First/Safe Char that's not a summonancer?

tuxor

Diabloii.Net Member
First/Safe Char that's not a summonancer?

Hey guys, I got tired of East, so I went to a private server for PvP, but I got tired of that, so I came here(no offence). Hardcore has always been interesting for me, and I feel like you get more of a teamwork kind of sense from it, as yes you can solo, but it's easier in a team. What I'm currently wondering, what kind of character should I make? I'm looking for something fun and safe, untwinked, that's not a summonancer of any kind. I have no problem with summonancers, I just can't fully enjoy them without Enigma, sorry.

Any advice is greatly appreciated,
Tuxor.

Edit: I'm thinking about a mauler, with a few extra points into summons and Hunger. What do you guys think? It'll be a little bit of a rough start, but I think I'll enjoy it.
 

SlickSam

Diabloii.Net Member
Well the HC char that I'm playing right now is a fire druid, and it's pretty fun. I switched over to east not long ago, so this char is untwinked, but can still deal out the damage. He's great at clearing groups in a second, and the few stragglers can be finished up in no time with a boulder. Another that is easy untwinked is a trapsin. Most people go with lightning traps, but you could always go fire traps to be more origional.
 

rachil0

Diabloii.Net Member
Goooo trappers! Why I like em (especially untwinked):

1. Very long range with LS.
2. Access to corpse explosion for elemental variety and wtfpwning dense crowds.
3. Excellent shoppable weapons in late NM (+2 all or +3 trap blade talons)
4. Can be made base str/dex even untwinked, and get large life bonus per vitality point invested. You can hit 1500 hp without much effort.
5. Dim vision effect (Cloak of Shadows) for controlling dangerous enemies
6. Cheapish class specific body armor runeword with very desirable mods (treachery breast plate)
7. Claw block for good block chance without a large stat point investment. 1+skills nets you 40-50% block.
8. Mindblast / physic hammer is like smite++. It hits groups and can convert you a new ally to hide behind.
9. Option to go either strong dual element (fireblast is synergized by EVERY non-blade trap and will hurt like fireball with +10ish skills) or strong summonable (shadow master) or strong single element (straight LS synergies). You can sort this out lategame (A1 hell or so) after you get a feel for it all. I like dual element the best.

Drawbacks:
1. need cbf, which you could get with rhyme but claw/claw is what you wanna do. try to luck out and get a ravenfrost =/
2. tough to get both IAS and FCR for good mindblast / trapping frames.
3. Very low mana, insight is a must-get. Cube runes to get that sol or get lucky. You will drink blues nonstop from 24-40ish.
4. Need to be a little creative in early game, killing speed zooms up mid NM through hell.

I have started every season with a bootstrap trapper, then gone orb/TK for my second build mfer. Death sentry should be the first trap you max, IMO.
 

PhatTrumpet

Diabloii.Net Member
Lightning Trapper, Javazon, and Hammerdin are the next three starter chars most people consider. I'm not a huge fan of Trappers, and I feel dirty every time I build a Hammerdin, so I usually go with the Javazon.

Some sort of Sorc build that can kill early on would also work if you're experienced enough with them to actually keep them alive. Lightning Sorc (with or without ES), Blizzard Sorc (with or without ES), and Meteorb (without ES) would all work.

If you want to get away from spellcasters, a Fire Claws Druid or an Elemental Zealot (Holy Freeze or Holy Shock) would work because they rely more on skills than on a sick weapon.
 

tuxor

Diabloii.Net Member
would a hardcore trapper be any different from a softcore one skill-wise? i probably won't be making it up to 90 too fast, anyone have any suggestions?
 

rachil0

Diabloii.Net Member
Let's say, done at lvl 79 (90 points to invest).

LS / shadow master build
------------------------
Shockweb prereq (1)
Fireblast prereq (1)
Max CBS (20)
Max DS (20)
Max LS (20)
One point into all shadow disciplines, except for venom (9)
Invest points in these as soon as they are available, and add them to your hotkeys. They're all useful (though mindblast replaces psychic hammer).
Finish shadow master last (19)

You can invest in CBS early to help you level from 12 to 24. Max DS next, it rules NM. In the second half of NM, max LS as your staple trap.

Dual Element trapping build
--------------------------
Max fireblast (20)
Max DS (20)
Max LS (20)
Max shockweb (20)
One point into all shadow disciplines except no venom, no SW, no SM. (7)
Rest of your points into CBS, or get a 1-2 point shadow master. She won't last long in a scrape but she will help you mindblast on occasion.

Max fireblast first - it's a really good leveling skill (decent damage and low mana cost). I'd keep it on your left click from den 'till deeds. It will continue to grow stronger as you synergize it with lightning traps. FB is not a miracle spell, but it will outdamage a shadow or a merc when it comes to lightning immunes.

With good gear and/or high levels, I'd recommend the dual element variation. Max every trap down the left side (100 point investment) and put 1 point into every shadow discipline (but venom). Let +skills boost your shadow master into a workable tank. Like valkyrie, she gets better and better equipment as you place more points into her. IIRC, casting her at slvl 16 or 17 is the sweet spot where she's gotten all elite gear. This is not as tough as it sounds, you can get +15-16 shadow disciplines with findable gear:

+6 claws (shopped shadow skills blade talons)
+2 armor (treachery)
+2 amulet (a magic or rare +2 sin)
+3 torch (if you permit yourself to trade for them - they are really quite cheap)
+2 hat (circlet)

This is good stuff, but I say still findable in a reasonable amount of time.
It may be a more realistic to not max every trap. Invest about 5 points into shadow master, and only 90 points into traps. I'd take points out of CBS, it is the least useful trap in my opinion. It has this reputation as a boss killer that IMO it doesn't deserve - it's unwieldly and not different enough from LS to justify maxing them both. Another place to skimp points is from all these shadow disciplines - you can rely on treachery to cast fade for you or find a claw that has +shadow disciplines/+fade staffmod, for example. Also, if you can find +shadow disciplines claws with +shadow master staffmod, you can save on prereqs.
 

Socialism

Diabloii.Net Member
This is an excellent post. I disagree with your appraisal of Charged Bolt Sentry, however -- it really is a ridiculously strong bosskiller even at low levels.

Most will find it quite crappy because they don't have positioning down-pat. With ~20ish bolts spinning out of it at VERY close range (i.e. most bolts hitting your target), most huge hp monsters become cakewalks (as long as they're standing in place, which is easy to accomplish with a recastable shadow master + merc).

The trick to trap positioning: right-click and hold your CBS on the ground (NOT ON THE MONSTER) and then quickly drag the pointer to a 10/2/4/8-o-clock position right up to the monster, and that's near-perfect positioning. Try it a coupla times and you'll get the hang easily.


Let's say, done at lvl 79 (90 points to invest).

LS / shadow master build
------------------------
Shockweb prereq (1)
Fireblast prereq (1)
Max CBS (20)
Max DS (20)
Max LS (20)
One point into all shadow disciplines, except for venom (9)
Invest points in these as soon as they are available, and add them to your hotkeys. They're all useful (though mindblast replaces psychic hammer).
Finish shadow master last (19)

You can invest in CBS early to help you level from 12 to 24. Max DS next, it rules NM. In the second half of NM, max LS as your staple trap.

Dual Element trapping build
--------------------------
Max fireblast (20)
Max DS (20)
Max LS (20)
Max shockweb (20)
One point into all shadow disciplines except no venom, no SW, no SM. (7)
Rest of your points into CBS, or get a 1-2 point shadow master. She won't last long in a scrape but she will help you mindblast on occasion.

Max fireblast first - it's a really good leveling skill (decent damage and low mana cost). I'd keep it on your left click from den 'till deeds. It will continue to grow stronger as you synergize it with lightning traps. FB is not a miracle spell, but it will outdamage a shadow or a merc when it comes to lightning immunes.

With good gear and/or high levels, I'd recommend the dual element variation. Max every trap down the left side (100 point investment) and put 1 point into every shadow discipline (but venom). Let +skills boost your shadow master into a workable tank. Like valkyrie, she gets better and better equipment as you place more points into her. IIRC, casting her at slvl 16 or 17 is the sweet spot where she's gotten all elite gear. This is not as tough as it sounds, you can get +15-16 shadow disciplines with findable gear:

+6 claws (shopped shadow skills blade talons)
+2 armor (treachery)
+2 amulet (a magic or rare +2 sin)
+3 torch (if you permit yourself to trade for them - they are really quite cheap)
+2 hat (circlet)

This is good stuff, but I say still findable in a reasonable amount of time.
It may be a more realistic to not max every trap. Invest about 5 points into shadow master, and only 90 points into traps. I'd take points out of CBS, it is the least useful trap in my opinion. It has this reputation as a boss killer that IMO it doesn't deserve - it's unwieldly and not different enough from LS to justify maxing them both. Another place to skimp points is from all these shadow disciplines - you can rely on treachery to cast fade for you or find a claw that has +shadow disciplines/+fade staffmod, for example. Also, if you can find +shadow disciplines claws with +shadow master staffmod, you can save on prereqs.


 

Zodijackyl

Diabloii.Net Member
Wind druid, you smack things with a club and get 25str, buy a scepter from akara for 350 gold, smack things with that till you get ice blast, level one ice blast and melee combo till you have wind attacks, and its easy from there.
 

rachil0

Diabloii.Net Member
Most will find it quite crappy because they don't have positioning down-pat. With ~20ish bolts spinning out of it at VERY close range most huge hp monsters become cakewalks.

The trick to trap positioning: right-click and hold your CBS on the ground (NOT ON THE MONSTER) and then quickly drag the pointer to a 10/2/4/8-o-clock position right up to the monster, and that's near-perfect positioning. Try it a coupla times and you'll get the hang easily.
I admit I haven't messed around much with placing these exactly. But even under the assumption that every bolt hits, it doesn't outdamage LS by all that much. The most common build is the 80 point LS-synergy trapper, with plus 10 trap skills you get:

CBS: 5 traps times 11 bolts, 4-532 each = 44-5852
LS: 5 traps times 1 shot, 8-5362

Even with all bolts connecting, CBS is not all that different from LS (10% better). IIRC the two traps cooldown times are the same, so that's a noneffect. I would imagine that the CBS traps would have more consistent total damage, however. (central limit theorem - sum distribution of many independent events approaches gaussian regardless of their independent distributions? rachbot off)

If you nail a boss with less than 11 bolts, you're certainly not coming out on top at all. And in general PVM play CBS is definitely worse because its bolts are absorbed while LS pierces. To make CBS comparatively better, you !have! to max fireblast, because FB synergizes CBS and doesn't synergize LS. Here's the numbers of the 100 point trapper (FB/SW/CBS/LS/DS) with +10 skills.

CBS: 4-708 times 11 bolts = 44-7788
LS: 8-5362

Once any sentry is maxed, I would almost always max one of the "chuckables" instead of maxing another sentry. It's additional active damage that complements your passive traps nicely (without chuckables, I think trappers get a little boring sometimes). Same idea as maxing timered and untimered skills and casting them independently instead of maxing two timered skills. Death sentry is the exception to the rule because it's so unique and tri-element.

it really is a ridiculously strong bosskiller even at low levels. .
Even at low levels I think FB is better though. At lvl 15, you could have 5 CBS traps doing 7 bolts of 1-21 damage (4 CBS, 6 SW, 6 FB), that cost 5*13=65 mana to drop. They'll shoot five waves and expire, leading to 35-735 damage, total, if every bolt connects with something.

With 16 points in fireblast, it does 45-65 and costs 4.8 mana. You could chuck 13 of em for 65 mana, and do 585-845. PLUS, it's an area of effect spell, so multiply that by however many monsters you can cram into a radius of 3.3 yards! I think FB gets no love because of its "time to flight" but in pure damage numbers it rocks. It demolishes A2 and A3 untwinked - herd up big groups of skeletons/flayers and use splash damage efficiently. Conveniently, it also trashes Andariel (naturally weak against fire).

That's a damage per mana cost argument, but you also can make damage / time arguments because fireblast can be chucked very fast using burst of speed (it's the same speed as normal attack) and CBS is limited by its slower cooldown. You probably won't have enough mana to spam either one willy-nilly though.

Man now I wanna make another untwinked trapper. :cloud9:

I like numbers.



 
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Jordanbcool

Diabloii.Net Member
I know its cliche but I really like my trapsin.

Any character with a good tank and ranged attacks are usually the best for starting out. You don't need good equipment to kill monsters and the tank provides a good distraction if you ever get swarmed.

Trapsins, bowazons, bonemancers, and windies are your best bet. They all have great ranged skills and good tanks to boot.
 

HCKull

Diabloii.Net Member
I say get a trapper as they are great. I had a lvl 91 trapper who died because I got impatient and screwed up.

Mind blast is one of your best skills. I had a pretty good trapper and on the way to Baal my merc and shadow died/took a nap and I was faced with 2 charging guys with dual weapons (lords I think) and they killed me. On my next one I invested in mind blast and set up my keyboard to provide easy access to mindblast. It was awesome. I could stop charging bad guys in there tracks and lay traps to kill them or run away. It also converts some of them so there focuse would be shifted from be. I also used it to help my tanks to take out the real tough monsters. It is a real life saver.


Insight is a huge plus for trappers. You can practically cover the whole game with traps. I was laying 2 ls and 1 ds on the edge of the screen and then advance to them and repeat. This gave 4 ls and 1 ds active constantly and worked great. I had no mana problems.

Then I went to hell with lots of LI monsters. The tactics that made normal and NM a breeze did not work. I replaced my beloved insight with infinity so my trapper tactics worked again. I solved the mana generation problem by boosting the size of my mana pool and using gear to increase my mana regeneration rate. I got a bunch of +huge mana charms, manald heal ring, +huge mana ring and my mana problems were pretty much solved. You also could carry an insight staff/polearm and use it to replentish your mana.
 

WrongdayJ

Diabloii.Net Member
I know I've posted this before in similar threads, but I gotta say it again. . .

I feel that the standard off-the-shelf Frost Zealot (or the Tesla-Froster variant) has got to be the easiest and safest HC character going.

They are not equipment dependant at all really because you rely on the added damage from the auras and the pulses.

The cold aura slows things down to a manageable pace, and because you don't need a tanking merc with the freeze aura it opens up the merc options.

Pally's can wear/use just about any item in the game.

The skill points couldn't be easier to allocate- max HF, Cold resist, HS, Lightning resist, 5 into Zeal, and the rest in Holy Shield. Voila! Instant Butt-kicker. You would have to be an absolute total dweeb to not be able to take this character (UNTWINKED) all the way through nightmare. Literally.

If you feel that this character is boring to play- which it's not- then use it as an MF mule. They do that really well, too.
 

NecromanSassin

Diabloii.Net Member
I know people will disagree with me, but I say Bonemancer. I have made three of them in Single Player and I'm currently going on into Hell with mine on USEast. They use curses to keep monsters away, have extra protection from Bone Armor, and can use Bone Wall and Prison if they are really unsure of themselves. If you're interested in playing with me, add me:

*Archeaon

Even though you probably started a character, good luck!
 
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DudSpud

Diabloii.Net Member
I know I've posted this before in similar threads, but I gotta say it again. . .

I feel that the standard off-the-shelf Frost Zealot (or the Tesla-Froster variant) has got to be the easiest and safest HC character going.
While I agree with you about the safety of these builds, I cannot agree that they are "the safest HC character going." IMHO the safest HC melee character going is the cookie-cutter Conc Barb (ala Hal's Stickied build), with high HP due to BO, non-interruptible attack (Baal runs are slow but no knockback makes them faster than any other (cheap) melee build I have tried), high def with Conc/Shout, and, most importantly, the 1 pt Beserk (with Shout synergy) makes short work of badies in IM areas. Couple this with Howl to break mobs and Taunt, both to bring the mob individuals back in for a beating and, maybe more importantly, to stop OK's from IM'ing and Gloams from lightning (not to mention NR points, hard or free from a nice Lore'd Helm), and I have to say this is the "safest", non-Necro HC character. OK, a Trappassin with Cos and MB is safer, but a Conc Barb is the safest melee character. IMHO, of course...
They are not equipment dependant at all .... The skill points couldn't be easier to allocate- max HF, Cold resist, HS, Lightning resist, 5 into Zeal, and the rest in Holy Shield. Voila! Instant Butt-kicker. You would have to be an absolute total dweeb to not be able to take this character (UNTWINKED) all the way through nightmare. Literally.
Yes, it is true that a Conc Barb is more dependent on the weapon for the damage than the Frost, Tesla, or Dual Paladin, but the fact that the Conc Barb can stand and tank, while the -Adin has to recover from KB, be more concerned about damge, etc., makes the Conc Barb the better HC melee character.

Oh, and I am speaking purely from an SP perspective. If you MP/Bnet party, I think the Conc Barb is even better because you have the big BO and Shout. The HF aura will chill all about, but it is only marginally better than the ubiquitous Meteorb with an HF Merc, and the damage from HL pulse is not that great unless the level is really high (eg dual Dream), or someone has Conviction.

However, for pure speed, I think a caster is better, eg Hammerdin, Trappasin, Windy, etc. All told, I think a Hammerdin (especially if untwinked with the ease of dual Spirits) is the most safe and fast.

OK, it is true that a well built Singer may have the "safest" time of all, but I do not have the patience for them. YMMV.


DudSpud



 

WrongdayJ

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree with you.

The Barb you mention would be a great build to make and play- in fact I have a build very similar to the one you recommend. It's a blast and you are right- it is very safe and easy to play.

The Pally still gets the nod (from me personally) because his main skills are available so early on. Let's say you decide to do a Fire-Froster. Zeal and Holy fire are available at Lv6. All the pulse aura synergies are available right off the bat. Maxing HF + Synergy gets you through Normal- should be all set with 1st aura + 1 synergy skill + 5 Pts in Zeal by about 40 or so. Starting on Holy freeze (my choice) or Holy shock then with it's synergy. 40 pts later you're DONE. The rest goes into either Holy shield or Salvation for the damage synergy to your other two Auras.

Really though- both builds have their merits and I think either one would make a great HC build.
 

squiggle

Diabloii.Net Member
Just being picky but zeal is availabe at lvl 12 not lvl 6 AFAIK.

Hmm If my summoner dies any time soon i'll take a try at the frozt zealot. Never tried one on sc either. Only had a fanat zealot.
 

WrongdayJ

Diabloii.Net Member
Ooppss. You're right. It is 12. Sorry about that.

Frosties are a blast and really, they are pretty much unstoppable until Hell. At that point I recommend an alternate damage source- either another aura or a descent amount of crushing blow. CB makes dealing with cold immunes alot easier.
The runeword 'black' is nice- it has a nice amount of CB and also has charges of Corpse Explosion for those times when you want to paint the ground red like a necro. :evil:
 
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