Fishymancer - Version 2.1

[Humphrey]

...at level 23 I already have blood golem, and skellies aren't yet maxed. IIRC I put points in masteries for both already. I think he'll still work out, and eventually he will have all the right stuff, but I am still going to try again and follow the progression properly because I think he will be much more effective earlier on.

Don't restart, it's really not worth it for only 1 skill point (blood golem is the only one you have that isn't current useful to you if I've read what you're saying right. The clay golem is useful, even at that level). If you really want to, restart, but I wouldn't bother. Fishymancers are a very easy build, you'll survive fine how you are probably.

How exactly have you spent your skill points?

 

[Nightfish]

@ Humphrey: I wouldn't recommend deviating from guides just for the sake of not following what somebody else recommends. Usually, there's a lot of thought behind the advice passed out in guides and you can't just go and take out some parts of the build and still expect the character to work well. Almost all the complaints I've had over the years were from people that for one reason or another changed something about the build.

@ TrubbaNot: What exactly is unclear about skill progression now? Humphrey is right of course in that it doesn't really matter if you screw up the progression a little. I still wonder what's unclear about it. The main reason to do it like this was to make it more universal.

If something needs clarification I'll provide that but I doubt I'll update the guide again. For one it's going to be submitted to the SC soon and I don't want to make Mad Mantis do all the work again just for a tiny update. Second, I don't think I'll update this guide anymore, or write new guides, for that matter. I simply don't have the time anymore and I think especially this guide is just about as good and complete as it needs to be.

 

[ditch]

.

So Diablo's drops wouldn't improve much from P1 to P8? Does that go for other act bosses?

I had the hardest time getting good drops until I went to P8; I assumed that it was the same with act bosses, who haven't given me anything worthwhile (ie. uniques) in the past.

 

[Thirty-Thirty]

So Diablo's drops wouldn't improve much from P1 to P8?

No. They are at their best at /players 3.

Does that go for other act bosses?

Yes.

Basically, the chance of a monster not dropping decreases with more players. For bosses, it typically hits zero at /players 3. So when comparing /players 8 and /players 3, many more normal monsters will drop items, but bosses will be unaffected.

Also, champions and uniques have a set drop of 4 potions and 1 item, IIRC. This is completely unaffected by the number of players.

Edit: I have a feeling something in that last bit is wrong, but I can't remember what...

 

[Nightfish]

No. They are at their best at /players 3. Yes.

Untrue. Players 3 is actually just players 2 for drops. Check the lenghty thread which I can't find right now or the player settings section in my MF oddballs.

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=365977

Actually this contains pretty much everything I want to say about player settings so I'll not go into detail here. Just one small statement: We're talking about normal diablo here...

 

[Thirty-Thirty]

Just one small statement: We're talking about normal diablo here...

So Normal Diablo's no-drop chance is bigger than Hell Diablo's no-drop chance?

 

[Nightfish]

So Normal Diablo's no-drop chance is bigger than Hell Diablo's no-drop chance?

The point is: Who gives a rat's ass about normal diablo's no drop chance? Even if you're untwinked there's no reason to stop there with a skelliemancer since you can *easily* get to NM meph. Naked if you have to.

 

[guavo]

Picked up a wand awhile back that has +2 attract, +1 poison nova, so playing around with those a bit in NM to see if they will warrant any points later on. Attract seems to be pretty good crowd control against Melee + Nuke/Archer Caster groups, since the Nuke casters occasionally feel the urge to all simultaneously nuke my merc and insta-kill him... just pop attract on one of the nuke casters and they duke it out while my skellies/merc finish off the melee mobs. They rarely kill each other, but it keeps them busy and softens them up.

Yes, could prob do normal naked fairly easily... Could prob do NM half naked with just resist gear. Keeping level 1 Bone armor up + "The Ward" unique shield (+48 all resists) and I rarely lose any hps... Before I got the shield, was having issues with novas of enchanted uniques as they would drop me to 20% hp if I was standing too close.

Personally, I think doing diablo runs on normal difficulty level is a little crazy... since normal Baal and his minions are better exp, much easier, and no oblivion knights.

 

[Nightfish]

Personally, I think doing diablo runs on normal difficulty level is a little crazy... since normal Baal and his minions are better exp, much easier, and no oblivion knights.

Nobody was advocating normal diablo runs, unless I missed something.

 

[killian27]

Will the NIghtfish patented crushing blow boss-killing method, aka NPCBBKM.. , work with a bow? Or does crushing blow work differently with ranged? If so, is there a unique that serves this purpose best? Or just find a 5-6 os bow?




Oh, thanks for the quide by the way. I finally started a necromancer, when i considered it a class i would probably never play. Been a lot of fun so far, I still think i want my necro to carry a bow though. maybe it could be dubbed the BowFisher... ok maybe thats not really all that funny.. :lol:

Ok, thanks. Thats what I needed to know, i thought maybe i had read something about crushing blow not being as effective with a bow.

 

[Nightfish]

Crushing blow effect is halved for ranged attacks therefore it is preferable to go melee. With all the minions it's pretty much impossible to get killed unless you die IRL first... Of course you can just stick CB on your merc if you're lazy. When I wrote the guide I liked to take a hand myself.

The only bow I'd consider using is Edge. (okay, I'd consider faith if I duped runes... >_<) Thorns is going to be mildy useful vs stuff with a strong melee attack and PMH will be okay vs stoneskin PIs.

 

[guavo]

Nobody was advocating normal diablo runs, unless I missed something.

All the talk about normal diablo drops and I thought people were talking about running him

I think I did diablo first at 30th or so... and the stupid way of using no golem and amp as curse (Even though it's mentioned about 13,322 times in the guide to use decrep, golem, and skellies against the bosses)... he flat out wrecked me on /players 1. Finally beat him after about 20 minutes, but ended up sacrificing about about 100 skellies... Only time I've died so far with the Fishymancer and I'm a total d2 newbie (2 weeks playing, second char to beat normal)

So the moral of this story is that the guide is right...Cast decrep every 3s and keep recasting golem when neccessary on opposite side of the skelly army and and he'll eventually die. If you don't have decrep, golem, or summon resist then level up before facing diablo to get them, unless of course you like getting clobbered...

 

[TrubbaNot]

@ TrubbaNot: What exactly is unclear about skill progression now? Humphrey is right of course in that it doesn't really matter if you screw up the progression a little. I still wonder what's unclear about it. The main reason to do it like this was to make it more universal.

The new version requires much more careful reading. Obviously I did not pay close enough attention to "clay golem and the mastery) before fighting diablo" -- I must have remembered it as duriel instead...

new version (snip):
"Basically this is very simple, you will want to max your three main skills in this order:
- Raise Skeleton
- Skeleton Mastery
- Corpse Explosion

Put the very first skill point you get in amplify damage and make sure you get 1 in Skeleton Mastery pretty early, too. One point early on in corpse explosion might be useful for clearing the maggot lair and the arcane sanctum. Make sure you get decrepifiy before fighting Duriel and get summon resist (and as a consequence clay golem and the mastery) before fighting diablo. You don't really need the other golems, curses or revives before you enter hell."

old version (snip):
"2: Amplify Damage (1)
3-7: RS (5)
Akara: RS (6)
8: SM (1)
9-17: RS (15)
Radament: RS (16)
18-21: RS (20)
22: Weaken (1)
23: Terror (1)
24: Decrep (1) (before the fight with Duriel)
25: SM (2)
26: Clay Golem (1)
27: Golem Mastery (1)
28-30: SM (5)
Tyrael: SM (7)
31-32: SR (2)
33-45: SM (20)"

I think the old version is much more clear about how/when you should have RS maxed and where SM comes into play.

I understand why you don't want to make more work for Mad Mantis, and I've copied the old one for future reference for myself, but I did want to explain to you what was unclear to me. I think my confusion was mainly due to my failure to read carefully, though.

I will probably continue my existing character, but I really want to also make a new one following the progression you laid out in the earlier version.

It was indeed useful having a golem in the bug tunnels, because when I couldn't force him to lead onward in the direction of my choosing I could just recast him rather than having to dance with skellies. (I save that quest for just before entering the true tomb because I hate carrying the staff around for ages -- not using ATMA really limits your stash capacity.)

Anyway I just want to add that I appreciate all the work you've put into this guide -- thanks!

 

[Nightfish]

The new version requires much more careful reading. Obviously I did not pay close enough attention to "clay golem and the mastery) before fighting diablo" -- I must have remembered it as duriel instead...

...

I think my confusion was mainly due to my failure to read carefully, though.

Well, I'm afraid so... Maybe I should have put stuff in bold or something so it's harder to miss. I think if you read the new progression carefully it's quite clear. It's not like it's gonna kill you to have the clay golem for duriel. I never said anything about putting points in blood, though.

The thing about the old progression is that it's kinda static. If you get the extra skill points a few levels earlier (as you might on players 1) it's gonna be off for a while. The new one is universal. And of course you might need to adjust it to fit your exact build. Overall I like the new skill section a whole lot better because it allows for more customisation.

Unless you really screwed your skills, like by putting 10 in blood golem, I doubt there's a reason for you to restart the char.

 

[Humphrey]

The thing about the old progression is that it's kinda static. If you get the extra skill points a few levels earlier (as you might on players 1) it's gonna be off for a while. The new one is universal. And of course you might need to adjust it to fit your exact build. Overall I like the new skill section a whole lot better because it allows for more customisation.

That's what I meant when I was complaining about following guides exactly, I really dislike the ones that say exactly where one should put every skill point. I just think it's boring, and you don't get to consider what skills you prefer using. I prefer your updated guide for what it's worth.

 

[TrubbaNot]

I honestly don't know what I was thinking, putting a point into blood golem... but I didn't seriously screw him. He's a nice 'mancer, just not fishy enough.

Humphrey I see what you mean about feeling restricted by skill points placement -- I have read guides to see what skills are considered useful to complement one another (besides the synergy thing) and not followed precise progressions. When I cook, I do the same thing with recipes...use the basic formula, but with substitutions/omissions.

In any case, I seem to be the only one who couldn't follow directions from the new version. I'm not normally that dense. :lol: Blood golem. Sheesh!

 

[Nightfish]

Well you need one point in blood golem anyway. Prereq for Revives, ya know?

 

[TrubbaNot]

Well you need one point in blood golem anyway. Prereq for Revives, ya know?

I'm sure I'll get back to him, and he'll get on track and do well. In the meantime, I started a new guy. His name is TruFish, and he is carefully following the proper progression. He got lucky with a wand so he's got +3 to amp and a clay golem along with +1 to RS -- he's just maxed RS and next he will get his decrep pre-reqs -- I do like having the golem around, as he makes things even easier this early. Big change from my usual play style -- very fun!

 

[Nightfish]

Good luck with him, keep us updated and post a pat thread when you're done, will ya?

 

[TrubbaNot]

Good luck with him, keep us updated and post a pat thread when you're done, will ya?

Thanks! I surely will. Should I keep bumping this thread with my updates, or would you prefer a separate one? (BTW I suspect it will take me more than 3 days to pat him...)