Fishymancer and Resists?

[safetypro]

Fishymancer and Resists?

I've been following several mancer threads looking to equip my new build. I've seen several armor options expressed including upped magi, enigma, trang armor and let me throw this one into the mix Maj's Light Plate. When I planned my build I was originally thinking CoH for the resists and +2 however, I'm not sure now based on the differing opinions I see. I have a good resist torch and anni (19 each) set aside for the build but no matter which way I do the math I fall short on resists for everything but the CoH. I will be using a Shako, AoKL, Homunculus, Marrowwalks, a rare amulet, ravenfrost?, rare ring with resists and am still deciding on belt and gloves.

Any ideas?

 

[mephiztophelez]

resists aren't super-duper important for a fishy. dim-vision shuts everything down quite nicely, so no need to chase max-res too hard.

iirc, the only positive resists mine has is Fire (much aided by the 2x dwarfstars he carries) and Lightning. souls hurt when they hit, but liberal application of Dim Vision means i get hit rarely.

 

[AnimeCraze]

I would say enigma would be the best for this build. If you need resist, you can always have some sort of switch that keeps it up.

 

[illestkhmai]

resists aren't super-duper important for a fishy. dim-vision shuts everything down quite nicely, so no need to chase max-res too hard.

iirc, the only positive resists mine has is Fire (much aided by the 2x dwarfstars he carries) and Lightning. souls hurt when they hit, but liberal application of Dim Vision means i get hit rarely.

IIRC, dwarf's don't offer any fire resist, only absorb.

 

[jkra]

The reason you need resists for a fishy is because you're teleporting around and getting hit from elemental attacks. If you're going to use CoH or Naj's Light Plate (a really decent piece of set armor, IMO) for the resists, then you won't need resists anyway because you don't have enigma for teleport. Without teleport, you can just hang out behind your army and let your skellies, merc, and golem take the hits. Same thing goes for an Upped Vipermagi--faster cast rate and nice resists are more important for characters who have teleport.

I'd say get Enigma and make up your resists with charms/weapons on switch.

You have a good setup there. Just use it to summon your army and maybe have a hoto and spirit shield on switch (30-40 resists on the hoto; 45 from the spirit shield). The hoto and spirit's faster cast rate will also help your teleporting speed. If you don't want to invest in a hoto, a wizard spike will do. 50 faster cast and 70 resist all is perfect for when you're teleporting. The rest of the time you can hang out behind your army, use your curses, and spam dim vision if anything gets too close.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Spirit does not offer 45 resist. It's only 35, and to 3 elements.

As for my own necro, I think wizard spike is a beautiful teleing weapon, great for spamming CE as well.

 

[BobCox]

The reason you need resists for a fishy is because you're teleporting around and getting hit from elemental attacks. If you're going to use CoH or Naj's Light Plate (a really decent piece of set armor, IMO) for the resists, then you won't need resists anyway because you don't have enigma for teleport. Without teleport, you can just hang out behind your army and let your skellies, merc, and golem take the hits. Same thing goes for an Upped Vipermagi--faster cast rate and nice resists are more important for characters who have teleport.

I'd say get Enigma and make up your resists with charms/weapons on switch.

You have a good setup there. Just use it to summon your army and maybe have a hoto and spirit shield on switch (30-40 resists on the hoto; 45 from the spirit shield). The hoto and spirit's faster cast rate will also help your teleporting speed. If you don't want to invest in a hoto, a wizard spike will do. 50 faster cast and 70 resist all is perfect for when you're teleporting. The rest of the time you can hang out behind your army, use your curses, and spam dim vision if anything gets too close.

If you Like Naj's Set Armor grab the staff for your switch and "Look Ma - Teleport without Enigma" now lose the armor and use Uped Viper or full Tals set instead.
The puzzler is great for anyone that wants better teleport than enigma gives and can find gold or ort runes and chippys for after the 69 charges of level 11 teleport at 30% FCR with Mana and energy boost to power it and +1 all skills are gone. It's the best teleport item in the game, YES BETTER THAN ENIGMA thats why you see BVC etc using it on the switch for PVP.

The Armor is +25 all resists only and the High def low req and damage to mana +60 life etc, Now if you have the full set it's better +75 all and +3 skills and the Teleport and FRC etc. and I'm thinking thats what you must have meant?
You lose a lot with the circlet though.

 

[safetypro]

Some excellent responses, thanks guys. Here's what I took from the above discussion:
OK, you've convinced me to go with Enigma and the solution for the resists is Wizspike. I don't know why I always forget about that little gem every time I plan a caster build...LOL
Means I have to give up Beast but I guess I can live with that.
Summon Switch will be AoKL and +3 Boneflame. Play and tele switch will be Wizzy and Homunculus (pdiamond). With Trang gloves and one 10% FCR ring I can reach the 75 FCR break point for a decent tele. The Homunculus extreme high block will allow me to shoot for max block. Problem solved

 

[stephan]

If you Like Naj's Set Armor grab the staff for your switch and "Look Ma - Teleport without Enigma" now lose the armor and use Uped Viper or full Tals set instead.
The puzzler is great for anyone that wants better teleport than enigma gives and can find gold or ort runes and chippys for after the 69 charges of level 11 teleport at 30% FCR with Mana and energy boost to power it and +1 all skills are gone. It's the best teleport item in the game, YES BETTER THAN ENIGMA

Can you give some argumentation?

 

[mephiztophelez]

IIRC, dwarf's don't offer any fire resist, only absorb.

nah, really? yah THINK? gee, thanx SOOOOOO much for pointing out the obvious. i NEVER would have guessed unless you told me.......

/sarcasm.

It's the best teleport item in the game, YES BETTER THAN ENIGMA thats why you see BVC etc using it on the switch for PVP.

i have NEVER seen a BvC use a Naj-Puzzler switch for pvp. you are talking total and complete utter crap.

that said, i use a naj-puzzler on switch on my summon-nec because he uses a Wealth armour.

i also have a +goldfind/teleport charges amulet, but i keep the puzzler coz i don't have a spare CtA for my neccy... yet.
edit:

The reason you need resists for a fishy is because you're teleporting around and getting hit from elemental attacks.

err, fishy's are fantastic AREA clearers. if i wanted to tele straight past everything and wallop a boss, i'd use a sorc.

 

[Eilo Rytyj]

Resists come from a little skill called "Summon Resist". Oh yeah, and it only affects your minions. Which are the only important units in your army who need resists.

Agree with mephistophelez that Summoners are awesome area clearers, not so much tele-to-boss-through-dangerous-packs characters. I use a Sorc for that too, Necromancers cast way too slow to be any useful as boss runners in my books. Anything less than 9 frame casting is too slow. For me it's 8 frames or bust.

 

[safetypro]

Resists come from a little skill called "Summon Resist". Oh yeah, and it only affects your minions. Which are the only important units in your army who need resists.

Agree with mephistophelez that Summoners are awesome area clearers, not so much tele-to-boss-through-dangerous-packs characters. I use a Sorc for that too, Necromancers cast way too slow to be any useful as boss runners in my books. Anything less than 9 frame casting is too slow. For me it's 8 frames or bust.

Makes sense. I don't need a boss runner. I have a few other characters that are good at that. I figure the tele just to set me in the best position for certain quests and to escape if in trouble. The MF from Enigma will help too. I'm just a poor old character builder who enjoys new and interesting challenges. If I'm going to make something though, I like to learn about the character and who better to ask than you good folk

 

[BobCox]

Can you give some argumentation?

just look at them both and compare the teleport effects, I listed most in my post, it was in response to the idea the enigma is the only good Way to teleport and thus you could not use another armor.

Below are listed the mods on each that effect Teleport.

Puzzler
+30% Faster Cast Rate
+1 To All Skills
+70 To Mana
+35 To Energy
Level 11 Teleport (69 Charges)

Enigma
2 To All Skills
+45% Faster Run/Walk (this could effect how much you use it)
+1 To Teleport
15% Damage Taken Goes To Mana

seems clear to me..

I have seen BVC Teleport with it - SMASH (search on Google Videos with his name and BVC) used to post duels using Naj's on the switch. I was pointing out if you want a armor other than enigma its the way to go if you can afford to recharge

I know theres a great Fishy uber thread here somewhere with a guy running the UBERS with a Fishy and CB applying pack in record time and another with a Melee Sorc doing it very fast as well.

 

[stephan]

just look at them both and compare the teleport effects, I listed most in my post, it was in response to the idea the enigma is the only good Way to teleport and thus you could not use another armor.

Below are listed the mods on each that effect Teleport.

Puzzler
+30% Faster Cast Rate
+1 To All Skills
+70 To Mana
+35 To Energy
Level 11 Teleport (69 Charges)

Enigma
2 To All Skills
+45% Faster Run/Walk (this could effect how much you use it)
+1 To Teleport
15% Damage Taken Goes To Mana

seems clear to me..

Well it doesn't to me. This is not argumentation, I know the stats of Enigma and Naj's Puzzler by heart (and you skipped a rather important one of Enigma). I do not know why you prefer Naj's over Enigma. Personally, I can't think of any Naj/Armor combo that would beat Wizzy/Enigma/Spirit as far as teleporting goes.

So please some argumentation now.

 

[stephan]

You gave no points to argue with

I asked you a simple question: Why do you think Naj's is better than Enigma? You did not provide me with any answer to that. You wanted me to deduce the answer from giving me their stats as if I never heard of either item. Now please simply answer the above question.

You stated you had one in that you said " you skipped a rather important one of Enigma" but then did not state it?

It is simply too obvious to even mention it.

I was Arguing Enigma vs Puzzler as single Teleport item. and as a subpart of such items on a Necro and in specific as to a claim of if you don't use enigma you can't teleport effectively. You are now going off about a combination of 3 items?

Are you running around naked with your Naj staff? Or do you use items that compliment each other? You can never compare items individually if they don't go in the same equipment slot. You must look at combinations of items then.

You were not just arguing that Naj is ok to teleport with, but that it was better than Enigma. Again I ask you why you think that.

The last part of the post has nothing to do with anything, I asked you a simple question in a polite manner, I don't know why you are dodging it now. You were the one making the claim, "the burden of proof" as you put it, is on you.

 

[BobCox]

I asked you a simple question: Why do you think Naj's is better than Enigma? You did not provide me with any answer to that. You wanted me to deduce the answer from giving me their stats as if I never heard of either item. Now please simply answer the above question.

Yes, Thought on your part and a judgment is required, It does not have to agree with mine if you don't want to be correct.

It is simply too obvious to even mention it.

Ah one of those - Try this then look at the Level of Teleport, The FCR, and The Total Mana Each Adds to you Naked Char?
Now what did I miss?

Are you running around naked with your Naj staff? Or do you use items that compliment each other? You can never compare items individually if they don't go in the same equipment slot. You must look at combinations of items then.

NEVER? Read the Thread - and my first post in response to another it was not on how to teleport fastest on a non teleport char, it was on how to have effictive teleport as a necro without useing a armor slot for enigma and on what the best NAJ's set items are, in it I made a BOLD statment about the BEST TELEPORT ITEM IN THE GAME That seems to have got you attention, However;
I can compare individually quite easily by yes, timing teleports, number I can do in succession (up to the limit of 69 that was acknowledged in the first post and if you take more than 69 teleport to win a duel you are CHICKEN) and range of them in a game naked with both items, gives a clear winner - try it and see I have.

You were not just arguing that Naj is ok to teleport with, but that it was better than Enigma. Again I ask you why you think that.

1 to 1 comparison of teleport ability. Not to total ability's, not with items added in combo, which gives better teleport? See Premises and the definition of the word. Then read my posts in context in the thread. That was not my argument, Mine was specific to the thread and a 1 on 1 comparison of the items. You are trying to change my point to one you can win.

The last part of the post has nothing to do with anything, I asked you a simple question in a polite manner, I don't know why you are dodging it now. You were the one making the claim, "the burden of proof" as you put it, is on you.

Well at least this seems to be argumentation although "invisible obvious" and "decline to state" it make me wonder if you are running for office somewhere?

Do I expect people use NAJ's instead of Enigma all the time? No.
Did I say all BVC use it over Enigma no but I pointed out it was sometimes used as a alternative sorry if you only play with cookie cutters that all use the same duped equipment and inventory of 30/20/20s.
Is it the best single Teleport Item in the game - Yes.

 

[stephan]

Ah one of those - Try this then look at the Level of Teleport, The FCR, and The Total Mana Each Adds to you Naked Char?
Now what did I miss?

For one, that charges don't require mana and therefor the level of teleport doesn't mean a thing when using Naj's. The only other property on it that has baring to teleport other than the charges is the FCR. Luckily for you this works out in your favor.

Since you mentioned the mana and +skill of Naj's I wasn't aware you intended to make a comparison of teleport properties only.

I can compare individually quite easily by yes, timing teleports, number I can do in succession (up to the limit of 69 that was acknowledged in the first post and if you take more than 69 teleport to win a duel you are CHICKEN)

Since you seem to like to lecture about logic so much, I'm sure you know that the above is a good example of argumentum ad hominem. Whether I am a chicken or not has nothing to do with either one being better. I also like you to prove now that the breakpoint (to keep it in d2 terms) for being a chicken is at 70 teleports.

and range of them in a game naked with both items, gives a clear winner - try it and see I have.

Again I ask you, do you play the whole game just with a Naj's staff? What real value does your comparison have? Do you duel with just a Naj's staff in your hands? You don't need to open a game to know you teleport faster with 30 FCR than with 0 FCR.

1 to 1 comparison of teleport ability. Not to total ability's, not with items added in combo, which gives better teleport? See Premises and the definition of the word. Then read my posts in context in the thread.

Ok you are right now. But now you have defined the conditions so narrowly that it has become meaningless to be right. No one is using Naj's or Enigma just on their own.

Well at least this seems to be argumentation although "invisible obvious" and "decline to state" it make me wonder if you are running for office somewhere?

More ad hominem.

Do I expect people to run games to use NAJ's instead of Enigma? No.
Is it the best single Teleport Item in the game - Yes.

And now I'm going to argue that a rare staff of the magus with teleport charges is better (for the exact same reason as you) than an enigma and that people who use more than whatever amount of charges I get on my staff are chickens (which includes you). I also claim this for amus and circlets BTW, just so you know. 30 FCR is chicken too BTW, hah! Real men don't use more than 20.

No skip that. Actually, real men only walk, without a shield, barehanded. Did you ever see Dirty Harry teleport? I don't think so.

EDIT:

sorry if you only play with cookie cutters that all use the same duped equipment and inventory of 30/20/20s.

We weren't comparing price/legitness AFAIK.

 

[AnimeCraze]

If teleing is 1 of the ways you use to reposition yourself to avoid attacks (which it should be), reposition merc, or simply run a boss, then you need in order of hundreds, if not thousands of uses. Sorc players know this, and abuse it well.

And honestly, even if it is simply given Naj's staff vs Enigma, I will still pick enigma every time, at 0 FCR. Heck, even if all the armor reads is simply +1 teleport, and nothing else, I will still go with it. Mobility > all. With perfect play, you don't need resist, life, block, etc. if you have mobility, and enigma offers it better. (By definition of perfect play, I mean one that can minimize your chance to be hit, and as you are a caster, it should mean that you should never get hit.) That 1 single factor, to me, is enough to dominate anything that Naj's staff offers.

This though, is beside the point, as a goodness of an item does not only depend on the item itself, but also the items that supports it. ie. Given the proper support (in both skill and items), what can this item offer me. Otherwise, fort is useless as bare fist with 300ED is still bare fist. Atma's useless as you would be crazy to run up to punch to get amp triggered. (and the list goes on)

 

[Mad Mantis]

Cleaned some of the more useless posts out and probably should have done a bit more cleaning, but I’ll leave it like it is now.

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