First piecemeal bit of Quietus's map guides

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
First piecemeal bit of Quietus's map guides

::Edit:: Gorny, Dredd, if it would be possible for one of you to sticky this for about a week, so that I can try to gather some feedback, I would appreciate it. I imagine one week would be enough time for me to gather the major share of the feedback I'll need on this small peice. Thanks!


As some of you may have seen me mention, I've been seriously considering working on a guide to all the maps in the game for quite a while. Unfortunately, life has been giving me a big kick in the junk lately, and I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and actually do anything about it.

I got a PM earlier this evening asking for advice, based on a comment I'd made a while back, and tried to explain what I meant - I rather like how it's turned out. So, instead of only sending it to that one person, I'm going to post it here, to get feedback on this one portion of it, and see if any of you can help me to refine it. If you come across any point that you had to read twice, please let me know. If at all possible, I would appreciate it if you would include some comment about how I could improve that, but even if you can't think of how I could improve it, let me know so that I can at least try and work that out.




That out of the way - this is my explanation of the "left" and "right" properties of maps. Some people know them as clockwise and counterclockwise, or get it partially correct by following one wall exclusively. This will, hopefully, be easy to understand for both those who know what I'm talking about, and new players alike.

In order to make things more recognizeable, I used the Durance of Hate level 2, as my visual reference - I've included slightly edited screenshots so that I can show visually what I'm talking about, as I find that helps. It's a commonly traversed area, and is one of the better known "left" pattern maps. I'll include a list of areas that are "left" or "right" after the explanation.


Step One

In this image, you can see the room you arrive in when you take the waypoint.The red arrow points to the one possible exit from this room - the other three walls are just that, walls. The first step is to identify the exit from this room, I'll refer to it as the "front".

Step Two

The same image, but now identifying the second step. Once you've determined the "front" wall, you can determine the direction you should be looking for. In the case of the Durance level 2, it's a 'Left' pattern, so you turn left (or, if you prefer, 90 degrees counter-clockwise). This is the direction that the room with the door to the next level will open in from.

Step Three

An image showing the room with the door to the next level. As you can see, as you're entering the room, you want to be looking for it to enter into a room that heads in that same direction determined in step 2. This pattern will always, without fail, hold true - even if the map is strange and doesn't work as nicely as you'd like, this relationship between the waypoint room and the 'next door' room will always, ALWAYS hold true.

Overview

This image is an overview of as much of that particular automap as I could fit onto my screen. The red arrow represents the fastest route I could have taken - rather counterintuitive, given the direction I'd determined. Sometimes, the maps can be strange like that, you'll eventually learn to recognize these from practice. However, note the blue arrows. The one near the waypoint points in the direction that I determined that we would enter the 'next area room' from, and the one near the 'next area room' indicates the actual direction you would enter that room from. Note how they are the same direction - once you understand this pattern, all you need to do for any area that uses it is remember left or right, and you've got it set.




And that's it! The "right" pattern is exactly the same, except that instead of turning left, you turn right. I find it fairly straightforward, and hopefully, others will as well. As I said before, if anything at all confuses you about this, please let me know.


Now, for a list of areas that are highly travelled, that use a left/right pattern. For any place that has a waypoint, this refers to the direction assuming you took the waypoint to get there, such as in the Durance, or Catacombs. Otherwise, it's from the entry point, such as each level of Countess's Tower, and Tal Rasha's Tomb.


Countess's Tower (all levels) - Left
Catacombs level 2 - Right

Sewers level 2 - Left
Sewers level 3 (entrance to Radament) - Left
Maggot Lair - Right on levels 1 and 2
Viper Temple (the entrance area here leads in three directions, use the wall that doesn't have a path as the back, and the middle path as the front) - left
Tal Rasha's Tomb (Same thing as Viper Temple) - left (to get to Duriel)

Flayer Dungeon - Left on levels 1 and 2
Durance of hate 2 - Left

Crystalline Passage (from waypoint, going to the Frozen River) - Right
Ancient's Way - Straight (use the same theory, but instead of turning left or right, it enters in the same direction you exited)
Worldstone Keep level 2 - Right


There are others, of course, though I haven't listed them - mostly because I can't remember offhand. All level of the Jail in act 1 follow patterns, as does ANY underground area in act 2. In act 3, the swampy pit would presumably follow a pattern as well, though I know of few people who go there to bother with it. Act four doesn't seem to have any areas with these patterns, and in act 5, any "ice cave" map follows a pattern like this. However, as these areas are less traversed, I don't go to them often enough to have them off the top of my head. All areas following these patterns will be included when I do the full write up of my guide, of course.
 

Zalcitabine

Diabloii.Net Member
Very good work - i think you might want to be more specific on these:

Maggot Lair - Right on the first two levels, then straight north to the top of the map on level 3 (that would be about straight right when entering the first room)

Tal Rasha's Tomb (Same thing as Viper Temple) - left --> is it the direction to Duriel (big tomb type) or to the room with the special chest and boss pack (small tomb type)? There's also another big tomb with a super unique mummy and the room containing the special chest.

Flayer Dungeon - Left on both levels: works for the first two levels, the last one, the maze, has 2 or 3 different patterns iirc.

You can also add that in act 5 frozen river, glacial trail and ancient's way are built more or less like a big quadrilateral form. Each side will either have the waypoint, the stair going to the next level, the stairs going to the previous level and the stairs going to the "ice cave".
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
Zalcitabine said:
Very good work - i think you might want to be more specific on these:

Maggot Lair - Right on the first two levels, then straight north to the top of the map on level 3 (that would be about straight right when entering the first room)

Tal Rasha's Tomb (Same thing as Viper Temple) - left --> is it the direction to Duriel (big tomb type) or to the room with the special chest and boss pack (small tomb type)? There's also another big tomb with a super unique mummy and the room containing the special chest.

Flayer Dungeon - Left on both levels: works for the first two levels, the last one, the maze, has 2 or 3 different patterns iirc.

You can also add that in act 5 frozen river, glacial trail and ancient's way are built more or less like a big quadrilateral form. Each side will either have the waypoint, the stair going to the next level, the stairs going to the previous level and the stairs going to the "ice cave".

Since I could still edit my post, I edited in the first three changes, thank you - you are correct, that was my mildly tired posting at work.

About the frozen caves in act 5, that falls under the "things that follow this pattern I'll list later". Because if you think about it, the quadrilateral form is precisely what I'm talking about here, in a slightly less obtuse way. In this case, say for the crystalline passage, if memory serves it's - Left for frozen river, right for arreat plateau, and straight for glacial trail. Either that, or switch glacial trail and arreat plateau. That will all be listed in the final draft of my full guide, but since A) I'm not 100% sure which is right and which is straight, and B) I felt it was better, for now, not to overload this with too much information and include only the rushing areas, I left those things out.

By the way, thank you. :smiley:

::Edit:: Actually, you bring up a good point. The golden chests in the tombs... I wonder if they follow a similar pattern? And I wonder if there's one for the Glacial Trail to find Bonesaw Breaker? I'll have to make certain I look into these for the final, complete draft.
 

Zalcitabine

Diabloii.Net Member
My pleasure. :smiley:

quietus said:
Left for frozen river, right for arreat plateau, and straight for glacial trail. Either that, or switch glacial trail and arreat plateau
Did you mean ancient's way? Because arreat plateau isn't built in the same way as the other two. Or maybe i'm just mixed up.

Zalcitabine said:
You can also add that in act 5 frozen river, glacial trail and ancient's way are built more or less like a big quadrilateral form. Each side will either have the waypoint, the stair going to the next level, the stairs going to the previous level or the stairs going to the "ice cave".
Edited my brain fart.

Nooooo! i tried making a picture of what i was trying to explain here but i failed miserably :shocked:

I can look all the caves in act 5 over the next few days to help find the patterns if you want.
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
Zalcitabine said:
My pleasure. :smiley:


Did you mean ancient's way? Because arreat plateau isn't built in the same way as the other two. Or maybe i'm just mixed up.


Edited my brain fart.

Nooooo! i tried making a picture of what i was trying to explain here but i failed miserably :shocked:

I can look all the caves in act 5 over the next few days to help find the patterns if you want.

Determining those patterns isn't particularly difficult - all I'll have to do is poke my head into each one in turn, right down left or right once.. I already know that this method works, I just never use those exits.

And arreat plateau is the place BEFORE Crystalline passage. It's (linearly) Bloody Foothills -> Frigid Highlands -> Arreat Plateau -> Crystalline Passage -> The Anya Quests -> Back to Crystalline -> Glacial Trail -> Frozen Tundra -> Ancient's Way -> Arreat Summit -> Worldstone Keep.

The Crystalline Passage offers : Waypoint (considered the starting point, as usual), Frozen River (to the right, it IS the right, that was a typo), Glacial Trail (straight), and Arreat Plateau (left). I just checked these myself, this IS the orientation for them.
 

Zalcitabine

Diabloii.Net Member
Nevermind, i just thought it was a typo because you grouped it with two interior-type levels. I was trying to complicate things.

I just did some runs in act 5 to hunt down patterns. I will do some more tomorrow too. Frozen river seems most often to the right, Ancients i am not sure yet.
 

patonis

Diabloii.Net Member
This image is an overview of as much of that particular automap as I could fit onto my screen. The red arrow represents the fastest route I could have taken - rather counterintuitive, given the direction I'd determined. Sometimes, the maps can be strange like that, you'll eventually learn to recognize these from practice. However, note the blue arrows. The one near the waypoint points in the direction that I determined that we would enter the 'next area room' from, and the one near the 'next area room' indicates the actual direction you would enter that room from. Note how they are the same direction - once you understand this pattern, all you need to do for any area that uses it is remember left or right, and you've got it set.
That what you call left pattern is very clear to me, but it doesnt help for what i asked you. Ok, we know if you leave the starter room west then you enter the last room southward, but how does this help us find out a short route to the "next area room" ?

You posted a tough map(good example). I have to sketches of this map, where you leave west and enter south. Each time the "next area room" is southwest from the starting room. Once it is a short way, other time a long way, but both lie southwest. I have given this west/south type combination a special name after how the entrance and exit room looks like. Wp in entrance room is on a platform and the exit room looks like an "U". Example of another combination of the total of 4 combinations is: South/East Entrance room exits to south. Wp on an isle with moat and you enter "next area room" east and there is always a platform there.

You didnt mention, which way you took to the exit on this particular map ? Did you take the red short way or the long way hugging the left wall ? That is the problem, if you hug the left wall then you get quickly to the "next area room" on my 2 maps(exact same entrances), but in your example it can take rather long if you hug the left wall.

I am interested in taking ALWAYS the short red way without maphack. :smiley: Question is now: Is there a fixed number of maps(like 5-10 versions of each of the 4 combinations, so total 20-40 maps) or are they randomly generated each time you create new game like a labyrinth ? The only sure thing we know is that what you mentioned above.


Check these images in the Link. The 3rd image shows extrem examples.
http://forum2.ingame.de/diablo2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=612055
 

IntelligentX

Diabloii.Net Member
Nice guide, I have to say :smiley:
Actually I have been a baal bot for a long time now - I have memorised most of the WSK level 2 maps, have ~90% accuracy to level 3, but unfortunately I have yet to memorise level 3 maps :undecided:
Although my English isn't that well, but I am also thinking to write a guide to teleport to WSK levels. Any ideas?
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
patonis said:
That what you call left pattern is very clear to me, but it doesnt help for what i asked you. Ok, we know if you leave the starter room west then you enter the last room southward, but how does this help us find out a short route to the "next area room" ?

You posted a tough map(good example). I have to sketches of this map, where you leave west and enter south. Each time the "next area room" is southwest from the starting room. Once it is a short way, other time a long way, but both lie southwest. I have given this west/south type combination a special name after how the entrance and exit room looks like. Wp in entrance room is on a platform and the exit room looks like an "U". Example of another combination of the total of 4 combinations is: South/East Entrance room exits to south. Wp on an isle with moat and you enter "next area room" east and there is always a platform there.

You didnt mention, which way you took to the exit on this particular map ? Did you take the red short way or the long way hugging the left wall ? That is the problem, if you hug the left wall then you get quickly to the "next area room" on my 2 maps(exact same entrances), but in your example it can take rather long if you hug the left wall.

I am interested in taking ALWAYS the short red way without maphack. :smiley: Question is now: Is there a fixed number of maps(like 5-10 versions of each of the 4 combinations, so total 20-40 maps) or are they randomly generated each time you create new game like a labyrinth ? The only sure thing we know is that what you mentioned above.


Check these images in the Link. The 3rd image shows extrem examples.
http://forum2.ingame.de/diablo2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=612055


I ended up taking the direction that my pattern suggested, and so I scouted out the southern wall (assuming that the bottom left is south for you). Once I found that the waypoint wasn't there, I booked it back down to the waypoint and searched for the unusual pattern there. Without maphack, there is only one way to be 100% perfectly accurate every time - and that's to memorize the maps. There are only 20-30 maps for any given area in the game, and if you'd like to try and memorize every single one, be my guest. I find that I only get one of these wonky patterns about 1/5 times, which is acceptable to me, considering it's also balanced by the times that I turn a corner and I'm there.

Now, this pattern helps because, while this map was one of the pain-in-the-rear ones, generally you'll find the 'next area room' very quickly with this method. It won't always give you an exact route, as the map that I showed illustrates, but it does it's job more often than not. The only way to be 100% perfect is to memorize the maps, which is too much trouble for me.

IntelligentX said:
Nice guide, I have to say
Actually I have been a baal bot for a long time now - I have memorised most of the WSK level 2 maps, have ~90% accuracy to level 3, but unfortunately I have yet to memorise level 3 maps
Although my English isn't that well, but I am also thinking to write a guide to teleport to WSK levels. Any ideas?
Ah, Baal, how fun you are to kill... :tongue:

Well, let's see. For WSK2, you may want to describe the pattern that I've laid out... if memory serves there's only one or two maps there that get strange on you, maybe three. Out of twenty, that's pretty good, and someone who does a lot of baaling will learn to recognize these - I'm happy now when I find those maps, because they're faster than some of the regular ones.

As for WSK3, I haven't yet found a pattern to this level. I tend to go based on instinct, which after thousands (literally -_-) of baal runshas served me well. If I can determine a pattern for areas like that (would also include catacombs 3, and other places), I'll be certain to let you know.
 

patonis

Diabloii.Net Member
There are only 20-30 maps for any given area in the game, and if you'd like to try and memorize every single one, be my guest.
Are you 100% sure of this ? This would mean, that if i take screenshot of every map i do, i will find 2 exact same maps after a while.
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
patonis said:
Are you 100% sure of this ? This would mean, that if i take screenshot of every map i do, i will find 2 exact same maps after a while.

Correct. If you run the same area over and over you'll see that they start repeating themselves after a while - screenshotting and studying, you can memorize the maps, if you like.
 

Vesio

Diabloii.Net Member
quietus said:
As for WSK3, I haven't yet found a pattern to this level. I tend to go based on instinct, which after thousands (literally -_-) of baal runshas served me well. If I can determine a pattern for areas like that (would also include catacombs 3, and other places), I'll be certain to let you know.
wsk level three is as you would call it a "left pattern". left from the way you come down the stairs.

also the halls of pain (the wp to nilithak) follows certain patterns as well, but they don't quite conform to what you descirbed here. if i remember correctly one wp location is a "left" while another is a "right".

Also i think it might be worth mentioning (as i didn't see it in your guide) that in durance of hate 2 each of the wp directions has a certain formation for the room that leads to the next level. not only does the direction lay the same but it is the same room every time. In your pictures when you come out of the wp facing that direction you will ALWAYS find a room that looks exactly like the one in which you ended up. That said there are four different entrance directions for the wp at durance 2, thusly 4 different exit rooms. I'll try to gather some pictures and show what i'm talking about.

Also maybe it would be prudent to say that on "left" pattern maps you will be turning to your characters left (towards the shield hand), or character right (toward the weapon hand) on "right" pattern maps. thus you say that as your character comes out of the waypoint he will turn to his left or right. By referencing everything to the character you eliminate confusion. You'd be pretty angry when your durance spawns the wp directly opposite the one you had in your pictures (there are four total one at each cardinal direction, you had the south) and then explored the whole level because you turned to your left (which would actually be character right in this case) and found the stairs just to your right.
 

patonis

Diabloii.Net Member
@Quietus
Correct. If you run the same area over and over you'll see that they start repeating themselves after a while - screenshotting and studying, you can memorize the maps, if you like.
Ok, i will just test this with one type of the 4 entrances until i find 2 same maps.

I ended up taking the direction that my pattern suggested, and so I scouted out the southern wall (assuming that the bottom left is south for you). Once I found that the waypoint wasn't there, I booked it back down to the waypoint and searched for the unusual pattern there.
Did you scout the big example map with following the outer walls of the level ?

@Vesio
You'd be pretty angry when your durance spawns the wp directly opposite the one you had in your pictures (there are four total one at each cardinal direction, you had the south) and then explored the whole level because you turned to your left (which would actually be character right in this case) and found the stairs just to your right
Are you trying to say that Quietus went right from character viewpoint on that big example map ? As i understand it he followed the left wall.
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
Vesio said:
wsk level three is as you would call it a "left pattern". left from the way you come down the stairs.

also the halls of pain (the wp to nilithak) follows certain patterns as well, but they don't quite conform to what you descirbed here. if i remember correctly one wp location is a "left" while another is a "right".
Are you saying WSK3 is related to the 'to wsk3' room on level 2? Because I haven't been able to determine a pattern for 3 based on anything on level 3 itself. I'll look into that, however. As for halls of pain, there are only three different maps for that, and they're all extremely easy to recognize. There is, however, a pattern for halls of vaught, based on a spiderweb pattern on the walls - I believe that's explained elsewhere on this site, but I'll be including it in the full version of my guide, when I write the rest.

As for your comments about character left/right, you are correct, and I should probably make that distinction. This is why I need feedback, because things that seem obvious to me, having done this for a very long time, might not be obvious to everyone else.

As for the stuff about the formation of the room, I dont' believe that that will add anything but confusion to my guide - Even I had to look twice to determine exactly what you meant, and as best as I can tell, you mean that the architecture of any room that opens in direction X will always remain that way on any map that opens in that direction. Ultimately, that isn't particularly helpful information, and adds nothing to the guide.



patonis said:
Did you scout the big example map with following the outer walls of the level ?

@Vesio
Are you trying to say that Quietus went right from character viewpoint on that big example map ? As i understand it he followed the left wall.
I scouted the example map by going directly to the left (from my character, as Vesio noted), which as the arrows show is what you refer to as 'south'. I followed that wall, and when I discovered that I had traversed the entirety of it and it hadn't revealed the way down yet, I headed back over across the map looking for irregularities - little peninsulas that shoot off in odd directions, like the one that I had to head down to find the exit in the 'overview' map. So you are correct, I scouted the left wall, and only after I found it to be a strange map did I take further actions.
 

Vesio

Diabloii.Net Member
@ quietus

I'm saying that after you come down the stairs into wsk3 turn to character left. You shouldn't have to much trouble finding the stairs to the throneroom.

and yes i mean architechture of the room. I thought it might be nice to include so people would know what they are looking for. and you aren't quite getting what i was driving at. So i'll try and explain again.

In durance of hate level 2 there are four possible waypoint location spawns. Call them north, south, east, and west. When you enter at the waypoint the stairs to level three are most reliably to your characters left. We already know this. When you find the room that the stairs are in it will be in one of four shapes depending on which waypoint location, but that it will ALWAYS be the same shape or architechture for a certain waypoint location. In your pictures of the souh waypoint location the stair room was in the shape of a sideways "u". Whenever you spawn the south waypoint your stairs to level 3 will be in "sideways u" shaped room. East waypoint stair rooms will always be rectangular with a raised rectangular platform of sorts. North waypoint stair rooms will be rectangular with a rectangular pit. West waypoint stair rooms will have a large dark rectangle filled with piles of bodies. And at risk of sounding like a broken record it will ALWAYS spawn this way. A south waypoint will NEVER have a rectangular stair room so you can bypass the ones you encounter. I use this to quickly identify if the stairs can be located in a certain section of the map, or if i can skip that part. Hopefully that clears up the confusion i caused. If not, well then i'll stop trying.

@patonis

No, I was trying to make the point that by saying "turn left" in durance 2 on a north spawned waypoint locale you would actually be turning character right, which is opposite of the way that you need to be going.
 

yuandy

Diabloii.Net Member
quietus said:
Viper Temple (the entrance area here leads in three directions, use the wall that doesn't have a path as the back, and the middle path as the front) - left
Tal Rasha's Tomb (Same thing as Viper Temple) - left (to get to Duriel)
My personal shorthand for Viper and Tal's Tomb as "left from centerline".

Tal's Tomb is slightly quirky because the staff room may spawn as a dogleg. It's the entrance to the staff room that follows the "left from centerline". If the staff room is a dogleg, that means that the staff chamber itself actually runs parallel to the centerline. This threw me off when I first started learning the map patterns.
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
Vesio said:
@ quietus

I'm saying that after you come down the stairs into wsk3 turn to character left. You shouldn't have to much trouble finding the stairs to the throneroom.

and yes i mean architechture of the room. I thought it might be nice to include so people would know what they are looking for. and you aren't quite getting what i was driving at. So i'll try and explain again.

In durance of hate level 2 there are four possible waypoint location spawns. Call them north, south, east, and west. When you enter at the waypoint the stairs to level three are most reliably to your characters left. We already know this. When you find the room that the stairs are in it will be in one of four shapes depending on which waypoint location, but that it will ALWAYS be the same shape or architechture for a certain waypoint location. In your pictures of the souh waypoint location the stair room was in the shape of a sideways "u". Whenever you spawn the south waypoint your stairs to level 3 will be in "sideways u" shaped room. East waypoint stair rooms will always be rectangular with a raised rectangular platform of sorts. North waypoint stair rooms will be rectangular with a rectangular pit. West waypoint stair rooms will have a large dark rectangle filled with piles of bodies. And at risk of sounding like a broken record it will ALWAYS spawn this way. A south waypoint will NEVER have a rectangular stair room so you can bypass the ones you encounter. I use this to quickly identify if the stairs can be located in a certain section of the map, or if i can skip that part. Hopefully that clears up the confusion i caused. If not, well then i'll stop trying.

@patonis

No, I was trying to make the point that by saying "turn left" in durance 2 on a north spawned waypoint locale you would actually be turning character right, which is opposite of the way that you need to be going.

Well, I looked into WSK3, and it seems as though you are incorrect. I found nothing suggesting a left pattern there, which in all honesty doesn't surprise me, considering the number of times I've run it. Perhaps you're referring to something that I'm not sure about.

I see what you mean regarding the architecture of the Durance, but I don't think that adding that information here would make it more complicated than is necessary. I may, however, add a section describing this in the full guide, because you are correct - it is helpful. I'll probably have it follow the part that I've written here directly, as a sort of 'advanced' thing, after people understand what I mean by left or right patterns.



yuandy said:
My personal shorthand for Viper and Tal's Tomb as "left from centerline".

Tal's Tomb is slightly quirky because the staff room may spawn as a dogleg. It's the entrance to the staff room that follows the "left from centerline". If the staff room is a dogleg, that means that the staff chamber itself actually runs parallel to the centerline. This threw me off when I first started learning the map patterns.
There are little complications in other areas, as well. Particularly the ice caverns. I'll include illustrations of these in the final version so that people can be prepared for the oddities. However, the halls leading into that dogleg does, indeed, follow the pattern correctly, so ultimately the 'left' direction holds true.
 

superdave

Diabloii.Net Member
i would love to see someone run a few of the areas a couple dozen times in normal with a fast character and post screenshots of the maps...let's see if there really are only x# of maps for tower lvl 1 etc.
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
superdave said:
i would love to see someone run a few of the areas a couple dozen times in normal with a fast character and post screenshots of the maps...let's see if there really are only x# of maps for tower lvl 1 etc.
Well, I'ma be doing some searching for a monarch tonight, so I'll probably be doing a bunch of Baal runs. I'll take a shot of WSK2 on each pass.
 
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