses remain. Make sure that you're skellies are not so close to baal so they get decrep which will kill them rather fast.

    Good Luck

    DX
     
  11. Twoflower

    Twoflower Banned

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    stand behind baal so he decreps only you and not your minions

    decrep listers pack

    or do it as repusz said and resurect act 2 pack ice mages.
     
  12. DeathMaster

    DeathMaster IncGamers Member

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    amp damage might work better, if your skelly can stand for a while. NF guide recommend AD, and I have to agree with NF on this one, most of time, AD killed them faster, and you don't lose many skelly since they die faster.
     
  13. Artagas

    Artagas IncGamers Member

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    well, yeah, NF recommends AD if the skellies have no problem staying alive, which is not always the case. I tried a few more runs, generally your suggestions were useful, and i can handle them well at least on p1 (ok, not a big achievement but i usually do mf runs on p1-2 anyhow for the biggest drop/time average). If Lister spawns with nasty mods i do have to use decrep instead of AD or my whole pack will be dead in no time. ice mages help, what i am really missing is a shaftshop for my merc, so at least i dont have to worry about him dying. guess time to do some more mephisto runs. switching to AD before exploding a corpse than switching back to decrep works well too. killing baal is sort of a pain with higher player settings as well. it is not dangerous but takes a loooong while sometimes. guess some more cb on that merc would help.
    thanks for the tips.
     
  14. DX-Crawler

    DX-Crawler Banned

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    What gear are you using for your merc?

    I would recommend Hone Sundan and/or Guillaume's Face if you have them.

    But really killing Baal on high Players settings isn't really worth it if it takes too long time.

    DX
     
  15. Artagas

    Artagas IncGamers Member

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    I use gaze/rockstopper and a sundan. (actually i have two sundans one is socketed 3x amn, the other one is still empty. maybe i should try 2xShael 1xAmn, the cb would work better that way) I dont really have a good armor for a merc. Rattlecage would be cool for the CB but hit causes monsters to flee can be annoying. GA/Venom ward with the extra max res is sorta' okay, but not like insanely useful.
    Guillaume's I dont have yet. Maybe I should try Andy's visage when he hits lv83 (we are both lv80 now).
     
  16. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    I always used lots of revives. With 20+ minions, that first corpse will drop before you do...then, CE to the rescue.


    -GG
     
  17. bill_n_opus

    bill_n_opus IncGamers Member

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    Andy's Visage is a great helm for a merc because of all the great mods, especially the 20% IAS. However, the main problem is the - fire resist. But that can be cured if you have a sweet jewel or a Ral rune. I don't like the idea of a Ral rune because it's a singular fix whereas a rare jewel can add much more ... if you have one.

    A Fishymancer should have no problem with Lister and his pack on players1 unless you are really strapped for gear. I do Baal's minions on players3 with full MF gear on for me and my merc. ~ 600-700MF when he gets the kill.

    But there's a couple of things you should have figured out first:

    - you should have all the relevant curses and use them effectively. Like cast Decrep a split second before they materialize so they are blanketed by the curse.
    - you should have one hard point into mages (as meat shields and some ele damage) and revives (which are pretty much unkillable until their timer runs out. Lister can pretty pound on them all day without a scratch). Even with minimal gear you should have anywhere from 7-8 skeles, 2-3 mages and 4-5 revives and a clay golem.
    - if Lister spawns with tough mods you should decrep him and his pack.
    - there should be one or two corpses left from the previous pack before Lister and his boys come out. AMP and CE and that should take at least 60-70% of their life right off the bat. Especially if you are on players1.

    I run a bone/summon hybrid with Marrowalks so I have decent bone spells and any PI after Amp monsters can be decrep'd and then killed by spears. That or CE'd to death from the 50% fire damage of the CE along with spears.

    If you don't have Marrows or refuse to use them then your build will less powerful but that's a personal choice.

    If you don't have decent merc armor then run Hell Meph on players1 for items. You'll find something soon. If nothing then change your map seed. You have a Hone Sundan (Shael, Shael, Amn is usually what I do) so you have one part of the equation already. Use Guillame's Face for 80% Crushing Blow. Meph is dead quick.

    Do something like this:

    - run Pindle, use Naj's Puzzler or something like it on switch, let merc engage, cast Clay Golem, Amp Damage and then CE, check for items, raise skeles and then turn around and attract a monster in garden, Amp, CE, check for items, raise to max skeles etc.
    - Town Portal, way point to go to Meph, tele right on top of him and then back off from pack away enough not to get hit from his spells, cast Amp or Decrep, wait 20 seconds 'til he dies, check items, pop chest behind him, town portal and hit Hell Pits for more items and experience.

    Rinse repeat. You'll have a Leviathan, Shaftstop, Iron Pelt, Gladiator's Bane in no time. Any problems finding those armors then you'll eventually find a nice ethereal 3/4 socket elite armor in Pits and then go for Gloom/Stone runeword. Hope you are using a Might merc.

    Hope this helps.
     

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